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Change Request: Vigorous Shouts


Lan Deathrider.5910

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Alright CMC, I have a new one for you. When TR got nerfed, and rightfully so, it squashed a new playstyle that some PvE BSW enjoyers were... enjoying: Shout Heal Warrior. I have a proposal for you, that would bring that back in PvE, and in a limited fashion in WvW and PvP, but not gated by BSW.

Change Vigorous Shouts to include a rider that all shouts with ammo gain one more ammo.

Naturally, any shout that does not have ammo would not gain ammo, so no ammo on Fear Me, and no ammo on Shake it Off in competitive play. 

 

What this does is open up a SIO, FGJ, OMM generic warrior heal build in PvE. Shoutbreaker in PvP gets a small bump. In WvW Spellbreaker as a support may become more of a thing, but Warrior in general could do it.

It seems a little ham-fisted, I'll admit, but that is more due to warrior, along with all it's especs, lacking a MH support weapon.

Thoughts from the rest of the warrior fam?

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I enjoy shout healing on warrior, however I have to hard disagree with this idea. Adding more ammo to our shout skills is a terrible idea, and will only exagerrate the issues that shout healing causes in other game modes. What we need is shouts to have good support utility to them, because as they are, they're just healing for the sake of healing other than for great justice. We lack the boons of a proper support, and just giving us extra uses of the shouts isn't going to help, cuz all you're going to end up doing is spamming the shouts even more than you do now.

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18 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

For PvE though? 

Its just going to bring us right back around to what they just nerfed by adding back more ammo to Shouts for Shoutsworn in competitive modes because they are still using Tactics. There is a Defense variation, but Tactics is still a good choice for them because of the Might gen.

Don't buy into the weird Healsworn build that people ran because one streamer ran it, was generally not all that helpful to their group, but people saw it and thought "Oh, streamer did it. Guess its good."

There are plenty of other things they can do to augment healing in Tactics to make a functional Healing build for Warriors, but tossing more ammo into Shouts is just going to bloat Shoutsworn's healing again because it will just directly be doing what TR indirectly did; give shouts 3 ammo instead of 2.

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2 hours ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 well maybe, however just boon uptime/stacks increase would be enough imo.

Maybe. It does need more boons. But that still doesn't fix the fact that all the support is on the utility bar and warhorn, so any healing is coming from the shouts, and there is not enough there for it to function well in that roll. BSW was able to just barely function in that roll because of TR.

Having VS give 1 more ammo to the ammo shouts is another packet of healing every 4s. The fact that SiO is no longer an ammo skill would keep things like Shoutbreaker and Shoutsworn from over sustaining in PvP/WvW.

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2 hours ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

Its just going to bring us right back around to what they just nerfed by adding back more ammo to Shouts for Shoutsworn in competitive modes because they are still using Tactics. There is a Defense variation, but Tactics is still a good choice for them because of the Might gen.

Don't buy into the weird Healsworn build that people ran because one streamer ran it, was generally not all that helpful to their group, but people saw it and thought "Oh, streamer did it. Guess its good."

I agree, healsworn wasn't going to become a true thing, but it was close enough that people began to seriously use it. And they were liking it. It kind of showed that for PvE at least if only there were one more use on each of the shouts, or the equivalent amount of healing, that heal warrior could actually become a thing.

2 hours ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

There are plenty of other things they can do to augment healing in Tactics to make a functional Healing build for Warriors, but tossing more ammo into Shouts is just going to bloat Shoutsworn's healing again because it will just directly be doing what TR indirectly did; give shouts 3 ammo instead of 2.

Since SiO is not longer an ammo skill there is less room for abuse in competitive. That and you can't quick charge them all and would have more of a CD to deal with.

More healing in Tactics can and should also come from changing MM to heal when you apply might to someone, and lowering the CD on Soldier's Comfort. I'd take those in exchange of this request.

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12 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I agree, healsworn wasn't going to become a true thing, but it was close enough that people began to seriously use it. And they were liking it. It kind of showed that for PvE at least if only there were one more use on each of the shouts, or the equivalent amount of healing, that heal warrior could actually become a thing.

