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Feels like the game thinks my MMR is something other than it is


Sihmm.9236

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This is a long post, because I’m the sort of person who likes to try to explain why I’m saying what I’m saying. So here’s the salient point:

I’m losing game after game after game this season and it feels like the game is selecting my team as a dramatically lower MMR to the enemy team. And I wonder if I am somehow the cause.

Some background: I began playing PvP about a year ago. Season 5, my first season, I climbed from a (deserved) Bronze to a (also deserved) Gold. Season six, seven and eight I placed Platinum. Last season I climbed to Platinum 2 for the first time. During this time I’ve earned the ‘Champion [profession]’ title on four professions and have won Platinum-level games on everything except Engineer and Revenant.

I hope this lends some moderate weight to my current confusion. (Also, during this time I’ve never posted any sort of complaint on the forums.)

My first few placement games this season I played as bunker FB, as we were usually against multiple scourge/spellbreaker teams and I felt it was the best way I could contribute. I won a couple, lost a couple. They were tough games, and even when we were winning, I simply wasn’t enjoying it too much.

So I swapped to something I’d never taken into ranked before: Fresh Air core ele. Figured I’d suck, but at least it would be fun. And I didn’t mind if I placed bronze, or silver, or gold – I figured the lower concentration games would be more fun than the slugfest of Platinum.

I think I then lost every single remaining placement match. However, the weird thing was, I didn’t feel like I was letting the team down. I wasn’t losing my matchups, or rotating badly. Instead, I was staying alive, getting kills, contesting enemy caps and defending friendly caps.

The thing is, everywhere on the map that I wasn’t, my team was losing. If I won a 1v1, I’d face a 2 or 3v1 next as enemies streamed in from where my team had all just died. If I managed to sustain a 1v2, it’d snowball into a 3 or 4v1 as my team died. If I stayed with my team, we’d win the fight where I was but lose the rest of the map.

Now, I'm not suggesting I'm amazing at PvP and should be winning everything and carrying, it just feels like even in my inexperience with a new build I'm just at such a huge disadvantage with my team selection that I have to play to a ridiculous level to stand any chance of the team being competitive.

This pattern has more or less continued throughout my season so far. I’ve dabbled in Fresh Air, Sage’s Sword and Freshweaver, all the while figuring it’s just my inexperience with those build’s that’s holding me and my team back. However, every so often I get a team that doesn’t just all die while outnumbering mid, and then we win.

OK, so, I figured I’d swap back to bunker FB for a few games just there. Outcome? Doesn’t matter how much I keep my teammates alive or refuse to cede a point. Doesn’t matter if I’m fighting 3v1 and my team is outnumbering the rest of the map. The majority of games, my team will die if I’m not present, they will lose caps I’m not at, and then I’ll have to run away from a 5v1 or die trying.

I’m winning around one game out of three at the moment, no matter how well I play. I’m a formerly platinum-level player currently sitting at silver 2/3 (can’t recall precisely, I placed gold 1 and have dropped steadily since). And it genuinely feels like the game somehow thinks I’m still platinum MMR and, even though it’s placing me in silver/gold games, is compensating by selecting a really weak friendly team and a really strong enemy team.

I know how crazy that sounds, but after playing nearly 60 games, that’s just how it feels.

It’s getting to the point that I’m thinking perhaps I should select my build based on what I can best carry on, but then I shouldn’t have to be trying to ‘carry’ a game – if I’m a silver level player on my Fresh Air ele, why am I not being matched up with and against other players of that level? And if I’m a bronze level player on my Fresh Air ele and just haven’t fallen far enough down the table yet, then why do I feel like I have bronze level teammates against gold level enemies 2 times out of 3?

Thanks for reading - and for the catharsis. :)

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I don't know if it helps you feeling better, but I have exactly the same experience.

Let's say we just started the game. I usually go close, as this is what is required most of the time from mesmers at the beginning of every match. Then while I am capping, I keep an eye on the friendly team health bars. And all of a sudden they all die, like nuked to death, in few seconds. Needless to say what is next to happen.

I tried also to go mid, but I am no Warrior or Bunker, nor healer. I am just a simple Mirage and cannot carry my team in any way. So eventually I manage to stay alive, keep contesting the node, but my team gets wrecked no matter where they are, close mid or far. I also may be able to stay alive for quite a while on 1v2. This should help my mates somehow, but no... It's all vain

This happens for 4-5 matches in a row. Eventually, I get a good game where the other team is sooo much worst than mine that the game is not even fun and it ends 500 to something like 100 or close to it.

