Missing professions and class themes.

[Scalacious.4139]

11 minutes ago, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

Yeah what Guild Wars 2 clearly is lacking:

imagine a profession, that doesn't fight face to face or fair and square.

A deadly acrobatic masters of shadow and stealth, that will ambush you unexpecetly with high burst and ticking poisons

someone how depends more on mobility than a straigth up defensives and has more tools in doing so than other professions.

 

Sounds a bit like Thief, only viable

That is thief. Everything you said. And thief is viable.

[RadiantWolf.2058]

A holy cloth wearing "priest" type. I know Guardian is kinda close but it's more like a spellblade or knight.

[AzureTerra.1642]

On 10/13/2022 at 9:13 PM, Bastien.1386 said:

- Dragoon (FF14 like. Lots of jumps, dragons, etc)
 

I'd love to see an actual Dragoon style class with a set of combat bonuses tied to your choice of mount and the possibility to remount in combat or places not normally mountable for a short duration (such as the elite skill)

 

[Tails.9372]

The classical western outlaw gunslinger, I'd love for thief to get an e-spec that fills that role as nothing the profession currently has access to really does.

As for how they could implement it: They could give the spec an OH focus (used as a brass knuckle) and something like a (initiative based) "dual pistol" spec mechanic weapon (like how bladesworn essentially got another 2h sword) where 1-5 count as "Dual Wield" skills with a gameplay focus on fast paced sustained run and gun gameplay at the cost of your ability to go into stealth (with both spec mechanic weapon skills and skills / traits which would otherwise apply stealth applying revealed instead).

[draxynnic.3719]

15 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

The classical western outlaw gunslinger, I'd love for thief to get an e-spec that fills that role as nothing the profession currently has access to really does.

As for how they could implement it: They could give the spec an OH focus (used as a brass knuckle) and something like a (initiative based) "dual pistol" spec mechanic weapon (like how bladesworn essentially got another 2h sword) where 1-5 count as "Dual Wield" skills with a gameplay focus on fast paced sustained run and gun gameplay at the cost of your ability to go into stealth (with both spec mechanic weapon skills and skills / traits which would otherwise apply stealth applying revealed instead).

There's a part of me wondering if that could be done with ranger. The 'western' theme is, after all, generally based on having mostly wilderness and pastureland with the odd small township.

[Scalacious.4139]

15 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

The classical western outlaw gunslinger, I'd love for thief to get an e-spec that fills that role as nothing the profession currently has access to really does.

Like draxynnic, I think that the ranger would be a better fit for the gunslinger. Thief allready has pistols. I can picture an oulaw with a gun in one hand and a torch or tomahawk in the other, with a trusty coyote, vulture or armadillo by his side 😄

[Wolfshade.9251]

Pyromaniac - a thief with offhand torch. I just want to rob people and set them on fire while laughing like a maniac as I disappear into stealth.

[Scalacious.4139]

20 minutes ago, Wolfshade.9251 said:

Pyromaniac - a thief with offhand torch. I just want to rob people and set them on fire while laughing like a maniac as I disappear into stealth.

Setting people on fire and vanishing sounds like the mesmer torch 😄

[Gibson.4036]

6 hours ago, Scalacious.4139 said:

Setting people on fire and vanishing sounds like the mesmer torch 😄

Laughing like a maniac also sounds very Mesmer

[VocalThought.9835]

On 10/13/2022 at 6:13 AM, Bastien.1386 said:

For me it would be these types of classes:

- Bard and/or Dancer ( FF14, Aion's Songweaver or Lost Ark's Bard)
- Monk (Lost Ark/Diablo),
- Summoner (like Lost Ark, FF14 or Aion),
- Druid (shapeshifting, nature damage skills, etc)
- Dragoon (FF14 like. Lots of jumps, dragons, etc)
 

I think the Bard/Dancer is the Mesmer with Virtuosos/Mirage elites.

Monk seems to be the Revenant with Staff

Summoner is definitely the Revenant with Renegade

I hope they give Shapeshifter to a new Ranger Elite.

Dragoon, I see tied into the Revenant Hearld.

[Dadnir.5038]

Missing profession and class theme...

- A song based profession/theme is definitely missing (It could be easily applied to most of GW2's professions thought. Mesmer naturally appeal to the theme but I'm not sure how it would work with shatters. Revenant with their upkeep would work wonder (imagine a theme song for each legend!) Warrior as a legionnaire. Necromancer as a banshee... etc.

- A proper Ice mage. (No I'm not gonna call a water elementalist a Ice mage)

[Gaiawolf.8261]

MONK

Guardian has paladins covered, but the first GW also had monks with light armor, similar powers, less weapon use, and more spells. Firebrands came closest to this, which is why I loved them, but the reworked version just can't access tome skills enough to continue capturing the feel. Practically requiring an axe for any DPS or hybrid build doesn't help. I miss my smiting Monk/Elementalist from GW, or any other priest/monk archetype.

DRUID

The classic shapeshifting kind.

SPEARMAN

Okay, maybe not a full class, but after 10 years why can't we get a single class that can keep its feet dry while wielding the most versatile, iconic, widespread, and popular hand-to-hand weapon in all of history, by far: the spear.