Since SiO is not longer an ammo skill there is less room for abuse in competitive. That and you can't quick charge them all and would have more of a CD to deal with.

More healing in Tactics can and should also come from changing MM to heal when you apply might to someone, and lowering the CD on Soldier's Comfort. I'd take those in exchange of this request.

Both of those changes and extra boons on shouts would provide a good means of healing and support from warrior.

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36 minutes ago, Kalthea.4326 said:

Both of those changes and extra boons on shouts would provide a good means of healing and support from warrior.

There really isn't much that they need to do:

  • Reduce Soldier's Comfort CD
  • Mending Might changed to heal when granting someone might
  • Add extra boons to On My Mark (swiftness), To The Limit (vigor), Shake It Off (resolution)
  • Change Vigorous Shouts to either add an extra ammo to ammo shouts, or increase the healing by a proportional amount.
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@Lan Deathrider.5910

 For good PVE healer you need gradual Healing like soothing mist or virtue of resolve or really really good uptime of regeneration. Also you need burst healing and lots of boons and a way to mitigate damage for the group. 
The issue is that Warrior has Banners and Shouts but only 3 slots to work with and you will need tactics and defense to cover the good kitten boons, so you have 1 slot for shout left maybe for FGJ or Shake it off,  It does have on of the better Reses in the game with banner but that cuts in the elite slots options and then you have the issues that Warrior does not have a single support healing skill.
To The Limit might work if it did some healing to people around you or defense banner migrated to the heal slot both with some Support function tweaks.
The big issue here is that non of the weapon side helps the support warrior since all are offensive and non except Warhorn do support stuff so the main Mechanic of Warrior bursts does not help support warrior in any way. This could potentially be circumvented with access to water field and certain Blasty Weapon but Anet kind of moved away from blast finishers long ago, the old double combo finisher trait would have worked nicely here or maybe a new one where you proc a heal when you use blast, whirl or leap finisher.
For mitigation warrior doesn't have much to work with here WoJ, Warhorn and defense banner and maybe Electric fence(good luck that going in a build somewhere).
So for Warrior to have a heal support it needs a new Elite spec with support weapon or maybe one of the more boring specs like SpB some traits and skills rework with group support in mind, there is plenty of space of dud traits and skills on it and maybe full counter could get useful as group mitigation from traits . I'm suggestion SpB since it kinda is almost there for PVP and WvW.
As for now even if the shouts have more charges it wont help much since it will still be half build only. 

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Just skip the support/heal memes at this point and wait for a support elite spec like vancho said. It has no real foundation and if you powercreep core traits and utilities, you might end up with a bad elite spec because core already has too much.

Shout heal is uninteractive and there is no "feeling" in pressing them. I mean its great that some people like it but saying that this is fun is like saying that pmech requires execution. 

Also 3 utility slots for banners and shouts... and you need all of them at the same time. Also no prot or resolution... Aegis and stability being tied to spamming banners OCD.

At this point chrono has better chances to be a good healer instead of warrior.

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I'd be concerned that the proposal might supercharge things like healbreaker a bit too much if introduced into sPvP. Shoutsworn meant making a few sacrifices to get those extra shouts - healbreaker with an extra charge per shout would likely have most of the strengths shoutsworn had, with proper burst skills, Full Counter, a more reliable heal slot skill, and the elite banner. 

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I think some of you are glossing over that SiO wouldn't get an extra ammo in PvP/WvW as it has no ammo anymore, which would keep such a thing from becoming overbearing like Shoutsworn was.

Regardless, playing this past weekend with PS and Mending Might really has me convinced that they need to change MM to heal allies when applying might to them.

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7 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I think some of you are glossing over that SiO wouldn't get an extra ammo in PvP/WvW as it has no ammo anymore, which would keep such a thing from becoming overbearing like Shoutsworn was.

Regardless, playing this past weekend with PS and Mending Might really has me convinced that they need to change MM to heal allies when applying might to them.

Shake It Off wasn't the chief concern in regard to its healing; sure it would still be slightly less but Shoutsworn in competitive modes already ran 3 shouts anyway. It isn't glossing over it, its just that Shake It Off not getting the extra charge isn't the concern; its the everything else getting the extra charges. That would still bloat the healing right back up to where it was.

