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A case for build and Legend diversity


Uete.3805

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I want to start acknowledging that Balance seems to be pretty central to the game's current live development, which is amazing.

Given that the devs are currently changing rarely used traits and skills, I think it's a good moment to bring back an issue with Revenant's baseline design: The lack of Legend flexibility. With every new elite spec batch, all other professions receive 6 new skills to play with. However, since the start Rev has been stuck with the same 5 skills per legend. I think it might be a good time to try to spice that up by including a new 4th utility skill to every Rev legend. This would allow us to swap a utility skill our build rarely uses with one that better reflects the needs of our build. Here are some examples that could be implemented to begin the discussion:

  • Assassin stance: Being an assassin, the kit is based on mobility, extra hits and life-stealing, but it lacks single target burst and vuln application.
    • "Reaper's mark" (inspired by Meditation of the Reaper in gw1): Mark your target for 5 seconds. Any incoming attack makes them Vulnerable. When the mark ends you steal life based on the amount of Vulnerability on the target. // The mark could be Shiro's own mark over the target's head.
  • Dwarf stance: It is a very utility heavy legend (and it is one of the best rounded up ones I think), but it's missing a bit of cc and could provide some revive potential to boost up the kit.
    • "Ogden's hammer" (inspired by a famous voice line in Old Lion's Arch, Ogden role as a monk in gw1 and Jalis use of "I will avenge you!" in the first game as well): Summon Ogden's Hammer to daze your enemies and partially revive your allies in front of you. // I envision this as a hammer of light falling right in front of you.
  • Demon stance: This one might be in serious need of a deeper revision, but I think it can be saved by providing a more damage-focused skill.
    • "Shadow spikes" (a callback to "Shadow Smash" from Mallyx): Summon demon spikes around you, immobilizing foes and applying more conditions the closer your enemies are. // Basically it's a PBAoE of dark spikes that immobilize and bleed all foes within 360 units, that additionally torments those within 240 units and burns those within 180 units.
  • Centaur stance: This legend has been recently updated (and it shows), but I think it could use a bit more boon and blind application.
    • "Ronan's light" (inspired by Ventari's friend): Reflect the sun's light with your tablet, blinding foes and giving boons to allies. If this skill is empowered burn your foes and give aegis to your allies. // A ray of light falls on the tablet and blinds nearby foes. Allies would get Regeneration, Protection and Resolution baseline. Serene Rejuvenation would give even more Resolution.
  • Dragon stance: This one's also pretty great as it is, but there's room to give it some more condition application and condition protection. Lore-wise, Facet of Nature would be the new skill, but the F2 should remain mechanically untouched and could be renamed "Prophetic echo" > "True words".
    • "Facet of Nature": Place the Facet of Nature on yourself to grant nearby allies resolution every few seconds.
    • "Nature unleashed": Consume Facet of Nature to send crystal thorns to your enemy. // The crystal thorns would be projectiles that apply bleed and poison.
  • Renegade stance: This legend is also missing some direct condi application and AoE strike damage, so I've come up with a hybrid warband spirit:
    • "Scorchrazor's Searing": Summon Kalla Scorchrazor to rain fire arrows on your enemies. // The spirit would fire 5 barrages of arrows in her area dealing damage and burning to all enemies within it every second.
  • Alliance stance: This one's also pretty well rounded, but could use some more tools for each of the heroes of the Alliance's roles:
    • "Pride of the Armada" (from the famous Luxon Armada): Instruct the Luxon Armada to fire at your location to damage, cripple and bleed your enemies (when no enemy is targeted). Instruct the Luxon Armada to fire at your target to damage, cripple, bleed and burn your target (when an enemy is targeted). // PBAoE damage and condis around the vindicator or single hit and more condis on a target. This would work well situationally based on the number of enemies around you.
    • "Saint's mantle" (regarding Saint Viktor's title): Protect yourself and nearby allies with barrier (when no ally is targeted). Shread your mantle to heal and protect with barrier a selected ally (when an ally is selected). // PBAoE barrier around the vindicator or single heal and barrier on an ally. This would allow for both aoe barrier application as well as single-target healing.