[Asum.4960]

I don't think it's so much what GW2 is missing, but how it's executing what it has. 

As seen in this thread, there is almost always something "kind of like x" in the game - just not implemented in a satisfactory way, or with too limited appeal. 

Anet tries to be too special and different in that regard for their own good. 

These more generic, broadly recognizable and appealing archetypes/themes are so for a reason. 

 

Sure, something like Renegade vaguely represents some Ritualist influences, but summoning some Charr's of the Razor Warband doesn't and never will have the same broad appeal of summoning Spirits of Agony, Destruction, Anguish, Pain, Life, etc. It doesn't fulfil the Ritualist fantasy. 

This pretty much goes for most things that are "we kind of have x". They are too subverted and trying to be too special, rather than broadly appealing and satisfying a general theme.

 

Then there are things that people enjoy thematically that are pretty much in the game, like Minion Mancer, which in turn just aren't there mechanically. 

 

Lastly, ironically in large part to the specialisation system, there is a severe lack of specialisation. Sure, things like Blood/Death/Curse Magic and Fire/Water/Air/Earth Magic for example exist ofc - but you can't ever be a "Blood Mage" or an "Ice Mage" and so on in GW2. You can't specialize.

 

 

I think Anet really missed the boat with Elite Specialisations in those regards, at least in many cases.

I think many players share my feelings about the idea of "Elite Core lines" - Elite Specialisations as a vehicle for players to properly specialise into/double down on what they like mechanically and or thematically about the Professions they already enjoy.

Which imo would also have been vastly easier to make than the trying too hard to be special thing. 

A few theme examples of this are Daredevil being Acrobatics+, Reaper being Soul Reaping+, Mechanist being Inventions+, Druid being Nature Magic+, Mirage being Illusions+, Tempest being Air+.

Of course design limitations like Ele, at least so far, always having to feature all Elements equally, doesn't allow even these to be translated mechanically to their full potential in most cases - but generally people view these specs fairly favourably when it comes to their theme, the concept, the fantasy they are trying to sell. 

 

Meanwhile when people first hear or see "Dragonhunter", "Catalyst", "Willbender", "Harbinger", "Virtuoso", "Renegade", "Vindicator" and co., there isn't really anything that pops into mind. There is no broadly appealing theme or fantasy they are selling. They aren't inspiring.

While they are not without redeeming thematic qualities ofc (and putting a transformative spin on an existing class can sometimes work really well too, if the concept, theme and mechanics are exceptionally strong), I'm pretty sure most people would have much rather had a Zeal+ Zealot, specializing further into Symbol and Spiritual Weapon gameplay and themes, rather than some "Willbender" with "Flames", a squishy but sustainy Blood Magic+ Gun/Crossbow slinging Warlock with Blood Sacrifices over a Blighted Harbinger of.. what exactly? (or Blood Mage/Knight, Wraith, etc:), a proper Ritualist for Renegade, or have the Fire/Ice/Earth etc. Mage fantasy fulfilled, and so on. 

 

It's a bit strange (and in some ways frustrating) that we largely got what feels a bit like the "we are kind of running out of ideas here, Specialisations", before the Elite versions of what's already there and liked by people, to actually specialise into. 

Many players are clamouring for many of these classic themes and fantasies that a lot of the core professions represent, but often can't sufficiently or at all execute or specialize into, to explore for a decade now. One would think it wise to cover those predominantly, before transitioning into exploring niche concepts or the subversion of those cores.

 

TL;DR:

If you want to know what's missing in GW2, you largely need look no further than the core lines. They were picked as strong thematic pillars for the professions for a reason. Actually allow us to specialize into those.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Gaiawolf.8261]

11 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

I don't think it's so much what GW2 is missing, but how it's executing what it has. 

As seen in this thread, there is almost always something "kind of like x" in the game - just not implemented in a satisfactory way, or with too limited appeal. 

Anet tries to be too special and different in that regard for their own good. 

These more generic, broadly recognizable and appealing archetypes/themes are so for a reason. 

 

Sure, something like Renegade vaguely represents some Ritualist influences, but summoning some Charr's of the Razor Warband doesn't and never will have the same broad appeal of summoning Spirits of Agony, Destruction, Anguish, Pain, Life, etc. It doesn't fulfil the Ritualist fantasy. 

This pretty much goes for most things that are "we kind of have x". They are too subverted and trying to be too special, rather than broadly appealing and satisfying a general theme.

 

Then there are things that people enjoy thematically that are pretty much in the game, like Minion Mancer, which in turn just aren't there mechanically. 

 

Lastly, ironically in large part to the specialisation system, there is a severe lack of specialisation. Sure, things like Blood/Death/Curse Magic and Fire/Water/Air/Earth Magic for example exist ofc - but you can't ever be a "Blood Mage" or an "Ice Mage" and so on in GW2. You can't specialize.

 

 

I think Anet really missed the boat with Elite Specialisations in those regards, at least in many cases.

I think many players share my feelings about the idea of "Elite Core lines" - Elite Specialisations as a vehicle for players to properly specialise into/double down on what they like mechanically and or thematically about the Professions they already enjoy.

Which imo would also have been vastly easier to make than the trying too hard to be special thing. 

