Core rev needs ranged weapon

[Scoobaniec.9561]

On 11/8/2022 at 12:41 PM, Aeolus.3615 said:

TDLR Revenant dont have a lonbow range pew pew low ewfort mode 😉

Now if only Anet fixed hammer.... that would be a good thing!

for the confused players rev has 2 ranged weapons why is the 3rd  needed?

Read the title. Bai

[Aeolus.3615]

15 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Read the title. Bai

IT actually has a range weapon, bai....

Clues:

A)  Its skill 2 actually overlaps slightly the 1200 range but wont hit players in melee since skill starts arround 260ish range.

B) Enemies are able to be struck by this ability only once every 0.5 seconds per Revenant.

C)This skill can often fail to progress on uneven terrain, or will behave wildly, going in an unintended direction.

If it works well its another story or at minimal a case for discussion.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[SlayerXX.7138]

On 10/29/2022 at 5:10 PM, otto.5684 said:

Warrior has 2 ranged weapons that are better than hammer in pve. And all classes have at least 1 good pve ranged weapon in pve, except rev for some reason. Though, hammer could be significantly improved in pve.

I don't know about that chief. Rifle on warrior is unusable, hammer may be more unusable, but Warrior doesn't have two range weapons in PvE. You better of throwing spears as vindicator then equipping a rifle in PvE. Also could you define what good means here. Thief gets away with pistol on the second weapon set, because of imitative not because pistols are good on a dps basis. Also the peasant professions normally need their weapon swap for dps so holding a subpar weapon in the second set might not always be feasible if the melee hate isn't strong enough.

 

On 10/29/2022 at 5:51 PM, soul.9651 said:

Well the way i see renegade and especially condi, yes it does have a little bit of ranged dps in it with the shortbow itself, but even when you are on shortbow you still need to be close to the target to get the use of mallyx elite skill, and after you are done with demon stance and swap to kalla + you swap to the mace and axe aswell so at that moment you become fully melee dps

Well that's a little specific, when we talk about weapons in general. You could switch that up for a neglectable damage loss. Shotrbow on Rev is one of a selected few weapons who can be camped in Range with no punishment. A privileges the ranger funnily enough doesn't have. 

 

Hammer is complete garbage in PvE. I rather have Hammer damage increased/reworked then doing something as outlandish as adding a new core weapons for one class specifically because they let core weapon sets rot.

[Batalix.2873]

Rev is not a ranged profession.

 

Scholar professions are ranged classes with spells.

 

Adventurer professions are ranged classes with projectiles.

 

Soldier professions are not designed to be ranged classes. They are generally melee and close distance with gap closers and very few ranged options. The tradeoff for Rev is that instead of specializing in healing (Guardian) or attacking (Warrior), they use a lot of speed, teleportation, and disabling.

 

That is literally their entire identity. They do not need ranged weapons. They just hop through the mists if distance is an issue.

 

Furthermore, ranged builds are a major problem in GW2's balance. Nearly half the playerbase uses a small subset of ranged especs because they make the game so much easier: Mech, Virtuoso, Scourge, Specter, Harbinger (and to some extent Tempest, Druid and Renegade). They are able to consistently do more damage than melee builds because they have the luxury of avoiding mechanics without stopping their rotation, and generally needing less healing/maintenance.

 

We. Do. Not. Need. More. Ranged. Builds. There are plenty, and they need their damage tuned down. OP is just lazy and frankly doesn't have much appreciation for diverse class design. My advice is play Renegade or another ranged class for as long as they are still overtuned, or elsewise accept your hammer and "git gud" with Rev's impressive and unique toolkit.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Batalix.2873

[Elric.4713]

1 hour ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Rev is not a ranged profession.

 

Scholar professions are ranged classes with spells.

 

Adventurer professions are ranged classes with projectiles.

 

Soldier professions are not designed to be ranged classes. They are generally melee and close distance with gap closers and very few ranged options. The tradeoff for Rev is that instead of specializing in healing (Guardian) or attacking (Warrior), they use a lot of speed, teleportation, and disabling.

 

That is literally their entire identity. They do not need ranged weapons. They just hop through the mists if distance is an issue.

 

Furthermore, ranged builds are a major problem in GW2's balance. Nearly half the playerbase uses a small subset of ranged especs because they make the game so much easier: Mech, Virtuoso, Scourge, Specter, Harbinger (and to some extent Tempest, Druid and Renegade). They are able to consistently do more damage than melee builds because they have the luxury of avoiding mechanics without stopping their rotation, and generally needing less healing/maintenance.