So yeah, I know what you are talking about. It feels like there is something wrong with the MM system. What a news...

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It's actually probably not your fault or the matchmaker's fault. It has to do with the PvP playerbase as a whole and ArenaNet's emphasis on matchmaking speed over quality. People in high-tier play used to queue for 15 minutes or more, because the system tried to only match you with players in your same MMR range. They changed that so it would allow anybody into a game and try to balance overall MMR ratings -- which sped up the matchmaking, but made the matches worse overall.

It's very likely that the population queuing is a very small pool for the matchmaking system to select from. This can result in vast skill differences between individual players, despite the matchmaking system's best efforts. If the matchmaker has 20 people to select from at any given moment, 10 are bronze, 5 silver, 3 gold, and 2 plat... it's very likely to stick the 2 plat on opposing teams, and distribute the rest as evenly as it can. I've seen stretches of 5 or more matches where I was always placed opposite to a specific person, but everybody else changed. You can technically avoid the same player by waiting 5-10 minutes to queue, which usually gives them enough time to get into a match separate from you. The downside of this is that if you're that plat player, you have to carry everyone HARD in order to make up for the problem. That generally means your S-tier builds (Scourge, Boon-vomiting FB, etc) so that your weaker teammates can keep up.

I also want to point out that the problem is greatly amplified if you play at weird hours (like 3 in the morning). Matches will be way lopsided because the player population queuing is even lower than normal.

I don't know if there's a solution to the problem, as the PvP playerbase has been shrinking for a very long time. My feeling on the matter is that the matchmaking system should aim for a hybrid style of speed and quality matchmaking -- guarantee a wait time of at least 2 minutes (maybe longer?), and after that select the most appropriate players in the queue.

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I didn't read the novel you posted, but what Vagrant posted is most likely the answer. Play during your servers 'prime time' to avoid some of this, however it's a trade off I guess. Either you play in the morning and carry your team by yourself or you play at night and play with (and against) 2-3 other players equal to your skill level who are trying to do the same on both teams. Either way you are going to have bots on your team to carry because MM places good players with bad players every game.So, instead of a 1/5 vs 1/5 carry during off-times, you will fight a 3/5 vs 3/5 carry during prime time, if that makes sense.Either way it's all about the same and all comes down to how hard you can carry. So play a strong class and prepare for a LOT of 1v2s.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:It's actually probably not your fault or the matchmaker's fault. It has to do with the PvP playerbase as a whole and ArenaNet's emphasis on matchmaking speed over quality. People in high-tier play used to queue for 15 minutes or more, because the system tried to only match you with players in your same MMR range. They changed that so it would allow anybody into a game and try to balance overall MMR ratings -- which sped up the matchmaking, but made the matches worse overall.

What I'd expect, though, is for such low quality matches to even out around 50/50 to my benefit and detriment, at least over time and given a large enough sample size. 60 games is not a huge sample size but it's high enough that an incidence of greater than 2 in 3 seems anomalous.

Also, the game should think that I'm a Silver-level player, and should be matching me appropriately. At the moment it really feels like it thinks I'm still a Platinum level player, and is matching me with awful teams against much better teams as it expects me to balance it all out.

@Interpretor.3091 said:I didn't read the novel you posted, but what Vagrant posted is most likely the answer. Play during your servers 'prime time' to avoid some of this, however it's a trade off I guess. Either you play in the morning and carry your team by yourself or you play at night and play with (and against) 2-3 other players equal to your skill level who are trying to do the same on both teams. Either way you are going to have bots on your team to carry because MM places good players with bad players every game.So, instead of a 1/5 vs 1/5 carry during off-times, you will fight a 3/5 vs 3/5 carry during prime time, if that makes sense.Either way it's all about the same and all comes down to how hard you can carry. So play a strong class and prepare for a LOT of 1v2s.

I've got the luxury of being able to play at any time of day at the moment, and I've had the same experience at all queue times.

My highest quality games were late last night, when my queues were actually quite a bit longer (3-4 minutes), but I was on my bunker FB and was able to carry the longest winning streak I've had since my placement games.

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Yeah I get most of my wins at night as well. It's easier to win if you have 2-3 other coordinated players who know the game. Makes for more exciting games too if the other team has the same.

I would say that Thief/Mesmer are the best carry classes during off times because they can 1+ effectively and back cap objectives. Maybe scourge too because it's just a really strong carry if you play it well (and even if you don't).

I main warrior so I don't fit any of those roles unfortunately. My thief play blows against actual players. I usually find that I can't be everywhere like a thief/mesmer and I can impact teamfights with my dmg as much as a Scourge or even Holosmith can, so I rely on a stronger team comp and their ability to survive while I win side points and stall far and home im 1v2s.