A few theme examples of this are Daredevil being Acrobatics+, Reaper being Soul Reaping+, Mechanist being Inventions+, Druid being Nature Magic+, Mirage being Illusions+, Tempest being Air+.

Of course design limitations like Ele, at least so far, always having to feature all Elements equally, doesn't allow even these to be translated mechanically to their full potential in most cases - but generally people view these specs fairly favourably when it comes to their theme, the concept, the fantasy they are trying to sell. 

 

Meanwhile when people first hear or see "Dragonhunter", "Catalyst", "Willbender", "Harbinger", "Virtuoso", "Renegade", "Vindicator" and co., there isn't really anything that pops into mind. There is no broadly appealing theme or fantasy they are selling. They aren't inspiring.

While they are not without redeeming thematic qualities ofc, I'm pretty sure most people would have much rather had a Zeal+ Zealot, specializing further into Symbol and Spiritual Weapon gameplay and themes, rather than some "Willbender" with "Flames", a squishy but sustainy Blood Magic+ Gun/Crossbow slinging Warlock with Blood Sacrifices over a Blighted Harbinger of.. what exactly?, a proper Ritualist for Renegade, or have the Fire/Ice/Earth etc. Mage fantasy fulfilled, and so on. 

 

It's a bit strange (and in some ways frustrating) that we got what feels a bit like the "we are kind of running out of ideas here, Specialisations", before the.. well, Specialisations of what's already there and liked by people, to actually specialise into. 

 

TL;DR:

If you want to know what's missing in GW2, you largely need look no further than the core lines. They were picked as strong thematic pillars for the professions for a reason. Actually allow us to specialize into those.

Jumping off this, just the names for some of these specializations goes against broadening appeal or giving us a familiar archetype to latch onto. Certain especs like Druid, Chonomancer, Mechanist, and even Spellbreaker are both familiar, thematic, and descriptive. I mostly know what these specs are about before having to dive in. Names like Mirage, Firebrand, Reaper, are kinda still descriptive, but I also like how they jump into the game lore to identify them. They just lose a bit out of context when trying to pick a class. But names like Vindicator, Scourge, Virtuoso, Catalyst? I have no idea what the hell these even mean without further reading.

It's one thing if selecting and going in on these classes immerses you in the game lore, but it really doesn't. That part is entirely too easy to miss.

[draxynnic.3719]

I think there is a degree of truth that GW2 has a lot of 'kind of like...' things that miss the mark in the eyes of many because they tried a little too hard to Do Their Own Thing and left people unsatisfied. It was an approach that worked well for them in GW1, but in GW2 they've started taking it a bit too far.

Renegade is a good example. Mechanically, it's about as close to ritualist as revenant can be without introducing a fifth core legend or something. Thematically...well, after sacrificing all the god stuff in the name of making player professions race-agnostic, the Kalla legend is very overtly a Charr ritualist. Meanwhile, I'm envious of the NPC ritualists in End of Dragons, which could have been made into an elementalist specialisation or something (ever noticed that apart from the one lore NPC claiming that catalysts are frontline soldiers, there are no human NPC catalysts, despite most other EoD elite specs being represented? Ritualists fill the role elementalist bosses would otherwise fill until you get to Wardens and corrupted Saltsprays).

I disagree with the idea that you can't specialise, though, with the exception of elementalist due to the whole attunement thing. You can absolutely make a blood necro with similar themes to a GW1 blood necro if you know what you're looking for. There's room for expansion, since you can't have every skill being some form of life steal or blood-related skill, but you can get pretty close if you know what you're looking for.

(As an aside, I think Tempest is more Water+ than Air+. Tempest is largely oriented towards supporting allies and, when it does focus on damage, it's often over a wide area and at close ranges. Air+ would, in my mind, have more of a single-target focus, possibly at long range.)

[Kodama.6453]

31 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

(As an aside, I think Tempest is more Water+ than Air+. Tempest is largely oriented towards supporting allies and, when it does focus on damage, it's often over a wide area and at close ranges. Air+ would, in my mind, have more of a single-target focus, possibly at long range.)

To be fair, that is once again up to interpretation and what someone is focusing on. Tempest is very support oriented and close range, these are very fair observations about the gameplay aspect of the elite spec.

But if we start looking at the elite specs through this "core specialization+" lens, then you can also approach it from a thematical point of view. And thematically, tempest really feels more like air+ to me personally.

Both, the warhorn as the weapon and the shouts as the utility skills, feel a bit more appropriate for an air magic thematic than for water magic, at least from my point of view. The spec is also called..... tempest.... which basically already connects it to air magic with the name alone.

Several interpretations are viable here and can coexist, this is really more of a thought experiment for fun and not a design truth.

________________________________________________

But this lens is quite fun to think about for me currently, so I would like to mention some thematical hooks I could imagine for some classes based on that premise:

• Engineer: A chemical trapper, similar to Caustic from Apex Legends or Viper from Valorant. Hiding in poisonous gas clouds and preparing the battlefield with devices to spread their deadly concoctions. Represents alchemy+.
• Guardian: Inquisitor archetype, a guardian who punishes foes with holy flames. Represents zeal+.
• Warrior: Warlord, a supportive elite spec which leads their allies to victory with a waving banner (staff as their weapon with banner skin). Represents tactics+.
• Mesmer: A spec which tries to control enemies with extreme mental pressure. Uses a hammer to shatter the mind of their enemies. Represents domination+.
• Thief: A swindler archetype which focuses on distraction and sowing confusion among enemies, which can create clones of itself. Represents trickery+.