 

We. Do. Not. Need. More. Ranged. Builds. There are plenty, and they need their damage tuned down. OP is just lazy and frankly doesn't have much appreciation for diverse class design. My advice is play Renegade or another ranged class for as long as they are still overtuned, or elsewise accept your hammer and "git gud" with Rev's impressive and unique toolkit.

Melee or Ranged • Invokes Legendary Heroes • Magic-Wielding Fighter

It's literally on the character creation screen.

[Batalix.2873]

Just now, Elric.4713 said:

Melee or Ranged • Invokes Legendary Heroes • Magic-Wielding Fighter

It's literally on the character creation screen.

 

I also have to point out that mace and axe (condi Mallyx) are also ranged, plus Ventari's tablet.

 

So between power hammer, condi mace/axe, and heal staff, Rev has "options." Whether they are ranged options that a player prefers is another matter, but then again I don't play a lot of weapons, ranged or melee, because their feel doesn't suit my tastes. I'm not going to whinge about Ranger having no good melee options just because I don't like how GS feels; I think it's unfair and frankly diluting good game design to expect all the classes to have access to all options.

 

But I also still think that the description is somewhat misleading, in the same way that Ele character creation suggests "choosing your attunement to suit your needs" instead of camping fire or spastically performing a four-part piano symphony.

[Raknar.4735]

Anet could give us a ranged dagger that creates portals to poke people through the Mists, so it's thematically melee & ranged at the same time 🗿

[SoulGuardian.6203]

9 hours ago, Raknar.4735 said:

Anet could give us a ranged dagger that creates portals to poke people through the Mists, so it's thematically melee & ranged at the same time 🗿

Call it queen bees stinger.

 

I'm wondering though, what's with the eastern island statue?

 

 

[BrokenGlass.9356]

On 10/21/2022 at 4:10 AM, Kulvar.1239 said:

Issue is that the weapons are tied to legends.

Sword/Sword = Shiro
Hammer = Jalis
Mace/Axe = Mallyx
Staff = Ventari
Shield = Brill
Shortbow = Kalla
Greatsword = Archemorus/St Viktor

Unless you add a new core legend with a new weapon, it won't be.

 

This has been the reason given by the Devs since the beginning. 

 

I contend however, that there is no Invocation trait line weapon. Or, the "magic wand" with which the magician does all the magic. I get that once Jallis is attuned, the "magic wand" is the hammer. But what weapon was the Revenant using *before* calling Jallis from the mists? 

 

This, to me, is the obvious spot where a ranged revenant weapon should sit.

 

Something like a scepter, or pistol would be excellent here. 

 

I'd use the Trident as a design inspiration. Where each move on the "Invocation" themed weapon has a secondary effect that is different depending on which legend had been invoked. 

 

Personally I think that Scepter would work better as it has the "magic wand" flavor already.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 11/13/2022 at 8:23 AM, Batalix.2873 said:

 

I also have to point out that mace and axe (condi Mallyx) are also ranged, plus Ventari's tablet.

 

So between power hammer, condi mace/axe, and heal staff, Rev has "options." Whether they are ranged options that a player prefers is another matter, but then again I don't play a lot of weapons, ranged or melee, because their feel doesn't suit my tastes. I'm not going to whinge about Ranger having no good melee options just because I don't like how GS feels; I think it's unfair and frankly diluting good game design to expect all the classes to have access to all options.

 

But I also still think that the description is somewhat misleading, in the same way that Ele character creation suggests "choosing your attunement to suit your needs" instead of camping fire or spastically performing a four-part piano symphony.

Mace is even less of a ranged weapon than dagger is on elementalist.

As for the 'heavy armour doesn't do ranged' argument: Sure, ranged is a secondary focus for them, but the other heavies have ranged options that work for any build. Warriors have rifle for power builds (sure, it's weak, but that's a numbers problem, not a design problem). Guardian can get away with sceptre for both power and condition builds because of how Justice works. Even if the bugs were fixed on rev hammer, though, it would still be terrible for condi builds... and non-rev condi builds still have nothing to swap to from mace that actually fits their build.

[Kodama.6453]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Mace is even less of a ranged weapon than dagger is on elementalist.

As for the 'heavy armour doesn't do ranged' argument: Sure, ranged is a secondary focus for them, but the other heavies have ranged options that work for any build. Warriors have rifle for power builds (sure, it's weak, but that's a numbers problem, not a design problem). Guardian can get away with sceptre for both power and condition builds because of how Justice works. Even if the bugs were fixed on rev hammer, though, it would still be terrible for condi builds... and non-rev condi builds still have nothing to swap to from mace that actually fits their build.