Ok, this took me way longer than expected. Let me know what do you think about the general idea and feel free to share your own new Rev utilities. Cheers!

Edited by Uete.3805
Adding a couple of references for the skills and clarifying text for the Mallyx one
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In shiro id change the elite itself, if prefer a jade tornado in the target area, each tic of the tornado deals dmg and stacks jade winds, at full stacks the next shiro skill petrifies the enemy. Itd give more dmg and cc in a more entertaining and probably better way.

Jalis id just strengthen chains, more range, not much but a bit, and longer duration, chains are one of the best soft cc out there so its good.

Herald, i like your change, but id prob change nature to make something like an entangle or cripple, like launch thorns and enemys hit get poison and trapped by vines, and make elite facet activation launch a glint phantom like rythlock does in the video, either pushing enemies away or maybe creating a path of fire on its way thatd be cooool.

Renegade, change the alac skill, make it so it makes your next kalla skill has no cd nor energy cost, or maybe make it lower the cd of your other f skills, and the trait it goes with maybe make kalla skills have less cd per kallas fervor stack you have.

Vindi. delete the 3 endurance traits, with 2 dodges they dont realy make much sense now. and replace with diferent traits.

Archemorus legacy. you strengthen arch skills, making them do more dmg and cc(maybe spear can knockdown or stun) and make vicktor skills weaken, no longer healing alies but you alone.

Vicktor teachings, strengthen vicktor, making its skills give alacrity ( maybe the heal and 2 more or dunno) and making archemorus less aggresive, he gives power and fury to his alies but deals less dmg.

Aliance in the mist. Each time you swap legends you gain 10 endurance, and each time you use an aliance skill you charge gs5 making it show the strengths of that aliance, arch skills make gs5 create bigger explosions while vick makes gs5 heal alies while it hits enemyes for a bit less dmg.

Lastly change energy mend, the skill that gave endurance at the cost of energy, and give each aliance an unique skill, arche a dmg one and vick a heal one, for non aliance legends it makes a combo hit of both arch and vick hitting enemies and spreading ashes that heal allies.

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1 hour ago, zaswer.5246 said:

Renegade, change the alac skill, make it so it makes your next kalla skill has no cd nor energy cost, or maybe make it lower the cd of your other f skills, and the trait it goes with maybe make kalla skills have less cd per kallas fervor stack you have.

 

So just remove the entire Alacrity Renegade (pAlacRen, cAlacRen, and hAlacRen) from the game? Great suggestion! Totally well thought out!

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2 hours ago, Uete.3805 said:

With every new elite spec batch, all other professions receive 6 new skills to play with. However, since the start Rev has been stuck with the same 5 skills per legend. I think it might be a good time to try to spice that up by including a new 4th utility skill to every Rev legend.

The issue is less that we're missing a 4th utility. The issue is more that we're missing an entire legend! Rev is the only core spec that has 20 utility/heal/elite skills. All the others have 27 total. We need one more entire core legend to bring us up to 25 to be somewhat on par with the other specs in terms of choice. I think fixed legend skills is fine provided we actually have near equivalent amount of skills, which we currently do not

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38 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

So just remove the entire Alacrity Renegade (pAlacRen, cAlacRen, and hAlacRen) from the game? Great suggestion! Totally well thought out!

power alac isnt good now, condi might be, and heal fits more with 2 heal legends like vick and ventari, we could just make rene a good condi dps, like whatbit is now, and not make it have a build based on 1 skill and trait that has no sinergy with anything else, i mean would it realy hurt? rene would be the same and vindi could get a good suport build finaly

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37 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

The issue is less that we're missing a 4th utility. The issue is more that we're missing an entire legend! Rev is the only core spec that has 20 utility/heal/elite skills. All the others have 27 total. We need one more entire core legend to bring us up to 25 to be somewhat on par with the other specs in terms of choice. I think fixed legend skills is fine provided we actually have near equivalent amount of skills, which we currently do not

fixed legends are fine, but i dont realy think one legend would do a huge diference, we already have legends for almost everything, heal with ventari and vick, power on shiro jalis and arche, condi on mallynx and kalla, and boons on glint, also shiro and kalla are kinda mixed, they work on both power or condi decently well.