[draxynnic.3719]

The term 'tempest' really only points to storms, and Glyph of Storms demonstrates that a storm can be associated with any element. In reality, sure, every type of storm normally involves winds, but in some cases the wind is being stirred up by other things that are going on rather than the other way around - add precipitation to a tempest, and most people would consider the resulting storm to be more water-oriented than air-oriented if aligning it to one of the four elements. And warhorn skills certainly don't feel any more air-oriented to me than any other elementalist weapon (except staff, because staff air is just bad).

Water is also the attunement normally associated with healing (including regeneration), condi cleansing (along with fire), chill, and spreading auras. What is Tempest most associated with, once you go past overloads? Healing, including regeneration, spreading auras (shouts let you do it without Powerful Auras), and boons. There's even a trait in Tempest that triggers on attuning to water. 

Air, in both games is normally associated with a relatively single-target focus by elementalist standards, CC (including blind as well as hard CCs) and mobility, with GW2 introducing an association with critical hits. Tempest has some mobility aspects. 

If someone was to make a water-themed elementalist, Tempest is pretty clearly the option to go for, at least if you're thinking about the healing-oriented GW2 interpretation rather than the ice-oriented GW1 interpretation. Now, one could argue that power tempest is air-oriented, but that's primarily because of the interaction between Fresh Air and air overload being the best overload for power damage.

Now, I don't disagree that the 'core traitline+' approach is an interesting one for coming up with ideas, but I just don't see an elite specialisation that has been primarily associated with support being Air+.

[Kodama.6453]

@draxynnic.3719It still seems to me that even Anet considers the term tempest to be more closely related to air thematically, tho. There are quite some hints.

• Tempest artwork is showcasing an air-magic using tempest with lightning and wind
• their armor skin, tempest's loop, has wind and lightning effects only, so it just focuses on the air magic attribute
• same for the weapon skin, The North Wind, it has even wind in the name and clearly is designed after the name
• superior rune of the tempest shows a cloud with a lightning bolt

Really, the entire symbolism Anet has chosen for the tempest in every aspect is exclusively using the air magic thematic as far as I have seen.

So maybe tempest is just breaking out a bit of this "air magic is about CC, mobility and critical strikes" thematic and is showcasing how air magic can get used in other ways, instead of continuing hard fixing air to it?

Honestly, I think showcasing these elements used in "non-traditional ways" is even more interesting. Alchemy has been the same for engineer. It used to have way more variety in the past, by being associated not only with boons and condi cleanse, but also with damage (both condition and power damage), boon removal (acidic elixirs), defense, etc. But after the big specialization overhaul, alchemy got focused entirely on boons and condi cleanse.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

deleted 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Felices Bladewing.3914

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

@draxynnic.3719It still seems to me that even Anet considers the term tempest to be more closely related to air thematically, tho. There are quite some hints.

• Tempest artwork is showcasing an air-magic using tempest with lightning and wind
• their armor skin, tempest's loop, has wind and lightning effects only, so it just focuses on the air magic attribute
• same for the weapon skin, The North Wind, it has even wind in the name and clearly is designed after the name
• superior rune of the tempest shows a cloud with a lightning bolt

Really, the entire symbolism Anet has chosen for the tempest in every aspect is exclusively using the air magic thematic as far as I have seen.

So maybe tempest is just breaking out a bit of this "air magic is about CC, mobility and critical strikes" thematic and is showcasing how air magic can get used in other ways, instead of continuing hard fixing air to it?

Honestly, I think showcasing these elements used in "non-traditional ways" is even more interesting. Alchemy has been the same for engineer. It used to have way more variety in the past, by being associated not only with boons and condi cleanse, but also with damage (both condition and power damage), boon removal (acidic elixirs), defense, etc. But after the big specialization overhaul, alchemy got focused entirely on boons and condi cleanse.

The main artwork has what appears to be a massive black cloud in the background. Sure, thunderstorms have lightning. It's the defining feature. But you know what else they have? Lots and lots of rain. The warhorn being called the North Wind is evoking an association which most Northern Hemisphere players are going to have with winter storms as well, and if you look closely at it, this is backed up by its appearance: there is a distinct secondary theme of ice and snow on the weapon, especially the underside, which looks a lot like a stream of water was blown along the underside of the horn and then flash-frozen. From memory, Tempest's Loop has a bit of a cloud inside the loop as well, but I'm not on my gaming computer to double-check.

Thunderstorms have lightning, but what they primarily bring is rain. Often life-giving rain, if there isn't too much of it.

Tempest fits that theme. Yes, it can be destructive, and that destruction can come in the form of lightning (and in fire and stone because hey, that's how elementalist is designed). But when you look past the bluster and at what it actually does? It's primarily an embodiment of the same 'lifegiving rain' theme as GW2's interpretation of water. Like I said, it even has a trait that triggers when entering water attunement, which is something you'd otherwise only expect from a water trait. It has a trait that generates frost auras, while shocking aura is the elemental aura that tempest has least access to. It's water+, but because it's an elementalist specialisation, it has things in it that cater to all four.