Unfortunately with the MM system not everyone knows the roles of their class and end up throwing. You shouldn't over commit to far too much as a Scourge (in most situations)and you shouldnt spend too much time in team fights as a thief.

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but that's what happens when the average player level is really, really, really low compared to other pvp in mmo rpgs or mobas. this insta wipe at mid effect moments after close is capped is exacerbated by scourges and even more AOE's. also the average level has been getting lower. we're at the point where u have people double capping close after u said in teamchat that u cap close and they fucking run behind u, after not even commenting in teamchat.

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You are not alone.

I have placed myself Legend tier every season thusfar, this season I have lost 19matches in a row so far without a single win.

I'm currently 1 loss away from gold and all my games are complete blowouts.

Pvp is a big joke atm and I wouldn't recommend spending time there anymore, unless ArenaNet actually decides to give it some attention.

If you like being punched in the face by matchmaking, play this season. If not, spend your time in AT's or other content. Pvp is on it's very lowest it could possibly be.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Let me save you a lot of time trying to figure out what's going on within GW2 match making.Read this, it'll answer a lot of your questions: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/10234/match-manipulation-has-become-meta-arenanet-please-read#latest

Complete conspiracy theory. This match manipulation issue is completely overblown, it attributes your team's failure to being cheated - instead attribute that to the matchmaker not being able to identify when 1-4 players are completely out of their depth.

The reality is that players who are learning the game and have not mastered certain skills are being called upon to participate in teams with immensely strong (top 25) teammates, and immensely strong (top 25) opponents on pretty much every game that these top 25 players participate in. What's worse, is that when these top 25 players queue, it almost always stacks one side.

I've been on the receiving end and benefitting end of matchmaking like this:

TEAM A:Rank 7Rank 12Rank 13Rank ??Rank ??

TEAM BRank 16Rank ??Rank ??Rank ??Rank ??

Then, the Rank 16 guy on Team B loses 20 rating in an 80-500 loss.

The "Rank ??" Players very often display a distinct lack of certain skills, like:- How to chain two defensive skills together in order to survive being focused- Able to recognize where they are not needed (ie: a bunker rotating to create a 3v1 and leaving a point empty.)

The matchmaker is rigged, it decides on 10 players, so be it, that's who was queuing at the time. However, at that point, it decides to put 2 "Rank ??' players on one side and 4 "Rank ??" players on the other.

Why would the matchmaker not do this?

TEAM A:Rank 7Rank 16Rank ??Rank ??Rank ??

TEAM B:Rank 12Rank 13Rank ??Rank ??Rank ??

I just very consistently see (Around 50-70%) the matchmaker has some very questionable skill distributions between the two teams.

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@Chaith.8256 said:I just very consistently see (Around 50-70%) the matchmaker has some very questionable skill distributions between the two teams.

I saw this a lot in season seven and eight when I was at Platinum 1/2 (though since I'm now Silver 3 I doubt I'm meeting too many top 250 players) - maybe half my wins/losses those seasons were utter stomps exacerbated by one team just clearly being stacked with better (e.g. top 250) players, when it would seem logical for the algorithm to distribute the top players as evenly as possible between teams.

I remember reading a few long threads in this forum last season talking about how dramatic stomp wins/losses seemed to often occur in streaks also, so that if you lost a couple of games in a row 100-500 if was a reasonable predictor that you would keep losing if you kept queueing, and that at some point the game seemed to suddenly decide you should win now and would 'snap back' to putting you on vastly overpowered instead of vastly underpowered teams. So that now you'd be the one getting the 500-100 wins.

When I first began losing games at Gold 1 this season after my placement I remembered those discussions and figured it was a weird streak like that - after all, I've experienced that myself plenty of times - and as I didn't want to stop queueing, that if I just kept playing then after a while the algorithm would 'snap back' and start win-streaking me to correct itself. If that is the case, then a week is a depressingly long time to wait for the MMR algorithm to decide it's messed up and start putting you on teams that actually have a chance of winning.

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I agree with you Chaith and I've gone all through exactly what you've said, in multiple previous threads. In fact, I'll drop this link here as well, in support to your statement: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/1814/season-8-match-making-please-contribute-documentation#latest there is clearly something very wrong with the GW2 match making algorithm in general.

