ANET, Know your playerbase

[Chzara.6590]

They could at least as an optional method make Gift of Battle obtainable via Raids. That gave Raids a new purpose and i wouldn't get sick and tired of 5 vs 2x 50+ blobs. Then i can peacefully get my GoB's and you can play your hardcore pro outnumbering and doubleteaming the weaker servers all day long.

[Custodio.6134]

2 hours ago, Chzara.6590 said:

They could at least as an optional method make Gift of Battle obtainable via Raids. That gave Raids a new purpose and i wouldn't get sick and tired of 5 vs 2x 50+ blobs. Then i can peacefully get my GoB's and you can play your hardcore pro outnumbering and doubleteaming the weaker servers all day long.

This will not happen for the same reason why you cannot get Gift of Exploration in WvW. Or why i cannot mine Bloodstone in Dragonfall. GoB is meant to be obtained via WvW. period. 

[Mabi black.1824]

On 10/22/2022 at 1:38 PM, Cyninja.2954 said:

The main reason for alliances is the same as in PvE: make the maps and content player number future proof.

I'm probably wrong,

but our maps and the way they are played, have nothing to do with the logic of PVE. Every 2 months on the day of the reconnection I lost count of the complaints of how these pairings were broken, we also saw the week before the beta teams with differences of almost 4 : 1 . I was convinced that this makes the competition useless, I was convinced that Anet wanted to rebuild credibility and give the opportunity to his players. to clash, to test their skills with a competitive environment between similar teams.

But maybe I'm wrong.

In any case, with alliances we can have more granularity, and Anet will be able to build these teams better and automatically. This does not exclude a priori that we can reason and do something that helps to contextualize alliances in this game mode that involves comparing a great kingdom against another great kingdom. With this the realms do not have to be static and eternal. We decide the rules together with Anet, we make a season of 6 months or 12 months.

So that that part of players, big or small, can still identify with a great team, and finally now that the competition can be credible, will be even more stimulated than before to participate in the mode to create content for his team and pre try to climb a credible ranking for his team. All this while it is part of his alliance.

 

[Mabi black.1824]

On 10/22/2022 at 2:55 PM, Swagger.1459 said:

A “world” will be made up of guilds and alliances. Players stay with their guild and their respective alliance, which will number up to a possible 1,500 people… so what’s the real problem? The reassigned name of a “world” after 8 weeks? You still get to play with your guild and alliance. 
 

For balance reasons, some guilds and alliances may be mixed, but it’s exactly what happens now with matching servers and transfers… But the benefit to alliances is that you can play with all your guildies and chosen formed alliance. 
 

 

Yes, I know, and I'm happy that everyone can play together with their friends, this is really good. And I certainly don't care what name you want to give me as a server. My problem will be to find a purpose within this mode. I used to play for my team, we try to defend or attack for our team, sometimes we succeed and sometimes we don't, I was already in trouble before because the competition has suffered bad blows over the years and Anet has lost credibility in terms of competition.

When The Destruction of the World airs, I will no longer have any reason to create any kind of content or initiative. Of course I will be there with my guild, and we will look around and ask ourselves what to do. Taking that castle is no longer useful to anyone. we can definitely do some clashes with an enemy group, yes ..... Right at the bottom, in the middle of the lawn, we will turn around each other endlessly while we collect daisies and fragrant flowers.

Yes this could be our new purpose in this new WVW.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Mabi black.1824

[Dawdler.8521]

46 minutes ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

My problem will be to find a purpose within this mode. I used to play for my team, we try to defend or attack for our team, sometimes we succeed and sometimes we don't, I was already in trouble before because the competition has suffered bad blows over the years and Anet has lost credibility in terms of competition.

 

What team?

Half of WvW dont get to fight for "their team" already. You get a random link you are supposed to fight for, every 2 month. And the other half run the risk of that too due to bandwagon transfers.

Its not really a new WvW.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

I'm probably wrong,

but our maps and the way they are played, have nothing to do with the logic of PVE.

That has nothing to do with what I wrote.