PS: Just loaded up and checked in-game. There is definitely a cloud inside that loop.

Really, your argument would be akin to engineer getting an elite spec that is focused on power damage and has an entire row of traits based around explosions, and then people say that it's alchemy+ because the specialisation has a gas mask skin and fluff about how it experiments with formulating new explosives in a chemistry lab.

Edited December 7, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Kodama.6453]

36 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The main artwork has what appears to be a massive black cloud in the background. Sure, thunderstorms have lightning. It's the defining feature. But you know what else they have? Lots and lots of rain. The warhorn being called the North Wind is evoking an association which most Northern Hemisphere players are going to have with winter storms as well, and if you look closely at it, this is backed up by its appearance: there is a distinct secondary theme of ice and snow on the weapon, especially the underside, which looks a lot like a stream of water was blown along the underside of the horn and then flash-frozen. From memory, Tempest's Loop has a bit of a cloud inside the loop as well, but I'm not on my gaming computer to double-check.

Thunderstorms have lightning, but what they primarily bring is rain. Often life-giving rain, if there isn't too much of it.

Tempest fits that theme. Yes, it can be destructive, and that destruction can come in the form of lightning (and in fire and stone because hey, that's how elementalist is designed). But when you look past the bluster and at what it actually does? It's primarily an embodiment of the same 'lifegiving rain' theme as GW2's interpretation of water. Like I said, it even has a trait that triggers when entering water attunement, which is something you'd otherwise only expect from a water trait. It has a trait that generates frost auras, while shocking aura is the elemental aura that tempest has least access to. It's water+, but because it's an elementalist specialisation, it has things in it that cater to all four.

PS: Just loaded up and checked in-game. There is definitely a cloud inside that loop.

Really, your argument would be akin to engineer getting an elite spec that is focused on power damage and has an entire row of traits based around explosions, and then people say that it's alchemy+ because the specialisation has a gas mask skin and fluff about how it experiments with formulating new explosives in a chemistry lab.

It seems we reach a point again where we just see thematics entirely different in repesentation of a spec.

Can you truly and honestly tell me that when you look at this artwork here and get asked if this is an air elementalist or a water elementalist without having prior knowledge about tempest, that you would decide to call this a water elementalist? I really can't see that.

All I see is wind and lightning. Not even a single droplet of the healing and living giving rain you mention. Sure, storms have rain and that can also explain the healing capabilities of the tempest. And I also wouldn't call rain out as the main thing a storm brings. A storm can bring rain or snow, but it doesn't have to. What really defines a storm and is always included is extreme wind.

And if we push aside the elemental bias you hold here that air always have to be about CC, mobility and critical damage, then we can also explain the supportive features through the lens of air magic in a very fitting way for the tempest.

The tempest is the metaphorical eye of the storm. The center of the storm which stays calm while everything around it descends into chaos. This is how I see the connection between these supportive features and air magic here.

I can see why you see water thematics represented in the spec, even if I personally think that they are the minor thing here and the wind thematic is way heavier implemented. So if you tell me that you see a water mage here, I will accept it, but then please also accept that others can see an air mage primarily here and that both interpretations are valid.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

15 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It seems we reach a point again where we just see thematics entirely different in repesentation of a spec.

Can you truly and honestly tell me that when you look at this artwork here and get asked if this is an air elementalist or a water elementalist without having prior knowledge about tempest, that you would decide to call this a water elementalist? I really can't see that.

All I see is wind and lightning. Not even a single droplet of the healing and living giving rain you mention. Sure, storms have rain and that can also explain the healing capabilities of the tempest. And I also wouldn't call rain out as the main thing a storm brings. A storm can bring rain or snow, but it doesn't have to. What really defines a storm and is always included is extreme wind.

And if we push aside the elemental bias you hold here that air always have to be about CC, mobility and critical damage, then we can also explain the supportive features through the lens of air magic in a very fitting way for the tempest.

The tempest is the metaphorical eye of the storm. The center of the storm which stays calm while everything around it descends into chaos. This is how I see the connection between these supportive features and air magic here.

I can see why you see water thematics represented in the spec, even if I personally think that they are the minor thing here and the wind thematic is way heavier implemented. So if you tell me that you see a water mage here, I will accept it, but then please also accept that others can see an air mage primarily here and that both interpretations are valid.

 

The artwork that has a massive stylised black stormcloud in the background? If I knew basically nothing about elementalist in GW2, then yeah, maybe. But I do know things. I know that elementalist never focuses entirely on a single element, and that tempest is primarily oriented towards traits that primarily interact with a support-oriented build, including traits that either create water effects or trigger off water attunement. Knowing this, I can put the image in context, see the entire picture, and realise that the stylised stormcloud behind her is just as important to the theme as the lightning, if not more so when you consider that said stylised stormcloud is the source of the storm cloud.

Heck, if I had no context whatsoever and didn't know that the Guild Wars magic system used the four elements, I'd probably say "weather mage" or "storm mage". Which does involve what classifies as air magic in Guild Wars, but you know what weather and storm magic also often involves? Rain, snow, hail, blizzards... stuff that in Guild Wars is normally associated with water.

