Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Missing professions and class themes.


VocalThought.9835

Recommended Posts

On 12/5/2022 at 1:25 AM, Asum.4960 said:

I don't think it's so much what GW2 is missing, but how it's executing what it has. 

As seen in this thread, there is almost always something "kind of like x" in the game - just not implemented in a satisfactory way, or with too limited appeal. 

Anet tries to be too special and different in that regard for their own good. 

These more generic, broadly recognizable and appealing archetypes/themes are so for a reason. 

 

Sure, something like Renegade vaguely represents some Ritualist influences, but summoning some Charr's of the Razor Warband doesn't and never will have the same broad appeal of summoning Spirits of Agony, Destruction, Anguish, Pain, Life, etc. It doesn't fulfil the Ritualist fantasy. 

This pretty much goes for most things that are "we kind of have x". They are too subverted and trying to be too special, rather than broadly appealing and satisfying a general theme.

 

Then there are things that people enjoy thematically that are pretty much in the game, like Minion Mancer, which in turn just aren't there mechanically. 

 

Lastly, ironically in large part to the specialisation system, there is a severe lack of specialisation. Sure, things like Blood/Death/Curse Magic and Fire/Water/Air/Earth Magic for example exist ofc - but you can't ever be a "Blood Mage" or an "Ice Mage" and so on in GW2. You can't specialize.

 

 

I think Anet really missed the boat with Elite Specialisations in those regards, at least in many cases.

I think many players share my feelings about the idea of "Elite Core lines" - Elite Specialisations as a vehicle for players to properly specialise into/double down on what they like mechanically and or thematically about the Professions they already enjoy.

Which imo would also have been vastly easier to make than the trying too hard to be special thing. 

A few theme examples of this are Daredevil being Acrobatics+, Reaper being Soul Reaping+, Mechanist being Inventions+, Druid being Nature Magic+, Mirage being Illusions+, Tempest being Air+.

Of course design limitations like Ele, at least so far, always having to feature all Elements equally, doesn't allow even these to be translated mechanically to their full potential in most cases - but generally people view these specs fairly favourably when it comes to their theme, the concept, the fantasy they are trying to sell. 

 

Meanwhile when people first hear or see "Dragonhunter", "Catalyst", "Willbender", "Harbinger", "Virtuoso", "Renegade", "Vindicator" and co., there isn't really anything that pops into mind. There is no broadly appealing theme or fantasy they are selling. They aren't inspiring.

While they are not without redeeming thematic qualities ofc (and putting a transformative spin on an existing class can sometimes work really well too, if the concept, theme and mechanics are exceptionally strong), I'm pretty sure most people would have much rather had a Zeal+ Zealot, specializing further into Symbol and Spiritual Weapon gameplay and themes, rather than some "Willbender" with "Flames", a squishy but sustainy Blood Magic+ Gun/Crossbow slinging Warlock with Blood Sacrifices over a Blighted Harbinger of.. what exactly? (or Blood Mage/Knight, Wraith, etc:), a proper Ritualist for Renegade, or have the Fire/Ice/Earth etc. Mage fantasy fulfilled, and so on. 

 

It's a bit strange (and in some ways frustrating) that we largely got what feels a bit like the "we are kind of running out of ideas here, Specialisations", before the Elite versions of what's already there and liked by people, to actually specialise into. 

Many players are clamouring for many of these classic themes and fantasies that a lot of the core professions represent, but often can't sufficiently or at all execute or specialize into, to explore for a decade now. One would think it wise to cover those predominantly, before transitioning into exploring niche concepts or the subversion of those cores.

 

TL;DR:

If you want to know what's missing in GW2, you largely need look no further than the core lines. They were picked as strong thematic pillars for the professions for a reason. Actually allow us to specialize into those.

I do believe that each elite spec reinforces a core trait line, in some cases more core traits than one. You can usually tell from the elite's minor traits which core trait it supports.  Like Bladesworn reinforces Discipline and Specter reinforces Shadow Arts. I'm sure if you take the time,  you can find the connections for each profession. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
On 12/8/2022 at 6:12 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I feel personally attacked.

 

We're missing Monk and Cavalier though.

I see the Monk in Revenant and in Guardian... I'm curious to how you see monks being done differently in this game? I don't even know what a cavalier would look like in this game. Please explain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One archetype I am personally missing is the "poison gas trapper". For references on what I mean, look up Viper from the game Valorant or Caustic from Apex Legends.

Someone who is hiding in poison gas clouds to ambush enemies. I envision this as an elite spec for the engineer which represents the engineer/thief dual class concept. Emphasis of this elite spec would be condition damage, boon removal and stealth. I am currently working on an elite spec concept for this very idea.

  • Confused 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A cavalier could work - only if said mount is as responsive as the player is with movement.

Perhaps a spirit or machine instead of the slightly slide-y and weighty steps of our mounts we use for transport.

