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Adrenal Healing, Berserker's Power, and Cleansing Ire


CalmTheStorm.2364

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@Cal Cohen.2358 @Double Tap

 

The 10/4 patch saw a modest buff to these traits, but it is still harder than it should be to get maximum value from these traits, especially in 1v1s or small-scale fights where it is harder to reliably land bursts (which good players know to look for and avoid).  Other professions, in contrast, have mechanics where they are completely in control of generating their buffs (e.g., Vindicator's Forerunner of Death and Leviathan Strength --literally just needs to dodge to get a +15%  and +10% dmg buff, respectively) or refresh stacks of a stacking buff when another stack is granted.

 

AH, BP, and CI should all really activate on burst use, not burst hit.  If you're worried that this would be OP (AH and BP wouldn't; CI maybe), here are some alternatives:

1) for AH and BP, reduce the duration of each stack to 8-10s.  This requires more frequent bursting (and adrenaline gain) to maintain the stacks

2) Compromise: Gain 1 stack on burst use; gain an additional stack for each bar of adrenaline spent if the attack hits.  (For CI: cleanse one condition on burst use.  Cleanse an additional condition per bar of adrenaline spent if the attack hits).

3) Cleansing Ire [alternative]: Gain adrenaline when struck.  Cleanse 1 condition when you use a burst skill.  Gain 2.5s of resolution for each bar of adrenaline spent (on burst use, not hit)

 

I think the CI rework in #3 would be ideal; you limit the cleansing but provide a source of resolution, which in turn synergizes with Hardened Armor.

 

Bladesworn:

Only has 1 burst on an 8s CD--and needs to be super vulnerable for 2.5s while charging to get it to count as T3 burst.  This makes it much harder to get full stacks/value from these traits.  A few suggestions (not mutually exclusive):

1) reduce DT CD

2) change the interaction of DT with traits that scale with adrenaline/flow levels.  E.g., 0-2 charges = tier 1, 3-5 charges =T2, and 6+ charges = T3

 

Thanks for considering it!

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1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

 

3) Cleansing Ire [alternative]: Gain adrenaline when struck.  Cleanse 1 condition when you use a burst skill.  Gain 2.5s of resolution for each bar of adrenaline spent (on burst use, not hit)

 

I think the CI rework in #3 would be ideal; you limit the cleansing but provide a source of resolution, which in turn synergizes with Hardened Armor.

Hard disagree. CI is a major game changer imo. 2 conditions cleared on 1 bar bursts is really impactful in a variety of matchups, especially on spell. It would be extremely sad to lose it, and resolution is not an apt replacement imo.

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44 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I think keep CI as it is, with Resilient Roll the on hit part is not as much of an issue, but AH and BP should be on hit.

I do concur that for BSW it is the amount of charges charged that should trigger traits as a special case.

Did you mean to say AH and BP should be on *use*?

 

57 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Hard disagree. CI is a major game changer imo. 2 conditions cleared on 1 bar bursts is really impactful in a variety of matchups, especially on spell. It would be extremely sad to lose it, and resolution is not an apt replacement imo.

 

 

But it's cleansing those condis on HIT. Someone dodge your FC (very easy to do)? Sucks to be you; you get nothing, and those 10 stacks of confusion are still ticking. In both the CI proposed changes, you'd get at least 1 guaranteed cleanse every single time. You'd have to run a study to compare, but I strongly suspect that the guaranteed condi cleanse (plus resolution, in the case of option 3) is of higher value overall. Especially when you consider than resolution also gives a physical dmg reduction via hardened armor. 

 

In any event, option 2 is still a better option than the current implementation. 

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20 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Did you mean to say AH and BP should be on *use*?

 

 

 

But it's cleansing those condis on HIT. Someone dodge your FC (very easy to do)? Sucks to be you; you get nothing, and those 10 stacks of confusion are still ticking. In both the CI proposed changes, you'd get at least 1 guaranteed cleanse every single time. You'd have to run a study to compare, but I strongly suspect that the guaranteed condi cleanse (plus resolution, in the case of option 3) is of higher value overall. Especially when you consider than resolution also gives a physical dmg reduction via hardened armor. 