[Gehenna.3625]

I really don't understand what Anet are trying to achieve here. My current server is pretty bad when it comes to balance between sides and then I come to the beta's and there are major imbalances between sides just the same, possibly even worse.

During the beta one side had a higher war score of the other two sides combined a lot of the time. I just feel that they're putting resources into going from one bad system to another. 

I think that the OP is right that Anet aren't really aware of how their player base plays WvW. I mean there are roamers who 1v1 but also roamers that are just present for camp capturing. I mean these players won't even help you against an enemy player.

There are lots of solo players that look at timers, even more of them during this beta and very few commanders. The ones that are there tend to give up after not attracting enough players to form a group that can handle the enemy zergs. Some WvW guilds only play for a couple of hours some nights, PPT'ing.

I can go on but I think you get the picture: there are many players that go to WvW to have a very different experience. I just don't see them being able to balance all that with alliances.

[Mabi black.1824]

On 10/24/2022 at 11:01 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

What team?

Half of WvW dont get to fight for "their team" already. You get a random link you are supposed to fight for, every 2 month. And the other half run the risk of that too due to bandwagon transfers.

Its not really a new WvW.

Exactly, maybe that's why we see our favorite mode bleeding and suffering? Maybe these big groups of players try to compare and compete with other players? but no but what are you saying......... the mechanics are already broken....... for what absurd reason to think of fixing something. Let's keep it on course.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Mabi black.1824 said:

Exactly, maybe that's why we see our favorite mode bleeding and suffering? Maybe these big groups of players try to compare and compete with other players? but no but what are you saying......... the mechanics are already broken....... for what absurd reason to think of fixing something. Let's keep it on course.

I'm saying WvW is already halfway to world restructure because of the link system. Most of the arguments against and issues with world restructure people have apply to normal WvW.

Heck we even see people argue "I was outnumbered therefor the beta sucks".

Edited October 25, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Mabi black.1824]

23 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I'm saying WvW is already halfway to world restructure because of the link system. Most of the arguments against and issues with world restructure people have apply to normal WvW.

Heck we even see people argue "I was outnumbered therefor the beta sucks".

On this you are right, bad luck wants that the extreme numbers we read from the beta week were in the same game, for those players it must have given a bad impression, but in general it was definitely the best week, in terms of team balance, that we have seen for a long time.

[enkidu.5937]

18 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

During the beta one side had a higher war score of the other two sides combined a lot of the time. I just feel that they're putting resources into going from one bad system to another. 

Thats what the new system will inevitably generate one alliance stacked with organized PPTlers, another stacked with organized PPKlers etc.

 

18 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

I can go on but I think you get the picture: there are many players that go to WvW to have a very different experience. I just don't see them being able to balance all that with alliances.

The sad thing, Anet introduces alliances for exactly this purpose: stack with others that play the same way as you (and in the same time zone). In theory this could have worked out, IF people would suddenly create masses of WvW guilds and organise as alliances. But thats not gonna happen, there will be somme alliances that will dominate, and most ppl will be just random filling mass without affiliation cause servers get deleted.

[Reborn.2934]

On 10/19/2022 at 8:45 PM, Counterakt.9106 said:

I am not sure Anet understands the type of players that play their game. Different groups look at alliances differently from their perspectives. It works for one set and doesn't work for another. They get their alliance feedback from a small subset and have designed the game. Let me try to define them. 

Roamers:

  They like to 1v1 or roam with one or two friends. Typically they should be ok with the current changes. Typically play pvp seasons. They don't have to be matched with any alliance they will be ok on their own as long as there is activity in their time zone.

Hard core guilds:

   They like to fight. They comp up, review videos, try new builds. They have passionate players. Typically have drama and occasional. Whenever they lose they convince themselves the enemy had more players. They implode once in a while and try to reform as the comm goes on hiatus. Typically revolves around the availability of one or two commanders who struggles to juggle between irl and game life. They like and want alliances because they think alliances will balance the game population. They keep switching servers, hate the gem cost to transfer. they hate servers getting full.