Think of it like this; Before Oct 4th Shoutsworn healing was filling a bowl until it overflowed completely, water spilling all over the place. This proposed added ammo would be filling the bowl right up to the brim, with splash over occurring before shutting the water off.

It would still be bloated, less than it was, but still bloated again and we don't want that. They need to make healthy changes, not rehash the same issues but in lesser severity than when they needed to be tuned down. That would be like giving Warrior back the old Defy Pain and Last Stand traits, but with their 90 second CDs again. Not the solution.

 

I do agree they need to push Tactics into more of the support role. Mending Might needs to heal allies because why is this not a thing already, and just so many other things need to be done to Warrior. However I think others are right in that we can't shove the healing support into current Warrior specs. Boon support like with Quickness and Might, sure yes do it, but I think we need to wait until whenever, if ever, the next expansion drops with new Elite Specs.

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28 minutes ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

Shake It Off wasn't the chief concern in regard to its healing; sure it would still be slightly less but Shoutsworn in competitive modes already ran 3 shouts anyway. It isn't glossing over it, its just that Shake It Off not getting the extra charge isn't the concern; its the everything else getting the extra charges. That would still bloat the healing right back up to where it was.

Think of it like this; Before Oct 4th Shoutsworn healing was filling a bowl until it overflowed completely, water spilling all over the place. This proposed added ammo would be filling the bowl right up to the brim, with splash over occurring before shutting the water off.

It would still be bloated, less than it was, but still bloated again and we don't want that. They need to make healthy changes, not rehash the same issues but in lesser severity than when they needed to be tuned down. That would be like giving Warrior back the old Defy Pain and Last Stand traits, but with their 90 second CDs again. Not the solution.

 

I do agree they need to push Tactics into more of the support role. Mending Might needs to heal allies because why is this not a thing already, and just so many other things need to be done to Warrior. However I think others are right in that we can't shove the healing support into current Warrior specs. Boon support like with Quickness and Might, sure yes do it, but I think we need to wait until whenever, if ever, the next expansion drops with new Elite Specs.

I think the bloat would be less, and certainly less spammy this way as opposed to what TR did, and yes I did play that build enough to state that.

A large portion of Shoutsworn's bloat came from Mending Might and Combat Stimulant, not VS's healing. Keep in mind that I am also very vocal in pushing a change to MM so that it heals allies when you grant might to them rather than healing yourself when you grant might. This change I'm proposing here would line up very well with that and help to create a proper support build.

As far as PvE support goes, with alacrity uptime you only need one banner for 100% quickness uptime at 100% BD, so this change to VS along with the changes I've been pushing for MM would add in the needed healing component to that setup.

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2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I think the bloat would be less, and certainly less spammy this way as opposed to what TR did, and yes I did play that build enough to state that.

A large portion of Shoutsworn's bloat came from Mending Might and Combat Stimulant, not VS's healing. Keep in mind that I am also very vocal in pushing a change to MM so that it heals allies when you grant might to them rather than healing yourself when you grant might. This change I'm proposing here would line up very well with that and help to create a proper support build.

As far as PvE support goes, with alacrity uptime you only need one banner for 100% quickness uptime at 100% BD, so this change to VS along with the changes I've been pushing for MM would add in the needed healing component to that setup.

I think this is where we disagree on what it means when something is "bloated", or how something is bloated. In this case healing.

On their own Combat Stimulant and Mending Might are fine, even with MMR and the Might Gen off Tactics they are fine (objectively speaking). What made it bloated was TR's ability to, in essence, add a third ammo charge to shout skills which allowed Vigorous Shouts to bloat the healing present on the Shoutsworn build and allow for FGJ to heal further due to both VS and MMR. As well as allowing them to just hit On My Mark a few extra times.

The traits that provided the extra healing (Vigorous Shouts, MMR, Mending Might) were not the cause of this because if these things were too much on their own then Warrior's healing on any spec would be significantly strong (it isn't, we all know this). TR provided the "extra" here that made it too much and they correctly tagged it with a nerf. Essentially this was the thing that made the water spill over into a puddle around the bowl, as per my analogy. Where there were 3 cups of water added to a bowl that could hold 3 cups, TR added a whole 4th cup of water.

