Support Vindicator WvW Nerf

[Sarlan.7682]

Can we get a rework on Energy meld now? Like for example If used the next utility skill used will give extra effects: Viktor: boons granted by the next Skill also effects allies 

Dmg vindi stance (dint know the name rn): next Skill used Deals extra DMG around the caster

Dwarf: next Skill used Grants stability

Ventari: next Skill Grants light aura

Demon: next Skill used Grants DARK Aura

Shiro: next Skill used grants superspeed

Or sth along those lines....could Open Up Legend interplay and actually give vindi a class mechanic that links legends

 

[Sarlan.7682]

Btw Just found Out its still 1.5 sec of prot you get on the dodge

[ArthurDent.9538]

1 hour ago, Sarlan.7682 said:

Btw Just found Out its still 1.5 sec of prot you get on the dodge

The extra second is from the boon extension. Still kitten.

[Anonynja.3172]

Anet has not designed the Vindicator. They are throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. Following the changes to this class from the first EoD beta weekend has been disappointment after disappointment. They clearly have no idea what Vindicator is supposed to be. 

Let's hope the November balance patch features a well-thought-out rework of Vindicator. But the first beta weekend was a year ago and they haven't figured the class out. I am not holding my breath. It's one of 27 especs + 9 core 'classes' they have to balance, with very low play rates in PvE... It can gather dust for years before getting proper design attention.

[EriskRedLemur.7153]

Yes they need some rebalancing as Vind in WvW it did BUT this is extreme LIKE ALWAYS... and to do it as additional notes... where most ppl will miss like I did; and realize wtf is wrong with my Vind now? And beyond the dodge issues which they just are like a monkey pressing random keys to see what happens, with Vind in general... idk, it's not useless, it's not bad, but it's like, "scrapper too OP... oh Vind oops uhh, here... ohh still part of new meta? Here not anymore, there scrapper there go rise again..." lol I guess Druid actually will be considered more now, which was IMO underrated. But that'll prob get nerfed too. 🙂

[Bunny.9834]

PvP Vindi needed to be nerfed because good players there know how to exploit the dodges. 

 

However. They shouldve left the WvW and PvE Vindicator alone for now because those versions haven’t really fully caught up yet with the meta and needed that extra boost of OP to be viable. 

Now the Vindicator is once again back in the trash in all game modes. 

These balance decisions are so inconsistent amongst professions. 

 

[cenesirio.7124]

As a WvW healing Vindicator, I have to admit the class needed some sort of nerf  even in World vs World, but I think Anet went too far. I don't even think they tried the changes they made, they just nerfed every single aspect to reduce stamina regeneration without even thinking about making the class underpowered again compared to the others.

I wonder why it took YEARS to balance Scourge and Firebrand (still not balanced) and some/few weeks to make Vindicator quite useless.

Edited October 19, 2022 by cenesirio.7124

[GenerationX.9178]

yes good player knowning how to play the game! wow!  exp shouldnt mean anything! 

[Buran.3796]

45 minutes ago, cenesirio.7124 said:

I wonder why it took YEARS to balance Scourge and Firebrand (still not balanced) and some/few weeks to make Vindicator quite useless.

   Actually Firebrand is quite balanced: god tier in PvE and WvW zerging, bottom tier in PvP. The same as Mechanist (replace Mech with Scrapper in WvW, tho).

[EriskRedLemur.7153]

Having played Vind Support in WvW a bit now since changes (and no not geeking away at numbers just my lay experience )... it's HP healing is still pretty strong; and there's food options to raise endurance used in the roaming version, even with the saints shield nerf yes it's noticeable esp with barrier BUT still good, a bit bursty now. The 5 energy on Tree Song actually is deceptively big more than the CD; the condi cleanse suffers to me as a result more than any healing but, eh. I mean, I don't think Vind WvW Support is now useless; it's still way better than it was before OCT 4th - just not the new go to and feels just off now a bit and slower; and I expect them to just continue the nerfs over actually thinking how to balance it properly because they clearly have no clue what they're doing with the elite lol just moving pieces around subtracting numbers like a JENGA game. I'm waiting for it to topple over. So I hesitate to invest more times with it, I expect the nov update to really screw Vind on all modes given how they're handling it now. 🙂

Edited October 19, 2022 by EriskRedLemur.7153

[Angesombre.4630]

If the problem is stamina just change the intermediate traits, but don't touch the rest it looked like nothing it had a small improvement to make it be nothing again.

Imperial Impact: (revenant vindicator) is almost useless because it's so low.
Song of Arboreum: (revenant vindicator) is almost useless as it's so low.
Call of the Alliance:(revenant vindicator) is almost useless because it's so low.
Reaver's Curse:(revenant vindicator) is almost useless because it's so low.
Tree Song:(revenant vindicator)
Energy Meld:(revenant vindicator)
Saint's Shield:(revenant vindicator) why knowing that the stamina was nerfed? You don't blame scourge for using barriers, debuffing en masse and converting advantage into alteration.