Casual Guild groups:

   They care about ppt. They care about pips. They typically do fractals and other pvx content as well. They train new people and act as a feeder for hard core guilds.

Havoc groups:

   These are group of 5-10 players who know each other for a long time. They just fight in a cloud or run havoc in bls, typically try to take objectives. If they get into a good alliance it is ok for them. If they are part of a weaker alliance they are going to have a hard time. The current system largely works for them, they might be a little apprehensive about alliances.

Server moms:

    These are people who live and die for server pride. They scout and hold bls. They talk all day in map chat. They repair walls, run supplies, defend camps, tier up keeps. These people keep the content alive between one group logging in and another one logging out. They absolutely hate alliances because their 'home' now is overrun by a bunch of randoms. Typically there is no place for them in any good alliances and they don't want to be part of any alliances. 

Casuals/PUGs: 

 These people login whenever they want, just take part in whatever content they get. They take it light chat in map chat. They know which pugmanders are decent, which players will push, which players will run away. They play accordingly.  Current system works fine for them. They are already in the servers that suit their playstyle and temperament. They don't have the time to record videos, show up on raid times. They don't qualify for being in a hard core alliance. They don't like alliances because of all the randoms that they don't know.

Cloud: 

   Slightly different than casuals. They fall between roamers and hard core guilds. They are passionate about the game. They care about kdr. They are typically retired pvpers, gvgers whose real life caught up with them. They typically hate well supported hard core guilds. The don't qualify for attendence requirements of hard core alliances. They like bags. They like to be aware of who is playing  around them and hence hate alliances.

 

I may have missed or wrongly characterised some of the groups of players. But I think this a fair representation from my POV playing this game for all these years. There is also some overlap between these groups. But I think ANET gets their feedback for alliance design overwhelmingly from the hard core guild leaders, who are but a minuscule percentage of the population. 

The very guild/alliance leaders who are known to go on extended hiatus randomly. When guilds imploded the fallout was caught by the server construct, from which rose new guilds. But now, if a hardcore alliance implodes the people in that community will get dispersed. ofc, there will be a few of them who keep in touch through discord, but the rip that is caused in the fabric of that community can't be healed as easily. 

 

 

great analysis but you missed only one type of players...

 

The Guildies when they don't play with the Guild and they Tag off to avoid the pin snipping from their Guild enemies :p

Edited November 18, 2022 by Reborn.2934

[MarzAttakz.9608]

Currently I'm a cloud / server mom with server pride.

 

I've done my time from launch as one of the few in my guild (from multiple games) that actively played WvW before ranks or rewards.

 

I've done my time as a hardcore, first in a gvg oriented guild and then a field fighting guild and then a community guild.

 

I am at heart, a WvW player regardless of the label. Yet now after all this time and a number of breaks I am guildless by choice.

 

Not a single guild through out the last ten years still exists and I'm happy about that. I'm too old now to want to deal with the drama, the egos, the pissyness, the pissing on walls, the overwhelming need to prove something. I just don't give a kitten anymore.

 

As it stands my identity, since beta has been Deso. As it stands that identity is now meaningless. I can adapt to it, sure. But do I have to approve of it. No.

 

This week, as a guildless pug, has been an extremely poor and frustrating experience. We're up against multiple 30-50 sized guild blobs on the same team on multiple maps whilst attempting to follow commanders we don't know (I thought pirate ship was dead) without comms (there are one or two advertising discord in chat asking for meta) and trying to communicate (in English, French, German, Italian and some Spanish). Two nights in a row now we've lost EB keep (and been spawn camped) and Home BL garrison to the same guild groups.

 

Quite frankly, if I'd never played WvW before I wouldn't want to. Why learn this mode for kitten all fun or reward. Why join a WvW guild and have to deal with attendance rosters, politics and egos for kitten all fun or reward. Why waste my time doing this for kitten all fun or reward?

 

I understand that a guild is beneficial, a prerequisite even, yet prior to this beta I chose to play and fight through good and bad because of my server and what it means to me, because of the players I know and respect who have stuck it out and not transferred. Because it was fun and purposeful with some sense of pride.