 

In any event, option 2 is still a better option than the current implementation. 

Fixed it. Ty, preschooler has me tired.

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1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Did you mean to say AH and BP should be on *use*?

 

 

 

But it's cleansing those condis on HIT. Someone dodge your FC (very easy to do)? Sucks to be you; you get nothing, and those 10 stacks of confusion are still ticking. In both the CI proposed changes, you'd get at least 1 guaranteed cleanse every single time. You'd have to run a study to compare, but I strongly suspect that the guaranteed condi cleanse (plus resolution, in the case of option 3) is of higher value overall. Especially when you consider than resolution also gives a physical dmg reduction via hardened armor. 

 

In any event, option 2 is still a better option than the current implementation. 

FC is on trigger, not on hit, but your point is valid for all the other bursts. Yes, CI will only cleanse on hit, which makes it important to land your bursts, and encourages and rewards a more aggressive play style, which I think results in the strongest version of Warrior. Ik that you could argue it still encourages an aggressive play style with “on use”, but I still like the concept of rewarding warriors for landing bursts, providing better skill-scaling. 

With that said, Option 2 is fine. I’m really just talking about reducing the amount of conditions cleansed, I don’t mind if 1 or both are on burst use, but I would in no way reduce the conditions cleansed (I also wouldn’t increase it, I think it’s got an almost perfect balance right now. I really like revamped CI if you can’t tell, so I am definitely biased here, lol). I also don’t really mind CI being on burst hit. AH would benefit more (and make more sense probably) from burst use, for a variety of reasons. 
 

edit; spelling

Edited by oscuro.9720
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Maybe I'm crazy to consider it but would it be bad to ambiguate the traits and start improving and/or limiting the bursts individually by their interaction with traits? Then you can consider the weapon and burst effectiveness on than metric as well... So your longbow and berserk could be triggering traits on use, axe and gs triggering effects on hit, hammer triggering effects on use and on hit, fc on use and on trigger, and ds on adrenaline used.

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2 minutes ago, eXruina.4956 said:

would rather they trigger on burst use completely, and we cna talk about them being op when they're actually op and not speculation. because the playing field is pretty much very op against warrior.

Agreed. I just put the alternatives because a) I enjoy balance/theory crafting, and b) I imagine that fear of the traits being OP was what lead them to leave it on burst hit in the first place. 

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2 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Agreed. I just put the alternatives because a) I enjoy balance/theory crafting, and b) I imagine that fear of the traits being OP was what lead them to leave it on burst hit in the first place. 

I'm going to agree with eXruina here. The devs need to stop being so conservative with warrior balance. Make them all on use, then see where things stand. If CI becomes too powerful of a condi cleanse, then put a CD on it.

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5 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

Maybe I'm crazy to consider it but would it be bad to ambiguate the traits and start improving and/or limiting the bursts individually by their interaction with traits? Then you can consider the weapon and burst effectiveness on than metric as well... So your longbow and berserk could be triggering traits on use, axe and gs triggering effects on hit, hammer triggering effects on use and on hit, fc on use and on trigger, and ds on adrenaline used.

I mean... You *could*do it like that, but that seems like an unnecessarily complicated way to go about things.

 

Further, as @Lan Deathrider.5910 and @eXruina.4956 have alluded to, there really isn't a good reason to NOT have all of the effects be on burst use all the time. Warrior isn't over performing (in fact, now with BS nerfed, there is a lot less of warrior in high level play), and many warrior builds, esp core and Berserker, are downright bad in competitive. Further still, the benefits provided by AH, BP, and CI are in line with what other professions get, but they just get it more easily and more consistently than warrior. 

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@CalmTheStorm.2364But keep in mind nobody wants warrior (except warriors themselves) to have close to no counters (especially cleansing ire). Change like this only make warrior receive more and more nerfs. And about warrior being underpowered - this isn't exactly true cuz 2nd team on monthly AT had spellbreaker. The only reason other team didn't attempt using it it's because vindicator is sadly in ridiculous state.