Your suggestion would just be similarly accomplishing what TR had already been doing. The double stunbreak and large condi clear wasn't the chief issue, it was TR providing the ability to mash the shouts more often which your suggestion would also do and we'd just be rewinding the clock but triggering a different timeline with the same result.

I'm not doubting your understanding of the class or your understanding of the build, I'm just saying you may be misunderstanding what exactly the cause of the bloating of healing was with this build while trying to play devil's advocate in regards to advocating for an actual support build on Warrior. I do agree Warrior needs some playstyle variety, even if I won't personally play Support (I never do in anything), just that there are better ways to accomplish it.

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1 minute ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

I think this is where we disagree on what it means when something is "bloated", or how something is bloated. In this case healing.

On their own Combat Stimulant and Mending Might are fine, even with MMR and the Might Gen off Tactics they are fine (objectively speaking). What made it bloated was TR's ability to, in essence, add a third ammo charge to shout skills which allowed Vigorous Shouts to bloat the healing present on the Shoutsworn build and allow for FGJ to heal further due to both VS and MMR. As well as allowing them to just hit On My Mark a few extra times.

The traits that provided the extra healing (Vigorous Shouts, MMR, Mending Might) were not the cause of this because if these things were too much on their own then Warrior's healing on any spec would be significantly strong (it isn't, we all know this). TR provided the "extra" here that made it too much and they correctly tagged it with a nerf. Essentially this was the thing that made the water spill over into a puddle around the bowl, as per my analogy. Where there were 3 cups of water added to a bowl that could hold 3 cups, TR added a whole 4th cup of water.

Your suggestion would just be similarly accomplishing what TR had already been doing. The double stunbreak and large condi clear wasn't the chief issue, it was TR providing the ability to mash the shouts more often which your suggestion would also do and we'd just be rewinding the clock but triggering a different timeline with the same result.

I'm not doubting your understanding of the class or your understanding of the build, I'm just saying you may be misunderstanding what exactly the cause of the bloating of healing was with this build while trying to play devil's advocate in regards to advocating for an actual support build on Warrior. I do agree Warrior needs some playstyle variety, even if I won't personally play Support (I never do in anything), just that there are better ways to accomplish it.

As I said, keep in mind that I'm asking for this while also asking for changing MM within this thread and elsewhere. It would not be the same thing that was bloated with TR.

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4 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

As I said, keep in mind that I'm asking for this while also asking for changing MM within this thread and elsewhere. It would not be the same thing that was bloated with TR.

Yeah I know, but what I'm saying is that Mending Might wasn't anywhere near the issue that was causing the bloat. It was a factor, but not the cause. TR was the cause. Had they done anything to Mending Might instead of TR that would have been just on brand for much of their past changes to Warrior that were just "huh?" mostly because it would be hitting something outside of Bladesworn which didn't need to happen.

Triple use of For Great Justice is roughly 3,193~ healing per use with MMR, Mending Might (assuming ally nearby) and Vigorous Shouts. FGJ with no TR affecting it and no 3rd ammo charge, its only two uses. So the TR change shaved off a third of FGJ's healing on the Shoutsworn build. As well as shaving off another chunk of healing from On My Mark and a further chunk from Shake It Off no longer being an ammo skill in competitive modes. Maybe the Shake It Off change was too heavy handed, hitting our condi cleanse like that, but so far it doesn't seem so much of a death sentence as maybe it was presumed to be on paper.

I think its just wiser to push harder for a healing support build as the next Elite Spec (whenever this may be) as opposed to trying to shove a bunch of healing somewhere into current Warrior because it will likely just exacerbate problems elsewhere or create new ones. I think treading down a more boon support route, with smatterings of its current healing, is a better choice. I do think Mending Might should get an additional variable of healing allies but with a higher value than how much it heals the Warrior itself for, I also think they should ideally swap Doubled Standards and Leg Specialist so as to help Tactics becomes the Support line rather than spreading it out like it is now.