But that's what renegade is for... that's one of it's major design premises, to give revenant a ranged condi option.

If your argument is that these niches should net get filled by elite specs, but should be on all core classes, then we also have to add alot of other stuff to other classes. Like how thief would then need a long range dps option outside of deadeye. Ranger requires a mainhand healing weapon option outside of druid. Engineer requires a mainhand support weapon option outside of mechanist.

The list goes on and on. The niche is filled with renegade and I don't think that all niches need to already be filled in the core classes.

[draxynnic.3719]

Just now, Kodama.6453 said:

But that's what renegade is for... that's one of it's major design premises, to give revenant a ranged condi option.

If your argument is that these niches should net get filled by elite specs, but should be on all core classes, then we also have to add alot of other stuff to other classes. Like how thief would then need a long range dps option outside of deadeye. Ranger requires a mainhand healing weapon option outside of druid. Engineer requires a mainhand support weapon option outside of mechanist.

The list goes on and on. The niche is filled with renegade and I don't think that all niches need to already be filled in the core classes.

So any condi rev that isn't renegade gets to just have nothing? Not only in terms of range, but also in terms of having something to swap to that isn't another mace or a massive DPS loss?

Your list that "goes on and on" is just a big list of whataboutism. For thief... core thief has 900 range pistol and shortbow. Might not be 1200 range, but there's a big gap between "don't have anything beyond 900 range" and "your autoattack is melee". For engineer... you should know by now that I advocate for a core melee range on engineer, but support specifically? Really? Engineer is one of the few professions that even HAS a support autoattack on core, it just requires taking the medkit.

[Kodama.6453]

7 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

So any condi rev that isn't renegade gets to just have nothing? Not only in terms of range, but also in terms of having something to swap to that isn't another mace or a massive DPS loss?

Your list that "goes on and on" is just a big list of whataboutism. For thief... core thief has 900 range pistol and shortbow. Might not be 1200 range, but there's a big gap between "don't have anything beyond 900 range" and "your autoattack is melee". For engineer... you should know by now that I advocate for a core melee range on engineer, but support specifically? Really? Engineer is one of the few professions that even HAS a support autoattack on core, it just requires taking the medkit.

My main point is not "whataboutism", it's that some elite specs are exactly designed to fill holes in the design of the core profession. That's why druid is a healer, because ranger was lacking that playstyle in core.

But fair point about the weapon swap. I guess the lack of a weapon for core to swap to is a byproduct of revenant being initially designed with the premise of no weapon swap, just like elementalist and engineer. Unfortunately, they didn't add more weapons to revenant besides another underwater weapon when they changed this in the beta, so there might be a need to give revenant at least another core condition weapon.

Don't think that it needs to specifically be ranged condi, tho.

[draxynnic.3719]

10 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

My main point is not "whataboutism", it's that some elite specs are exactly designed to fill holes in the design of the core profession. That's why druid is a healer, because ranger was lacking that playstyle in core.

But fair point about the weapon swap. I guess the lack of a weapon for core to swap to is a byproduct of revenant being initially designed with the premise of no weapon swap, just like elementalist and engineer. Unfortunately, they didn't add more weapons to revenant besides another underwater weapon when they changed this in the beta, so there might be a need to give revenant at least another core condition weapon.

Don't think that it needs to specifically be ranged condi, tho.

Yeah. My general thinking when advocating for adding core weapons is "is this going to keep being a hole that needs to be filled in future elite specialisations?"

Support specialisations having the support weapon makes sense. Like you say, ranger was lacking that playstyle in core, so it doesn't really matter that the healing weapon is on druid rather than core. The more DPS-oriented elite specialisations for ranger that have followed don't really want a healing weapon anyway (I guess you could come up with a weird healing soulbeast based on using heals from the pets, but I don't think it's likely to catch on).

Conversely, core engineer lacking a melee weapon means that if any future elite specialisation is expected to be able to function in melee, the elite specialisation weapon needs to be melee. We've seen the effect of that.

Revenant, I think, is in the latter spot. Sure, shortbow is great for renegade, but it does nothing for condi herald, vindicator (yes, it can be done, but it'll be melee-only and Abyssal Chill has to do a lot of work), or core. All of which have the problem of not having a suitable weaponswap. Sword and staff are sometimes used for utility and defence, but are fundamentally power weapons, and hammer is an outright wrong choice for any condi build except that you don't have an alternative. Sure, they could fix the 'no suitable weaponswap for condi' problem (and yes, I agree that it's a consequence of the original no-weaponswap design) with a melee condi weapon, but why not kill both birds with one stone?