I'm not sure if it's a good idea to give us a real specialization or not, it's just a bunch of crap that looks like nothing. The alliance is a garbage that looks like nothing.
It's playable, you can destroy it again.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[Vekks.6013]

Congrats Anet for creating a new viable support for wvw and immediately obliterating it to return us back to fb/scrapper meta. Well done, "support diversity" accomplished. Just pull your teams off the game mode honestly, they're not making anything better.

[Angesombre.4630]

The revenant has a toe problem, we amputate his whole leg.

Anet is like going to the dentist to have a tooth pulled and coming out with 4 less.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[amberrosalie.5381]

Honestly, what happened to transparency and providing the thought processes before balance patches, Anet? Because there is utterly no rhyme or reason to your absolutely gutting of this class. This sort of knee-jerk axing of skills and traits is something I would expect to see when the game is broken and being exploited or a class is un-killable - the first nerf being understandable. I had hoped to wake up this morning to a reversal of some of the changes, but alas, here we are. Instead of coming at vindi with any sort of finesse and taking the time to nudge it in the right direction, you've taken a hatchet to it at the knees.

 

I'm not sure how you can say that you want to change up the FB/Scrapper meta and then proceed to make the changes you have. I guess if there's any consistency, you are continuing to remove the rewarding feeling for players being incredibly good at their classes and being able to do some amazing things with that skill. Could vindi have used a further nerf? Sure. But this, as other's have said, is not a nerf. It's a near obliteration.

 

The most you can say about the balance of heal/cleanse support classes in WvW at the moment is that they all feel bad in one way, shape or form. Where supplementing the supports with another class or two per squad was safe and comfy, it's now required per party if you want to live through this new condi-heavy meta. In a game where finding people who want to play support (hell, even getting people on a class that's actually viable as just dps in WvW), can already be tough enough, let's require more of them to play support..

 

I also have already had friends and guildies who are newer to the game and don't have legendaries already upset at the gold they spend trying to gear everything up to be as helpful as they can to their guilds and server in general only for things to be nerfed into the ground. Which, just overall isn't a good look to them from the game. Big PvP nerfs? Sure, you don't really have to spend much to play in that game mode.

 

And since I've rambled on long enough, I guess my final question also is, you just released a new expac. A new elite spec that didn't necessarily see huge gameplay got a massive upswing from the initial balance and even still after the patch and got people excited to play something new and excited to play the game again. And then you nerf it hard enough that had people miserable at the thought of having to go back to the thing you were trying to push away from as the very reason for the last balance patch? Why? I just don't see the logic. 

 

I hope some of these changes get reverted. It was a fun and rewarding class and still could've been with a smaller adjustment/s. In the meantime, we can all get excited to play mediocre supports. Wew. 🙂

[Angesombre.4630]

I haven't really seen much vindicator in WvW lately, but was it still too powerful at this point? before the halloween update

Edited October 20, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[Zaret.1450]

On 10/19/2022 at 2:36 PM, Sarlan.7682 said:

Can we get a rework on Energy meld now? Like for example If used the next utility skill used will give extra effects: Viktor: boons granted by the next Skill also effects allies 

Dmg vindi stance (dint know the name rn): next Skill used Deals extra DMG around the caster

Dwarf: next Skill used Grants stability

Ventari: next Skill Grants light aura

Demon: next Skill used Grants DARK Aura

Shiro: next Skill used grants superspeed

Or sth along those lines....could Open Up Legend interplay and actually give vindi a class mechanic that links legends

 

Maybe the elite? like it improves the next elite skill you use.

archie, just double spear dmg, itll be fine

vick, shatering the urn gives alacrity too, more alac per health threshold

shiro instead of just an explosion it is a jade wind tornado that does dmg and cc each pulse for 3 pulses

jalis, stab on the elite what more woukd you want?

mallynx maybe bigger area or it also burns

ventary, shatering the tablet gives alac, or cleanses condis or just a big badabum heal

[Zaret.1450]

4 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

I haven't really seen much vindicator in WvW lately, but was it still too powerful at this point? before the halloween update

i have seen lots, and played it, it was strong, but not too strong or overpowered, the nerfs arent that big either, but the healing dodge nerf is unneeded, they went a bit too far

[EriskRedLemur.7153]

It's not useless, but barely usable after playing more; I was just playing with pointless hope - it just feels off too much; you constantly feel behind/making up for the nerfs, it still CAN heal strong but in bursts and with pressure you are barely keeping up; condi cleanse is meh now; it wasn't even OP before imo. You need to do more than JUST heal well; and Vindi doesn't provide superspeed, many other buffs, so with now below averge condi cleanse, awk timing, inconsistent heals... idk the devs TRY to make support diversity and ALMOST succeed nothing will ever be equal all across the board; so it's whack-a-meta - a class comes up to rise and they just gotta smack it down; yes they created the issues with the dodge fiasco they don't know what to do with Vindi clearly... so ironically they're just pushing things back to scrapper/FB meta lol. I get it in WvW/PvP Vindi is not JUST support the roaming/DPS Vindi was a big problem BUT... eh whatever. It was short lived enough to really get too invested in it and it just was setup to get nerfed more.
 