Guardians or revenants could get a warclaw as an e-spec mount/legend.

Rangers could make it work with F5 to mount.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, VocalThought.9835 said:

I see the Monk in Revenant and in Guardian... I'm curious to how you see monks being done differently in this game? I don't even know what a cavalier would look like in this game. Please explain.

Guardian is monk and paragon merged together, but the monk I was referencing was the DnD/Pathfinder specialist in unarmed strikes. An unarmed strike specialist could be brought in via warrior, just give it 'forms' to enter as utility skills/profession mechanic. It would basically function as weapon kits, just changing the martial arts form.

Cavalier would be a mounted combatant. Meaning it stays mounted while attacking. That could become a ranger spec though. Mount your pet, can new skills, increased run speed while mounted, and some damage reduction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would very much like to see a ranger get Verdant Lord type of spec.
No pets, but instead a set of sentient plants you can ...plant...yyy I mean summon as your profession mechanic.

This would defenitely be a good bunker/zone control e-spec. The longer you stay in one place, the more plants you can grow and they get stronger.
Conversly if you run around a lot you will be at your weakest as you want to have time to "take over" a zone with your personal "forest".

Mechanically we'd be looking at something between a minion necro and mechanist. Your traits would be purely focused on the plants and various effects they bring (along with them affecting one another). That's the part similar to mechanist.
The plants would be summoned with your F1-F5 buttons with flip over skills to command them to perform their special action when already summoned (that's the necro part of things).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/24/2023 at 5:40 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Guardian is monk and paragon merged together, but the monk I was referencing was the DnD/Pathfinder specialist in unarmed strikes. An unarmed strike specialist could be brought in via warrior, just give it 'forms' to enter as utility skills/profession mechanic. It would basically function as weapon kits, just changing the martial arts form.

Cavalier would be a mounted combatant. Meaning it stays mounted while attacking. That could become a ranger spec though. Mount your pet, can new skills, increased run speed while mounted, and some damage reduction.

Willbender and daredevil do use a fair amount of unarmed martial combat moves but personally I'd see that as out if place on warrior if you're going for classic DnD monk since they can't wear armor. I sorta see daredevil as close as we're likely to get since DnD monks do use quarterstaves too. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Willbender and daredevil do use a fair amount of unarmed martial combat moves but personally I'd see that as out if place on warrior if you're going for classic DnD monk since they can't wear armor. I sorta see daredevil as close as we're likely to get since DnD monks do use quarterstaves too. 

And there is the Brawler archetype from Pathfinder that is a Fighter/Monk hybrid class. Warrior, the master or weaponry, should also be skilled in unarmed combat. You see this with their Physical skills, but in a more brutish form. Warrior can very well specialize as an espec into unarmed combat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/27/2023 at 11:51 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

And there is the Brawler archetype from Pathfinder that is a Fighter/Monk hybrid class. Warrior, the master or weaponry, should also be skilled in unarmed combat. You see this with their Physical skills, but in a more brutish form. Warrior can very well specialize as an espec into unarmed combat.

If you're not specifically looking for a D&D/Pathfinder monk, too, there's also the aspect that historically grappling techniques often become more important in armoured combat, since armour lets you get in close without being stabbed, and your enemy's armour doesn't help as much if your strategy is to wrestle your enemy to the ground and bang their helmet against a rock until they're too concussed to fight back.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
On 1/24/2023 at 5:27 AM, Kodama.6453 said:

One archetype I am personally missing is the "poison gas trapper". For references on what I mean, look up Viper from the game Valorant or Caustic from Apex Legends.

Someone who is hiding in poison gas clouds to ambush enemies. I envision this as an elite spec for the engineer which represents the engineer/thief dual class concept. Emphasis of this elite spec would be condition damage, boon removal and stealth. I am currently working on an elite spec concept for this very idea.

 

Sounds like Untamed to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

 

Sounds like Untamed to me.

Erm, whut?

Untamed adds basically no condition damage to the ranger kit. Untamed doesn't add any stealth at all. Basically the only similarity these would have is that they can remove boons, have ambushes (do you also say untamed was just mirage, because mirage got ambushes as well?) and play with traps (if an Untamed choses to use traps for whatever reason.... which no meta build for that spec currently does).

I envision the playstyle to be majorly different as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the logic is that the skills that pets get while unleashed do have a fairly strong 'poison gas cloud' theme, but that's really not much more than what necromancer can do with Corrosive Poison Cloud. There's not really anything that really embraces the theme of toxic or corrosive gases, just a number that have a couple of skills in that area.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/9/2022 at 6:56 PM, Warscythes.9307 said:

 

I would say more guardian to be honest. One issue with the theme of the class from GW1 is that they are human centric. Dervish specifically has a lot of ties to the human god. They are basically holy warrior priests. With GW2's multiple races I don't see it ever be a thing, can you imagine a Charr worship the human gods for power? It would have to be retuned to something like, for example like the guardian. So instead of humans god, they worship 5 ideals of sort. Honestly guardian or rev fits pretty well in the end.