You can dig in and insist on an interpretation based on just one image, but if you rely on that one image with no context whatsoever, it's likely to wind up as both air and water. If you take the full context, it becomes mostly water due to how many water themes are baked into the traits, but with a bit of other elements because elementalist always uses all four in GW2. To conclude that it has to be air based on the image you have to basically cherrypick how much context you have - knowing that GW2 uses a four-element system, and knowing that lightning is associated with air in that system (it isn't always - some four-element systems associate lightning with fire or even water. Because, you know, thunderstorms). Heck, the Eastern-style five-element system doesn't even have air, so in that context that artwork would have to be associated with the element that's linked to rainstorms.

 

So I repeat my PS point:

A new engineer elite spec comes out. The artwork shows it brewing up new explosives in a chemistry lab, wearing a gas mask. Gameplay is focused around blowing things up with power damage, and at least one trait in each column is related to explosions in some way. Is this an alchemy+ specialisation just because of one artwork? Or is it explosives+?

A handful of artwork pieces, especially ones that can be interpreted in multiple ways, do not override the underlying design.

[Kodama.6453]

14 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The artwork that has a massive stylised black stormcloud in the background? If I knew basically nothing about elementalist in GW2, then yeah, maybe. But I do know things. I know that elementalist never focuses entirely on a single element, and that tempest is primarily oriented towards traits that primarily interact with a support-oriented build, including traits that either create water effects or trigger off water attunement. Knowing this, I can put the image in context, see the entire picture, and realise that the stylised stormcloud behind her is just as important to the theme as the lightning, if not more so when you consider that said stylised stormcloud is the source of the storm cloud.

Heck, if I had no context whatsoever and didn't know that the Guild Wars magic system used the four elements, I'd probably say "weather mage" or "storm mage". Which does involve what classifies as air magic in Guild Wars, but you know what weather and storm magic also often involves? Rain, snow, hail, blizzards... stuff that in Guild Wars is normally associated with water.

You can dig in and insist on an interpretation based on just one image, but if you rely on that one image with no context whatsoever, it's likely to wind up as both air and water. If you take the full context, it becomes mostly water due to how many water themes are baked into the traits, but with a bit of other elements because elementalist always uses all four in GW2. To conclude that it has to be air based on the image you have to basically cherrypick how much context you have - knowing that GW2 uses a four-element system, and knowing that lightning is associated with air in that system (it isn't always - some four-element systems associate lightning with fire or even water. Because, you know, thunderstorms). Heck, the Eastern-style five-element system doesn't even have air, so in that context that artwork would have to be associated with the element that's linked to rainstorms.

 

So I repeat my PS point:

A new engineer elite spec comes out. The artwork shows it brewing up new explosives in a chemistry lab, wearing a gas mask. Gameplay is focused around blowing things up with power damage, and at least one trait in each column is related to explosions in some way. Is this an alchemy+ specialisation just because of one artwork? Or is it explosives+?

A handful of artwork pieces, especially ones that can be interpreted in multiple ways, do not override the underlying design.

Guess that is a no to my proposal to accept both interpretations as valid, then.

I just picked the concept art to confirm that we really see such different things here. It's hard for me to understand why you could this possibly see as a water magic spec, considering that it just.... smacks me in the face with the air thematic. As said, lightning and clouds everywhere in the visual design, shouts being more associated with wind as is the warhorn, etc.

On the question if I would see this elite spec for the engineer as alchemy+ or explosives+, that depends how exactly it plays out. Explosives are thematically inherently chemical, so it really can go both ways.

But I can't agree with hard marrying thematics and gameplay. According to the arguments you presented here (and correct me if you see that differently than how I understood it), then an alchemy+ spec for the engineer always has to work with boons and/or condi cleanse as the primary focus.

Your argument is that tempest is using gameplay mechanics (such as specific boons and so on) which are associated with water magic. My point is that these supportive feature, which are usually in water magic, can also get explored through another elemental lens.

Alchemy from engineer is even a great example that thematically, these concepts are not as hard connected with each other. Because alchemy used to have damage increasing traits in the past. Or even boon ripping traits (contrary to the boon giving concept it is now). They reworked it into a purely supportive trait line with just cleanses and boon support, but I think a future alchemy+ spec can bring back this other side of the alchemy which got removed.

I personally see tempest as such a case here.... exploring air magic in a none-traditional way (so not associating it hard with the thematics already used in the air magic trait line). Exploring these in different directions seems more interesting for me.

If we apply this logic that the gameplay pattern needs to be identic, then this limits design space.

I would also enjoy seeing a nature magic+ spec for ranger in the future, which uses plant magic and other nature magic associated things to attack enemies with AoE damage and hard CC. Nope, can't have that, nature magic needs to be about boons and defense.

When I talk about "core specialization+" elite specs, what I imagine is an elite spec which enhances the thematic on a core spec without having to copy the gameplay effects and mechanics of it.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Guess that is a no to my proposal to accept both interpretations as valid, then.

I guess so? I can see where you're coming from, but I think just looking at one image is a surface-level analysis that falls apart when you dig deeper below the surface.