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2 hours ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

Yeah I know, but what I'm saying is that Mending Might wasn't anywhere near the issue that was causing the bloat. It was a factor, but not the cause. TR was the cause. Had they done anything to Mending Might instead of TR that would have been just on brand for much of their past changes to Warrior that were just "huh?" mostly because it would be hitting something outside of Bladesworn which didn't need to happen.

Triple use of For Great Justice is roughly 3,193~ healing per use with MMR, Mending Might (assuming ally nearby) and Vigorous Shouts. FGJ with no TR affecting it and no 3rd ammo charge, its only two uses. So the TR change shaved off a third of FGJ's healing on the Shoutsworn build. As well as shaving off another chunk of healing from On My Mark and a further chunk from Shake It Off no longer being an ammo skill in competitive modes. Maybe the Shake It Off change was too heavy handed, hitting our condi cleanse like that, but so far it doesn't seem so much of a death sentence as maybe it was presumed to be on paper.

I think its just wiser to push harder for a healing support build as the next Elite Spec (whenever this may be) as opposed to trying to shove a bunch of healing somewhere into current Warrior because it will likely just exacerbate problems elsewhere or create new ones. I think treading down a more boon support route, with smatterings of its current healing, is a better choice. I do think Mending Might should get an additional variable of healing allies but with a higher value than how much it heals the Warrior itself for, I also think they should ideally swap Doubled Standards and Leg Specialist so as to help Tactics becomes the Support line rather than spreading it out like it is now.

I'll reiterate, MM should heal allies when you give them might.

The next Espec should be a support spec, but we all know it will be a 4th elite flavor of DPS. Even if it were a support spec, it will need to lean on Tactics to do it's job, so seeking adjustments to Tactics that will cement the role well, rather than having it be half baked is worthwhile. Especially if we are stuck with yet another DPS, in what 2 more years?

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To put my comment in context:
I've been playing hammer healbreaker lately. It certainly doesn't feel broken at the moment, but it commonly gets top healer, and that includes when there's a more traditional support in the team like core guardian (yes, I checked that they had a staff), druid, and tempest. Even if it's just buffing FGJ and OMM, an extra charge for having a trait that you already want to have could well be a bit much.

MMR applying healing to allies is an interesting idea, though. Could bring Phalanx Strength into play as a competitor for Vigorous Shouts and turn might-generating weapons into de facto healing weapons, allowing for heal warriors that don't need to be loaded with shouts. 

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41 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

To put my comment in context:
I've been playing hammer healbreaker lately. It certainly doesn't feel broken at the moment, but it commonly gets top healer, and that includes when there's a more traditional support in the team like core guardian (yes, I checked that they had a staff), druid, and tempest. Even if it's just buffing FGJ and OMM, an extra charge for having a trait that you already want to have could well be a bit much.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm not convinced either way. At the very least MM should be changed to heal allies you grant might to.

41 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

MMR applying healing to allies is an interesting idea, though. Could bring Phalanx Strength into play as a competitor for Vigorous Shouts and turn might-generating weapons into de facto healing weapons, allowing for heal warriors that don't need to be loaded with shouts. 

That is something several of us have been suggesting for a few months now. One thing that warrior is missing from a true support build is a source of chip healing for the party. That and it is so odd that our group support trait line has such a selfish source of self sustain hard built into it.

GW2 was built on the foundation that every profession should be able to fill every role, which they then diverged from and are slowly moving back towards. To me what needs to change is things like the below:

Tactics:
MM changed to heal allies when granting might, at the current amounts. 
Soldier's Comfort CD reduced to 5s and decoupled from Marching Orders.
Marching Order's CD removed.

Spellbreaker:
Guard Counter grants Resolution and Protection in an area for 4s. Meditations grant these boons in an area for 2s.
Dispelling Force grants ripped boons in an area around the Spellbreaker.

You then would have a core support build centered around giving lots of might and healing with PS, with traited Banner of Tactics, FGJ, and SIO on the bar and Axe/Horn + GS as your weapon sets. Spellbreaker would bring the extra defensive boons.

That does not preclude a future support focused spec, with say F1 through F4 being PBAoE support abilities.

 

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