I see Dervish represented in Revenants Mallyx. So you're not actually worshiping a human god, but a demon. Of course Shiro represents the Assassin, Jalis is a Paragon, buffing and supporting allies. And Ventari is a representative of a Monk. Ritualist is represented in Kalla. 

 

Am I the only one that noticed the representation? I know it's not exact, but it's kinda in your face. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Between core and 27 elites, I think most game play archetypes are covered. In terms of theme, there are a few missing. Mage, Monk, Occultist and Paladin.
 

Guardian does fit paladin or monk to me. More of melee magic caster with physical weapons. Necro does have some occultist vibes. Definitely in terms of game play. however, I think there is room for full occultist. For me ele never fits the mage archetype. It is close, but ele feels more like a melee brawler, with the exception of staff.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, VocalThought.9835 said:

I see Dervish represented in Revenants Mallyx. So you're not actually worshiping a human god, but a demon. Of course Shiro represents the Assassin, Jalis is a Paragon, buffing and supporting allies. And Ventari is a representative of a Monk. Ritualist is represented in Kalla. 

 

Am I the only one that noticed the representation? I know it's not exact, but it's kinda in your face. 

I don't think it's actually that simple. Mallyx being Dervish-like, I could see. So is Glint. I'd even say Jalis is much more dervish-like than paragon-like. Ventari doesn't really have anything in common with monk apart from being a healer, it's really probably closer to a ritualist, but mostly its own thing. Kalla being the spirit spam ritualist is fairly obvious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Missing themes I can think of off the top of my head that could be fulfilled by especs:

Warrior: Spellblade, rune knight, battlemaster, warlord

Guardian: Exorcist, inquisitor, oathbreaker, priest/monk

Thief: Trickster magician, soulknife, swashbuckler (maybe daredevil covers this last one)

Engineer: Alchemist, power armor, artillery

Ranger: proper shapeshifter, monster hunter/slayer/trapper

Necromancer: witch doctor, pact warlock, proper minion master

Mesmer: proper summoner, mind mage, item enchanter, illusionary monsters/horrors 

And I'll say it again, a proper spearman, lancer, polearm master, etc.

Edited by Gaiawolf.8261
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Makuragee.3058 said:

Theirs no titan/gundam/mech. At least not directly in the class and espec. My poor engi just want to pilot a golem

Tutorial on how to give up on this idea:

- Step 1 make a PvE asura.

- Step 2 use skill Sumon Power Suit

- Step 3 Have a good taste on how horrible it is no matter which race you use it with.

Alternative:

- Step 1 Go into the early asuran maps

- Step 2 Find the heart/event that allow you to use an asuran Power Suit.

- Step 3 Have a good taste on how horrible it is no matter which race you use it with.

Bis:

- Step 1 go into PvE or WvW.

- Step 2 ask an asura friend to Sumon a Power Suit.

- Step 3 Have a good taste on how horrible it is no matter which race you use it with.

 

NB.: Nobody should expect that it would be any less cluncky than this abomination of an asuran racial elite skill.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Tutorial on how to give up on this idea:

- Step 1 make a PvE asura.

- Step 2 use skill Sumon Power Suit

- Step 3 Have a good taste on how horrible it is no matter which race you use it with.

Alternative:

- Step 1 Go into the early asuran maps

- Step 2 Find the heart/event that allow you to use an asuran Power Suit.

- Step 3 Have a good taste on how horrible it is no matter which race you use it with.

Bis:

- Step 1 go into PvE or WvW.

- Step 2 ask an asura friend to Sumon a Power Suit.

- Step 3 Have a good taste on how horrible it is no matter which race you use it with.

 

NB.: Nobody should expect that it would be any less cluncky than this abomination of an asuran racial elite skill.

Its not clunky, its just balance to be bad. I want a well balance class mechanic. I would not ask for it, if the asura racial skill was actually usable. And in wvw I use siege golem all the time!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Makuragee.3058 said:

Its not clunky, its just balance to be bad. I want a well balance class mechanic. I would not ask for it, if the asura racial skill was actually usable. And in wvw I use siege golem all the time!

Can you jump in a golem? Can you dodge in a golem? Do you have access to your utility skills with the much needed access to stunbreak and stability in a golem? It's not balanced to be bad, it's just bad to the point they don't need to balance it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Can you jump in a golem? Can you dodge in a golem? Do you have access to your utility skills with the much needed access to stunbreak and stability in a golem? It's not balanced to be bad, it's just bad to the point they don't need to balance it.

It is that way because it is balanced to be bad because it is a racial skill and they are supposed to be worse than profession skills.
If they made it into an elite, they absolutely can lift those restrictions.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...