 

I'm sad and disappointed that that means nothing in Arenanet's eyes and concerned that this is the future direction of the game mode. There's a plethora of things they could do to improve WvW as it stands without the need for Alliances. Unfortunately their actions have time and again proven they couldn't be bothered.

 

My pug two cents for what it's worth.

 

 

[Chaba.5410]

42 minutes ago, MarzAttakz.9608 said:

This week, as a guildless pug, has been an extremely poor and frustrating experience. We're up against multiple 30-50 sized guild blobs on the same team on multiple maps whilst attempting to follow commanders we don't know (I thought pirate ship was dead) without comms (there are one or two advertising discord in chat asking for meta) and trying to communicate (in English, French, German, Italian and some Spanish). Two nights in a row now we've lost EB keep (and been spawn camped) and Home BL garrison to the same guild groups.

What I like in your story is how the blobs on the opposing servers somehow aren't also affected by world restructuring causing players to have to attempt to follow unknown commanders without comms and having multiple languages.  I'm reminded of the "my team/their team" meme where "their team" looks like highly organized military force and "my team" look like a mess.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[MarzAttakz.9608]

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

What I like in your story is how the blobs on the opposing servers somehow aren't also affected by world restructuring causing players to have to attempt to follow unknown commanders without comms and having multiple languages.  I'm reminded of the "my team/their team" meme where "their team" looks like highly organized military force and "my team" look like a mess.

 

I'm sure that may be the case for other pugs assigned to Skritwhatever and the blue side (sorry I haven't memorized the random names) if they can even get into the (a?) map.

However the group's I'm talking about are all a single tag with maybe a random here and there i.e. closed Guild groups on comms, try-harding in apparent joy as they mow down everything in sight, yet strangely and possibly anecdotally don't fight the guild blobs on blue (also closed Guild groups due to a single tag). They simply want to farm bags. Is this fun? For a night or two maybe but what then?

My previous comment wasn't a woe is me pity seeking excercise at all, rather a caution against destroying something we all at times enjoy and at times hate but ultimately partake in, for the simple sake of guild satiation in all it's nuanced forms.

Yes I know it's called Guild Wars but sadly they (Anet) seemed to have missed that or failed to capitalise on it properly in the last decade.

The cynic in me sees the potential genius of it: destroy the aborted game mode we hate to maintain for the "casuals" so they leave, appease and feed the fickle narcissistic nature of PvP guilds until they get bored and bandwagon to the next best thing, then shut it down for good and capitalise on the PVE crowd who will spend copious sums of money on kitten like Plush Mount Skins...

Evil Geniuses - then again it's just a game and I'm overthinking 🥱

 

[Xenesis.6389]

19 minutes ago, MarzAttakz.9608 said:

closed Guild groups on comms, try-harding in apparent joy as they mow down everything in sight, yet strangely and possibly anecdotally don't fight the guild blobs on blue (also closed Guild groups due to a single tag). They simply want to farm bags. Is this fun? For a night or two maybe but what then?

Because fighting other groups capable of taking them on wouldn't be fun or as rewarding, most of them will fight each other once or twice and figure out if they're capable of killing them or not, if not they start to avoid or pick on the other side or even jump maps. These players are long past doing anything for the challenge, part of that is the way combat is played these days, but like everyone else they're just in it for fun of farming now, there's no competition to say who's the best anyways, and even if there's a declared one, most people simply don't care. The hardest hit will always be the one who don't conform to their structures, but also too stupid to figure out what they should ignore and usually fight to the death, much to the delight of the organized group who would run after they lose a couple people.

[MarzAttakz.9608]

4 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Because fighting other groups capable of taking them on wouldn't be fun or as rewarding, most of them will fight each other once or twice and figure out if they're capable of killing them or not, if not they start to avoid or pick on the other side or even jump maps. These players are long past doing anything for the challenge, part of that is the way combat is played these days, but like everyone else they're just in it for fun of farming now, there's no competition to say who's the best anyways, and even if there's a declared one, most people simply don't care. The hardest hit will always be the one who don't conform to their structures, but also too stupid to figure out what they should ignore and usually fight to the death, much to the delight of the organized group who would run after they lose a couple people.