The match manipulations are however very real as well. As a prominent streamer, you aren't seeing the worst of this because people don't want the exposure when you are in a game with them. If you want to see the kinds of things that average players are talking about concerning MMs, go play on a random account for a season and don't tell anyone who you are. I think you'll be quite surprised at the kind of bullshit you'll see happening in matches, when people aren't worried about hiding MM activity from you.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Let me save you a lot of time trying to figure out what's going on within GW2 match making.Read this, it'll answer a lot of your questions:

Complete conspiracy theory. This match manipulation issue is completely overblown, it attributes your team's failure to being cheated - instead attribute that to the matchmaker not being able to identify when 1-4 players are completely out of their depth.

The reality is that players who are learning the game and have not mastered certain skills are being called upon to participate in teams with immensely strong (top 25) teammates, and immensely strong (top 25) opponents on pretty much every game that these top 25 players participate in. What's worse, is that when these top 25 players queue, it almost always stacks one side.

I've been on the receiving end and benefitting end of matchmaking like this:

TEAM A:Rank 7Rank 12Rank 13Rank ??Rank ??

TEAM BRank 16Rank ??Rank ??Rank ??Rank ??

Then, the Rank 16 guy on Team B loses 20 rating in an 80-500 loss.

The "Rank ??" Players very often display a distinct lack of certain skills, like:
- How to chain two defensive skills together in order to survive being focused
- Able to recognize where they are not needed (ie: a bunker rotating to create a 3v1 and leaving a point empty.)

The matchmaker is rigged, it decides on 10 players, so be it, that's who was queuing at the time. However, at that point, it decides to put 2 "Rank ??' players on one side and 4 "Rank ??" players on the other.

Why would the matchmaker not do this?

TEAM A:Rank 7Rank 16Rank ??Rank ??Rank ??

TEAM B:Rank 12Rank 13Rank ??Rank ??Rank ??

I just very consistently see (Around 50-70%) the matchmaker has some very questionable skill distributions between the two teams.

That is because they still didn't change how teams are put together. A top player A queues, the MM looks for players somewhere in 150 range and puts a team together. Let's assume at time only top player A and B queued. So they are put together. Then MM looks to put together enemy team. It grabs whatever it can find in the closest range. Since the population is that small it grabs literary anything, even bronze which results in top player C which just queued to be paired with low ranks vs multiple high ranks.While it can't be completely avoided what is even worse is that MM puts those 2 teams vs each other and calls it an equal match. So when match is over, the points are gained/lost based ONLY on your personal MMR vs enemy team MMR. It does NOT consider that player C had multiple low ranks in his team vs multiple high ranks on other.The system works on assumption that every single match was equal and fair.

I have posted about it for almost year now probably and it keeps getting ignored.

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I mean seriously, there are times when you can tell your team isn't "just that bad" no, your team has a player or two even, who are CLEARLY trying to lose the match. If you haven't seen this, let me explain this to you:

  • Players who run into a combat, they only spam #1 attack and often make sure they miss. They never use heal skill and always position themselves to get DPSed and die as quickly as possible.
  • They will act like they are going to stand and defend a node. Then immediately as a single enemy approaches the node, they bail and allow full decap. It's not something that happens once in a match, they do this the entire match.
  • Players who AFK immediately as your team pulls around an 80 point lead, sometimes AFK immediately at start of match. This usually follows with suspicious /chat activity that makes you wonder: "If this guy is AFK, why is he talking to us?"
  • Players who suspiciously talk to the opponent team and are a bit too friendly with them. All the while, they semi/full AFK or just do stupid shit like walk into team fights and get downed immediately, then suspiciously start pointing fingers at other teammates as to draw the attention away from themselves. But if you watch the finger pointer's behavior in the match, you'll notice they never attempt actions that make sense. They only take the worst possible feeding actions, never once doing anything that makes sense in any way. It would require much knowledge of conquest to know how to take the worst possible action at a given time. Just the same as it requires knowledge of conquest to know how to take the best actions possible. After awhile, you can see that what they are doing is not random at all, it is calculated.
  • Oh and those times when your team begins with some 250 point lead to 50. Your team is playing like plat 2 or above players, clearly dominating combat and all rotations. They clearly aren't getting lucky, they are visually just stronger players than the other team. Then all of a sudden, your players turn into bronze 1 level combatants and suddenly begin acting like they don't understand rotations or even the point of conquest at all. This happens too often to be a coincidence. It's game throwing. I'm sure there are plenty of other players reading this who have seen exactly what I'm referencing, plenty of times.