To express this... look closely at the graphics and listen to the sound effects around Jormag in Dragonstorm sometime. There's a lot of what certainly looks a lot like blue-white lightning, and if you listen closely, there's even sounds similar to thunder and the close-range crackle of electricity - something you can also see with the orbs that grant the Storm Ice buff, and with Jormag legendary weapon skins. Does this make Jormag the air dragon? No. Jormag is the ice dragon. Does this mean that the lightning effects are misplaced? Also no. As the dragon associated with cold, Jormag is also the dragon associated with wintery storms, and while winter storms generally aren't as lightning-y as, say, a spring monsoon, they still have some. Kralkatorrik doesn't have a monopoly on lightning.

Just because there's a bit of lightning in a graphic does not mean it's the primary theme.

 

6 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I just picked the concept art to confirm that we really see such different things here. It's hard for me to understand why you could this possibly see as a water magic spec, considering that it just.... smacks me in the face with the air thematic. As said, lightning and clouds everywhere in the visual design, shouts being more associated with wind as is the warhorn, etc.

 

The artwork you link has a single, forked, lightning bolt coming down from an ominous stormcloud. That's a pretty clear indication of 'storm' - which fits the name of 'tempest'. But for most storms, the primary feature of the storm is precipitation - whether rain, hail, or snow, that's the main feature, and that means water. Clouds are also water. The lightning that is generated in the clouds is generated through charge separation created through movements of water or ice particles, either within the cloud or falling from the cloud.

When it comes to shouts and warhorn... are they really so linked to wind? There's one shout per element, two for water (fairly common for elementalist skill groups, with the healing skill being water-oriented and an ice-associated utility, and an elite that depends on which attunement you're in when you use it. The air-associated shout is one of two without an aura, and probably the least impressive of all of them. But all of the shouts except Eye of the Storm and Wash the Pain Away generate auras for your group... and that's a feature that's otherwise normally associated with water. The elite is also, at least potentially, a group healing effect (although, to be fair, it was originally a different effect).

When it comes to warhorn... it has a general theme of 'something coming out of the horn', but it doesn't really have substantially more wind effects than focus (Swirling Winds, Gale, Freezing Gust).

6 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

On the question if I would see this elite spec for the engineer as alchemy+ or explosives+, that depends how exactly it plays out. Explosives are thematically inherently chemical, so it really can go both ways.

But I can't agree with hard marrying thematics and gameplay. According to the arguments you presented here (and correct me if you see that differently than how I understood it), then an alchemy+ spec for the engineer always has to work with boons and/or condi cleanse as the primary focus.

Your argument is that tempest is using gameplay mechanics (such as specific boons and so on) which are associated with water magic. My point is that these supportive feature, which are usually in water magic, can also get explored through another elemental lens.

I didn't pick explosives at random, you know. I chose it especially because there is that link between explosives and chemistry, since both manufacturing and detonating explosives generally involve chemical reactions. It expresses the point that, just like a stormy water+ theme can have a bit of lightning in it because lightning is often associated with storms, a boomy explosives+ theme could have some chemical themes in there without being the alchemy+ theme.

Now, I'm not saying that a theme in the core traits can't be expanded into concepts that it doesn't already have, but if an elite specialisation is leaning heavily into mechanics and capabilities of a different core trait, and there are at least as many visuals coming from the theme of that second core trait, I think it's reasonable to say that if you're going to associate the elite specialisation with a core theme, it'd be the one that it actually has a lot in common with mechanically. You're trying to brush off the water link by just referring to it as 'specific boons and so on', but it goes deeper than that: Tempest has a trait that triggers when you go into water attunement. If Tempest is air+, why doesn't it have a trait that triggers when going into air attunement? Traitlines associated with an element don't have traits that trigger when going into a different element. To put this in engineer terms, this would be like a supposedly alchemy+ elite specialisation that has a trait that makes grenades better, but nothing that makes elixir guns better. Except that analogy would still be less incongruous than what you're suggesting, since engineer stuff is generally fairly interwoven with each other (the gas grenade fits the alchemy theme, for instance), while elementalist explicitly sorts nearly everything into four distinct elements.

6 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Alchemy from engineer is even a great example that thematically, these concepts are not as hard connected with each other. Because alchemy used to have damage increasing traits in the past. Or even boon ripping traits (contrary to the boon giving concept it is now). They reworked it into a purely supportive trait line with just cleanses and boon support, but I think a future alchemy+ spec can bring back this other side of the alchemy which got removed.

  But there are clear ideas of where alchemy can go there. Boon ripping, probably a bit of poison, and so on. Now, chemistry is a broad topic so there's a lot that can go into it, but if an elite specialisation came out where most of the utility skills were about different ways to blow something up, while the traits were oriented around power damage, bleeding, vulnerability, and explosions and none of the elements that used to be in alchemy, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't consider it alchemy+.

 

6 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I personally see tempest as such a case here.... exploring air magic in a none-traditional way (so not associating it hard with the thematics already used in the air magic trait line). Exploring these in different directions seems more interesting for me.

If we apply this logic that the gameplay pattern needs to be identic, then this limits design space.

I would also enjoy seeing a nature magic+ spec for ranger in the future, which uses plant magic and other nature magic associated things to attack enemies with AoE damage and hard CC. Nope, can't have that, nature magic needs to be about boons and defense.

When I talk about "core specialization+" elite specs, what I imagine is an elite spec which enhances the thematic on a core spec without having to copy the gameplay effects and mechanics of it.