[amberrosalie.5381]

7 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

i have seen lots, and played it, it was strong, but not too strong or overpowered, the nerfs arent that big either, but the healing dodge nerf is unneeded, they went a bit too far

 

I think it's too contradictory to say both of those statements in the same sentence because for something to be nerfed across multiple traits and skills by 40%-75% it was either too strong or the nerf is rather ridiculous. I think the healing nerf could have hurt less had they not also nerfed all your endurance regen for said dodge which is basically the feature of the class. And then also the cleansing. >.<

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by amberrosalie.5381

[Za Shaloc.3908]

On 10/19/2022 at 1:31 PM, cenesirio.7124 said:

As a WvW healing Vindicator, I have to admit the class needed some sort of nerf  even in World vs World, but I think Anet went too far. I don't even think they tried the changes they made, they just nerfed every single aspect to reduce stamina regeneration without even thinking about making the class underpowered again compared to the others.

I wonder why it took YEARS to balance Scourge and Firebrand (still not balanced) and some/few weeks to make Vindicator quite useless.

Yeah I agree. Nerfing traits so hard makes making builds feel really boring and less intentional because it severely limits the choices one has available to them. It is the main reason all the 300s cooldown traits were all so hated by the community.

Also yeah. I do find it a bit weird how quickly they brought down the nerf hammer on Vindi despite so much stuff remaining absolutely broken for years upon years. Perhaps it happened at an inopportune time with CMC moving into the lead position whereas before WvW balance was largely neglected. I dunno. I can't say I have enjoyed fighting against the dodge spam support Vindi builds, but it is still a bummer for any dedicated Rev player considering how meme tier a true support role has been for the class for so long (in competitive). Maybe with them looking at WvW balance more, they'll actually look to adjusting the Minstrel stat set, which IMO is a much bigger underlying issue than individual support balance.

 

Nah...that'll never happen.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Za Shaloc.3908

[Angesombre.4630]

Frankly I'm at a stage for the revenant where the successive nerfs have disgusted me for the last 3 years. Vindicator is the specialization that has seen the most nerfs since its beta. And on top of that there are still bugs in it since the beta. Seriously I don't believe in anything on it anymore.

Why did you change the grandmaster traits so much when all the stamina traits were changed, even the revenant core traits were changed to vindicator. Just change the traits of Master (intermediate)

Edited October 21, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[Angesombre.4630]

The scourge gives 2 times more barrier than the vindicator. I'm not an expert on it and yet I give 1,8k to 10k barrier in WvW.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[Henrik.7560]

Why can't we do the same treatment to firebrand? It's been meta for 4 years and everyone sick of playing it. But a new support finally becomes good and you crush it instantly. Way to go, balance team.

[Zaret.1450]

8 hours ago, amberrosalie.5381 said:

 

I think it's too contradictory to say both of those statements in the same sentence because for something to be nerfed across multiple traits and skills by 40%-75% it was either too strong or the nerf is rather ridiculous. I think the healing nerf could have hurt less had they not also nerfed all your endurance regen for said dodge which is basically the feature of the class. And then also the cleansing. >.<

 

Ill try to explain then, vindi was strong before this last changes, thats undeniable, but it wast like a fb or the old scrapper, it was in a very good position but not broken.

as for the nerfs, its true that only endurance nerfs were enought, the thing is, with all the endurance you gain, plus energy sigil, etcetera, and the 2 dodges, we have enought endurance even with the last patch nerfs, so those werent killing strikes so to say, but nerfing the healing dodge was unneeded, there are other healers/cleaners, with as many cleanses as us, so it was going a bit too far, looks like rev cant be best in slot in this game.

[Trigarta.3841]

I play support most of the time in WvW. I tried out support Vindicator because I wanted to get out of the Firebrand/Scrapper meta and play another support that is not them. Well that time didn't last long. I was having fun with Vindicator and there probably needed to be some adjustments down the line but it didn't feel overpowered. 

Now ANet came down hard with the nerfbat and made the spec unappealing to me, again. Why would I play it now other than flavor? It's healing and barrier was nerfed a lot, cleansing wasn't amazing before and now is even less so, I don't bring a lot of buffs. So why would I play a subpar spec? I was really hoping that ANet would finally break up the stale support meta so that I would have more choices but It's back to fb/scrapper again. So much for having fun...