Look, during inhouses/scrims/ATs you get real matches. The flow of the matches distinctly feel real. If you see a turn around from a 250 to 50 lead, it isn't because one team suddenly loses their skill and begins showing questionable behavior, it happens because one team actually pulls a clutch rotation and is able to hold on to it. Point being: during ranked games you see questionable and unreasonable behavior that is responsible for sudden clutch loses that never happens in real 5 man vs. 5 man settings. You've got to wonder why that is.

Furthermore, I never see these things happening in unranked, where there is no incentive to match manipulate. Got to wonder why that is.

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A-net allows 200+ MMR difference regulary in matches. It causes a lot of problems in match quality. Most people don't seem to want to wait for longer queues for better matches so we get a lot of poor matches. The best season for me personally was when they put you in groups with people right in your MMR range only. They killed it because the worst of the worst were routinely losing like 10 straight matches. This matchmaking supports the weakest and the very strongest players currently. The vast middle group of players get the brunt of it either getting stuck with awful teammates or facing people signifincatly better then them a lot of the time or so some combo of the two. I would say that 1/3 of my pvp losses are like 500-100 type scores basically no hopers.

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this season for me the loss streak anomaly was greatly reduced, had only 1 ocorrence in 7 days at maximum 5 or 6 loses streakes.. On the past season was kinda of rule when i was near platinum i get like 20 loses on streak.

I think it has to be with timezone, last season I played early in the morning (-3hrs difference to server), and in the current one I'm playing more at night (near the time of the server reset when is 9pm to me)

Another anomaly is hell of weekend warriors on Sundays. if you play on Sunday get ready for a very weird teamates.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Look, during inhouses/scrims/ATs you get real matches. The flow of the matches distinctly feel real. If you see a turn around from a 250 to 50 lead, it isn't because one team suddenly loses their skill and begins showing questionable behavior, it happens because one team actually pulls a clutch rotation and is able to hold on to it. Point being: during ranked games you see questionable and unreasonable behavior that is responsible for sudden clutch loses that never happens in real 5 man vs. 5 man settings. You've got to wonder why that is.

i agree with all, but this point I think it's psychological. It is the initial overconcentration burnout. The team starts super concentrated and focused on the beginning and as soon as they get a big advantage, the brain "relaxes".

the bad interface UI does not help much, since the score is number and does not help much to realize when the enemy team is recovering. Usually I make calls in team chat when I see the difference that was 200 points to fall to 100 points. When the difference between the two teams is less than 50 points, it is the red alert.

Theres some topics here suggestion changes to reduce problems due to lack of attetion.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/1251/the-spvp-ui-upgrades-we-need-and-probably-deservehttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/1338/pvp-ui-encourages-the-lack-of-attention

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Furthermore, I never see these things happening in unranked, where there is no incentive to match manipulate. Got to wonder why that is.

I'm pretty sure we should all start wearing tin-foil hats because this is definitely an overblown conspiracyz The players you are defining as 'throwing' are literally just bad, horrible, atrocious players. Even if you are top 50 or 25 or even 10 you are still going to get ass players on your team who, just like Chaith so eloquently put, can't decifer their own asses from their own heads.It's the MM system bro, I don't think anyone is dedicated enough to ruin your games.

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Well, the pattern at the moment for me seems to have settled into:

Play a profession that's fun and dynamicTeam rotates at random, dies everywhere on map I'm not, dies in herds to outnumbering fights off-point, trickles into suicidal 1v4s at mid (etc)Lose.

or

Play OP meta bunker FB that nobody in silver seems to understand how to killSurvive relentlessly, keep teammates alive despite themselves, safestomp everything in sight while furiously typing in team chat and pinging map to herd teammates to good rotationsWin.

At the moment feels like every single game 4/5ths enemy team is just vastly superior to the 4/5ths my team. Bunker FB (specced for revives, of course) and furious chat dictatorship is the only thing that can tip the balance for me. :/

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Have you played Mass Effect 2? I call it "Archangel Syndrome". In short, Garrus was leading a band warring with the criminals at Omega station, was lured to leave them and they all died.The MM recognizes you as leader and gives you lesser players so you can guide them, but you are not wide enough to cover whole map. Fight tunnel vision and you shall prevail.

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@paShadoWn.5723 said:Have you played Mass Effect 2? I call it "Archangel Syndrome". In short, Garrus was leading a band warring with the criminals at Omega station, was lured to leave them and they all died.The MM recognizes you as leader and gives you lesser players so you can guide them, but you are not wide enough to cover whole map. Fight tunnel vision and you shall prevail.

Second paragraph almost certainly factually false but emotionally true. I smiled. Thank you.

(Edit: ME2's one of my favourite games, and I was a minor ME3 multiplayer youtube personality also.)

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