Edited by Aaron.1294
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56 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@CalmTheStorm.2364But keep in mind nobody wants warrior (except warriors themselves) to have close to no counters (especially cleansing ire). Change like this only make warrior receive more and more nerfs. And about warrior being underpowered - this isn't exactly true cuz 2nd team on monthly AT had spellbreaker. The only reason other team didn't attempt using it it's because vindicator is sadly in ridiculous state.

One Spellbreaker does not a balanced profession make.

 

The rest of warrior specs are struggling hardcore. And even SpB, although doing better, still underperforms most other specs in both duelist and teamfighter roles.

 

You're right, there was ONE spb in the high levels of EU MAT (at least what was visible on Teapots video)... On a nontraditional team with 2 chronos. You'll also note that the SpB was pretty unimpactful and died a bunch on at least one of the maps. I hardly think that proves that "war is fine."

 

Further, I don't think any of the changes in the OP would make warrior "without counter". Even the CI proccing on burst use would be no more impactful than mirage cleansing 2 condis every dodge--and warrior doesn't have the stealth, TPS, or other instant cast shenanigans of mesmers to protect themselves in the first place. In fact, it's Warrior's lack of such defenses which necessitates strong traits like CI. You're going to eat a bunch of condis trying to close with/stick to most condi classes; you need to be able to have the ability to counterplay them. Therefore, it's not about "warriors having no counters," but about having a fighting chance against things that counter them. 

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1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I mean... You *could*do it like that, but that seems like an unnecessarily complicated way to go about things.

 

I suppose my suggestion is made more in hindsight since I feel all of the effects shuffling going through is just as, if not more confusing. As a player who picks up the game in busts, coming back to the game 3 months, 6 months or even 1 year+ later to see several traits in a build fundamentally changed or  outright removed.

 

I still think it could be cool to cater specific burst skills and the weapon's use in a build as another measure of future proofing new weapons, bursts or adrenaline mechanics to these traits (or new traits). But then we're back to fundamentally changing builds with that...

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@CalmTheStorm.2364 CI changed - disable any possibilities that warr would struggle against condies

Adrenal health changed - Passive warrior, very interactive and fun

berserker's power changed - That wouldn't be as bad as the ones above (prob)

IF changes like this are going to be released Adrenal health, CI and even berserker's power are going to get nerfed - Adrenal health and CI especially. But I guess warr players would be happy with just slightly improved version of regen.

And about SpB being unimpactful in Mat - for a person without much knowledge about pvp in gw2 sure. But it's conquest :I

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@CalmTheStorm.2364 CI changed - disable any possibilities that warr would struggle against condies

See my above statement

9 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

IF changes like this are going to be released Adrenal health, CI and even berserker's power are going to get nerfed - Adrenal health and CI especially. But I guess warr players would be happy with just slightly improved version of regen.

AH already pretty much is an improved version of Regen though... Just one that requires 1 hoop too many to access.

 

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@Lan Deathrider.5910Wouldn't it just make CI boring condi removal. I guess it depends on how long the cd really is, but I guess CI with CD isn't such a bad idea.

AH however has much worse scaling with healing power and heals much more than regular regen and it isn't a boon. It means it's much more impactful in engage-like situations where u have to follow the target while healing urself (should I mention u don't have to waste any utilities to get this heal)

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5 minutes ago, Aaron.1294 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910Wouldn't it just make CI boring condi removal. I guess it depends on how long the cd really is, but I guess CI with CD isn't such a bad idea.

AH however has much worse scaling with healing power and heals much more than regular regen and it isn't a boon. It means it's much more impactful in engage-like situations where u have to follow the target while healing urself (should I mention u don't have to waste any utilities to get this heal)

I wouldn't call condi removal boring. Other classes get reward simply for pressing an F key, including guaranteed condition removal, here we have to build a resource that is expended. I've already had to burn other CD's or hit a target multiple times, so why make me have to hit them one more time just to benefit from a trait, when this is not how it works for other professions?

Ditto for AH and BP.

Why does warrior have to be the one to jump through several hoops just to benefit from traits on their F keys when others do not have to?

I'd say the fact we have to build adrenaline to use the skills in the first place keeps it from being boring at all and would not be passive at all.

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