 

I know I know - I've been and am repeatedly guilty on both counts.

Part of me wonders why I still care though, and much like my abusive love for the Elementalist profession, there's a certain magic to WvW that I haven't found in Eve, LOTRO, Neverwinter, Two Worlds, FFXIV, ESO or BDO.

And that's the worst part of it for me: Anet repeatedly failing to harness and make something more with that magic.

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, MarzAttakz.9608 said:

They simply want to farm bags. Is this fun? For a night or two maybe but what then?

True.  It's certainly fun for a lot of players because it's not challenging and they are "winning" and getting loot.  I've seen GvG guilds quit when fights offer no challenge.  I'd argue that a lot of guilds don't have that self-awareness though.

I should add that this game also rewards killing the morale of your competition by going after the easy fights and generally playing in a way that makes the other side quit.  Like, one way to kill a double-team on your home borderland is to keep beating up the side that's weaker and keeps you distracted from the stronger opponent until they leave the map even if you lose objectives to the harder fight.

Edited December 4, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[Xenesis.6389]

11 minutes ago, MarzAttakz.9608 said:

I know I know - I've been and am repeatedly guilty on both counts.

Part of me wonders why I still care though, and much like my abusive love for the Elementalist profession, there's a certain magic to WvW that I haven't found in Eve, LOTRO, Neverwinter, Two Worlds, FFXIV, ESO or BDO.

And that's the worst part of it for me: Anet repeatedly failing to harness and make something more with that magic.

I feel the same way with Mesmer, an absolute unique gem of a class, overboard nerfs, but whenever I play another game I always look to see if there's anything like it now. I've played a lot of mmo's but only a couple have been able to kinda match the magic of wvw, unfortunately, eso, planetside, warhammer online....

[Mabi black.1824]

Each of us, passionate players has a favorite class, which makes you feel comfortable in every situation that WWW can propose to you. In any case, part of this magic (at least for me) lies in the servers and their size (number of players), because it gave you the opportunity to feel like a part of that team, sometimes you can be amazed at how your teammates can organize and adapt, beyond your contribution. 

When you go online you put content and try to do something good for your server, and when you come off you know that someone else continues to do it for you. Worlds so big that they collide and try to prove to others that they are '' better '' is a good part of this '' magic '' in this game mode.

Alliances bring a great change in this perspective. Because it is one thing to have the awareness that the worlds have many small problems to be able to confront honestly. It is one thing to have the awareness of no longer having a world and therefore having the opportunity to feel a small part of it, and each one in the different way he prefers.

I have no idea if this will affect a few or many players, the game mode involved worlds vs worlds, so my fear is that it may involve a large number of players in a negative way. And since I'm also a fan of the ''magic'' of this game mode I just hope I'm wrong.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Mabi black.1824

[Krashan.4370]

On 10/19/2022 at 6:45 PM, Counterakt.9106 said:

But I think ANET gets their feedback for alliance design overwhelmingly from the hard core guild leaders, who are but a minuscule percentage of the population. 

This is fantastic post. I played GW1 when I was 30-ish so there are three things you can tell about me now: I'm not young, I don't do 200 APM, and I don't play for 8h a day. I actually think I play a lot for my "age group" like maybe 2-3h/d. I am also paying customer though, so ANET beware 😉

I am in PvE only guild. Out of 150 people, 3 are actually playing WvW at all. They are both "server moms" and they are great moms in my opinion. My age/skill/free time tells me that only thing I can actually aspire to is to be one of them as well. I'm not great at fights, and I accept that. But I always tried to be useful. Scout, support, call out-of-place enemies, always have supplies, built arrow carts, rams and catas.