 

I'm fine with associating existing themes with new purpose, but claiming that this is what's going on with Tempest is begging the question in the formal sense - it only applies if you're already assuming that tempest is Air+. Without that assumption, there's nothing in Tempest that is actually using air for anything new. Air overload is power damage. The warhorn air skills are power damage and CC. Eye of the Storm is basically a souped-up Windborne Speed in utility form. 

Instead, what you see is Tempest broadly using water's tools to achieve the purposes that water achieves (and the odd earth thing in the form of protection and stability). The healing skill is Wash The Pain Away, not Blow The Pain Away. Vigor and regeneration are both associated with water (see Catalyst for vigor). Grant healing through granting auras to allies, when granting auras to allies is traditionally a water thing, and one of those traits happens to generate frost aura. And you've got a few options that suit a power build... but you'll find such traits in water as well. There's nothing in there that is using air for anything that it wasn't already doing, instead it's really just a second water traitline in how it's set up, which is why tempests make such good heal supports. About the only way you could say it does anything different with air without assuming the conclusion is that if you run dagger, and you have the water trait Powerful Auras, you can convert Shocking Aura into healing, and that's really just an aura interaction than a specifically air-oriented interaction.

Edited December 7, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[VocalThought.9835]

On 12/5/2022 at 1:25 AM, Asum.4960 said:

I don't think it's so much what GW2 is missing, but how it's executing what it has. 

As seen in this thread, there is almost always something "kind of like x" in the game - just not implemented in a satisfactory way, or with too limited appeal. 

Anet tries to be too special and different in that regard for their own good. 

These more generic, broadly recognizable and appealing archetypes/themes are so for a reason. 

 

Sure, something like Renegade vaguely represents some Ritualist influences, but summoning some Charr's of the Razor Warband doesn't and never will have the same broad appeal of summoning Spirits of Agony, Destruction, Anguish, Pain, Life, etc. It doesn't fulfil the Ritualist fantasy. 

This pretty much goes for most things that are "we kind of have x". They are too subverted and trying to be too special, rather than broadly appealing and satisfying a general theme.

 

Then there are things that people enjoy thematically that are pretty much in the game, like Minion Mancer, which in turn just aren't there mechanically. 

 

Lastly, ironically in large part to the specialisation system, there is a severe lack of specialisation. Sure, things like Blood/Death/Curse Magic and Fire/Water/Air/Earth Magic for example exist ofc - but you can't ever be a "Blood Mage" or an "Ice Mage" and so on in GW2. You can't specialize.

 

 

I think Anet really missed the boat with Elite Specialisations in those regards, at least in many cases.

I think many players share my feelings about the idea of "Elite Core lines" - Elite Specialisations as a vehicle for players to properly specialise into/double down on what they like mechanically and or thematically about the Professions they already enjoy.

Which imo would also have been vastly easier to make than the trying too hard to be special thing. 

A few theme examples of this are Daredevil being Acrobatics+, Reaper being Soul Reaping+, Mechanist being Inventions+, Druid being Nature Magic+, Mirage being Illusions+, Tempest being Air+.

Of course design limitations like Ele, at least so far, always having to feature all Elements equally, doesn't allow even these to be translated mechanically to their full potential in most cases - but generally people view these specs fairly favourably when it comes to their theme, the concept, the fantasy they are trying to sell. 

 

Meanwhile when people first hear or see "Dragonhunter", "Catalyst", "Willbender", "Harbinger", "Virtuoso", "Renegade", "Vindicator" and co., there isn't really anything that pops into mind. There is no broadly appealing theme or fantasy they are selling. They aren't inspiring.

While they are not without redeeming thematic qualities ofc (and putting a transformative spin on an existing class can sometimes work really well too, if the concept, theme and mechanics are exceptionally strong), I'm pretty sure most people would have much rather had a Zeal+ Zealot, specializing further into Symbol and Spiritual Weapon gameplay and themes, rather than some "Willbender" with "Flames", a squishy but sustainy Blood Magic+ Gun/Crossbow slinging Warlock with Blood Sacrifices over a Blighted Harbinger of.. what exactly? (or Blood Mage/Knight, Wraith, etc:), a proper Ritualist for Renegade, or have the Fire/Ice/Earth etc. Mage fantasy fulfilled, and so on. 

 

It's a bit strange (and in some ways frustrating) that we largely got what feels a bit like the "we are kind of running out of ideas here, Specialisations", before the Elite versions of what's already there and liked by people, to actually specialise into. 

Many players are clamouring for many of these classic themes and fantasies that a lot of the core professions represent, but often can't sufficiently or at all execute or specialize into, to explore for a decade now. One would think it wise to cover those predominantly, before transitioning into exploring niche concepts or the subversion of those cores.

 

TL;DR:

If you want to know what's missing in GW2, you largely need look no further than the core lines. They were picked as strong thematic pillars for the professions for a reason. Actually allow us to specialize into those.

I do believe that each elite spec reinforces a core trait line, in some cases more core traits than one. You can usually tell from the elite's minor traits which core trait it supports.  Like Bladesworn reinforces Discipline and Specter reinforces Shadow Arts. I'm sure if you take the time,  you can find the connections for each profession.