Id much prefer that weapons only worked on cd and legen skills on energy, that would open much more possibilities to changes, easyer balance and smoother gameplay, rev has allwais been a kinda forced hibrid, and it doesnt realy work that well that way, making each elite focus on certain things and have clear diferences would make them better.

herald is a suport, rene a condi dmg dealer and vindi has the part of power with arch and the healing one on vick, make them work, make CoL changes and it will be awesome.

At most id like some kind of mist based skills, like no legend, just mists and magic.

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   While I support the idea of one extra utility to allow us some flexibility chosing (and to fix the order reset bug) I have 0 hopes that a company which essemble all the greatsword skills and most of the Alliance skills as a Frankenstein's monster collage of animations from other professions would spent a dime in creating nothing but a whole 7 new skills to suit each legend, and not only due the effort required just to design them (while working in a new expansion) but also because the sheer lunacy of having to deal again with re-balancing all the other skills and traits.  Seen how they are unable to properly test Vindicator's most basic mechanics trying to introduce 7 new skills would be just a nightmare...

Edited by Buran.3796
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6 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

power alac isnt good now, condi might be, and heal fits more with 2 heal legends like vick and ventari, we could just make rene a good condi dps, like whatbit is now, and not make it have a build based on 1 skill and trait that has no sinergy with anything else, i mean would it realy hurt? rene would be the same and vindi could get a good suport build finaly

Let's not remove build options simply because you "think it's a good idea" thanks

I don't care how "dead" power/condi/heal alacren are, they're still solid options that CAN be played even if your groups aren't using them. Don't limit my options because you want to add something else random in instead. The truth is there IS room for "a good support Vindicator" and they can still give it alacrity even if Renegade has it. We don't have to have it "only on one spec." It can be spread

I was also against the removal of Alacrity from Ventari since it killed AlacVindicator.

Edited by LucianTheAngelic.7054
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On 10/5/2022 at 10:48 AM, zaswer.5246 said:

In shiro id change the elite itself, if prefer a jade tornado in the target area, each tic of the tornado deals dmg and stacks jade winds, at full stacks the next shiro skill petrifies the enemy. Itd give more dmg and cc in a more entertaining and probably better way.

Jalis id just strengthen chains, more range, not much but a bit, and longer duration, chains are one of the best soft cc out there so its good.

Herald, i like your change, but id prob change nature to make something like an entangle or cripple, like launch thorns and enemys hit get poison and trapped by vines, and make elite facet activation launch a glint phantom like rythlock does in the video, either pushing enemies away or maybe creating a path of fire on its way thatd be cooool.

Renegade, change the alac skill, make it so it makes your next kalla skill has no cd nor energy cost, or maybe make it lower the cd of your other f skills, and the trait it goes with maybe make kalla skills have less cd per kallas fervor stack you have.

Vindi. delete the 3 endurance traits, with 2 dodges they dont realy make much sense now. and replace with diferent traits.

Archemorus legacy. you strengthen arch skills, making them do more dmg and cc(maybe spear can knockdown or stun) and make vicktor skills weaken, no longer healing alies but you alone.

Vicktor teachings, strengthen vicktor, making its skills give alacrity ( maybe the heal and 2 more or dunno) and making archemorus less aggresive, he gives power and fury to his alies but deals less dmg.

Aliance in the mist. Each time you swap legends you gain 10 endurance, and each time you use an aliance skill you charge gs5 making it show the strengths of that aliance, arch skills make gs5 create bigger explosions while vick makes gs5 heal alies while it hits enemyes for a bit less dmg.

Lastly change energy mend, the skill that gave endurance at the cost of energy, and give each aliance an unique skill, arche a dmg one and vick a heal one, for non aliance legends it makes a combo hit of both arch and vick hitting enemies and spreading ashes that heal allies.

Personally I think they should also update the visuals on a few of the legends, like for example jalis is fine. But shiro and mallyx feel dated. Glint does as well and when compared to vindicator and renegade these effects lag behind pretty hard... Id like to see them get touched up with more animations and cool effects to match the current vision of class design on a visual standpoint.

I still feel like glint should be reworked as well shiro, but Im fine with their current design. Though your ideas are neat..

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