Change guild? No WvW guild would want me, and I don't blame them, no WvW guild would want my guild in alliance (with 3 active WvW players) and I don't blame either, so I will be just a random with other random people, or maybe I won't as I will just slowly stop playing. This does not play well with my social anxieties.

Should I shut up and get... younger?

So, why I'm saying all this? Because, as it was mentioned on this thread as well, ANET wants feedback so ANET should get feedback.  I we don't tell them, they won't know (don't overestimate their analytics).

PS. Two moms who recently were playing WvW all the time (30k AP, 40k AP) are not logging in for last week.

Don't make WvW an elitist club / mutual admiration society. BTW, how is End of Dragons meta doing?

Edited December 5, 2022 by Krashan.4370
typos

[Chaba.5410]

2 hours ago, Krashan.4370 said:

Change guild? No WvW guild would want me, and I don't blame them, no WvW guild would want my guild in alliance (with 3 active WvW players) and I don't blame either, so I will be just a random with other random people, or maybe I won't as I will just slowly stop playing. This does not play well with my social anxieties.

How do you explain all the older folks who play and are in WvW guilds just fine with no issues then?

[Krashan.4370]

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

How do you explain all the older folks who play and are in WvW guilds just fine with no issues then?

Oh, the "Oh yeah? How do you explain..." argument. "Smoking cigarettes is not good for you!" "Oh yeah? HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN my uncle is smoking 40 cigarettes a day and he is 80!". "Swedes are on average taller than Indians." "Oh yeah? I saw one Indian guy who was taller than one Swede I know!"

They do exists, but statistics is against them, and there is nothing to explain.

(And, long time ago, when WhiteRa was playing Protoss, Husky was commenting a game saying: "WhiteRa is 28 years old, and showing that you can still play Starcraft professionally EVEN AT THIS AGE"... always made me chuckle).

Edited December 5, 2022 by Krashan.4370
typos

[Chaba.5410]

40 minutes ago, Krashan.4370 said:

Oh, the "Oh yeah? How do you explain..." argument. "Smoking cigarettes is not good for you!" "Oh yeah? HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN my uncle is smoking 40 cigarettes a day and he is 80!". "Swedes are on average taller than Indians." "Oh yeah? I saw one Indian guy who was taller than one Swede I know!"

They do exists, but statistics is against them, and there is nothing to explain.

(And, long time ago, when WhiteRa was playing Protoss, Husky was commenting a game saying: "WhiteRa is 28 years old, and showing that you can still play Starcraft professionally EVEN AT THIS AGE"... always made me chuckle).

Look, I'm just asking you to consider something that you might not be thinking about, like the fact that as an older player myself, your assumption came off as mildly offensive (not because of biological facts, but because of your personal opinions and choices due to those facts).  But rather than focus on being offended I thought I'd try to be more constructive by asking you a question.  I know plenty of WvW commanders who lead these WvW guilds and are also older and I've also been in these supposed elitist hardcore guilds you seem rather deadset against, as if these guilds are all full of young players.  They're not.

How about you speak for yourself when it comes to being an older player joining WvW guilds and leave the rest of us out of your rant?  None of what you wrote is an argument against Alliances or World Restructuring.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[Krashan.4370]

13 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Look, I'm just asking you to consider something that you might not be thinking about, like the fact that as an older player myself, your assumption came off as mildly offensive.  But rather than focus on being offended I thought I'd try to be more constructive by asking you a question.  I know plenty of WvW commanders who lead these WvW guilds and are also older and I've also been in these supposed elitist hardcore guilds you seem rather deadset against.

How about you speak for yourself when it comes to being an older player joining WvW guilds and leave the rest of us out of your rant?

I am very sorry that I offended you. If you point me to the right sentence I will try better next time.
You misread me though about "elitist". I wasn't saying that they are, I was saying that ANET should not create a system which encourages them.
Maybe not the best example but both Conway law and Milgram experiment show that certain structures create themselves without being actively pursued, they just emerge organically in environments the allow them.
In environment in which people can gatekeep who join the team, they will (statistically). There is no blame here, this is just how it works. Pretty people marry pretty people.