Power Budget needs to include intrinsic stats

[Sunshine.5014]

A Warrior has about 1000 more stats than an Ele (700 Vit, 300 armor). If Power Budget only accounts for the equipment stats, Ele will forever be a bottom class.

Either remove the HP penalty and make all classes the same HP, or ANet need to include that penalty in the Power Budget and makes Ele skills naturally includes more utilities.

[Kodama.6453]

These stats are already considered.

Elementalist has one of the best mobility and damage mitigation potentials in the entire game. It doesn't have the raw defensive stats, but instead gets tons of active defenses.

Also the fact that elementalist basically has 4 weapon sets always available as their class mechanic.

[Sunshine.5014]

6 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

These stats are already considered.

Elementalist has one of the best mobility and damage mitigation potentials in the entire game. It doesn't have the raw defensive stats, but instead gets tons of active defenses.

Also the fact that elementalist basically has 4 weapon sets always available as their class mechanic.

I think you misspoke. It's not that Ele has 4 weapon sets. It's that 75% of their weapon skills are locked away at all time. It's a drawback, not an advantage.

To make it even more clear, normal classes have 50% of their weapon skills locked away, Ele has 75% of their weapon skills locked away. Want to CC? Sorry you gotta swap to Air. Want to DPS? Oops, Fire is on cooldown and is locked away. Wanna heal? Tough luck doing damage until you swap away from Water.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Sunshine.5014

[Kodama.6453]

1 minute ago, Sunshine.5014 said:

I think you misspoke. It's not that Ele has 4 weapon sets. It's that 75% of their weapon skills are locked away at all time. It's a drawback, not an advantage.

You really want to sell the fact that elementalist gets 20 weapon skills instead of the usual 10 as a drawback?

Lol, ok, now I know you are trolling.

[Infusion.7149]

I don't think that health and armor level is relevant in terms of DPS and support. You could run cele/ritualist tempest (I believe it's meta for condi alac) , heal alac tempest (partly magi), or run master's fortitude on weaver if sword weaver DPS was competitive.

Instead I'd request that toughness bonuses be changed at least in PVE on scepter and on signet of earth to damage reduction (see Signet of Judgment, Barrier Signet) or barrier / personal single-hit block.

If DPS is high enough you would be able to run some marauder pieces as well on power builds. That's precisely what people are doing on specter now that the shroud has been nerfed: they run carrion/ritualist gear.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Gotejjeken.1267]

22 minutes ago, Sunshine.5014 said:

 Ele will forever be a bottom class.

 

You've never met a tempest, weaver, or catalyst with a brain, have you?

Mesmer would fit your use case far better as its vastly more niche, but no you decide to go with a literal GWEN staple class 😂

[Sunshine.5014]

36 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

You've never met a tempest, weaver, or catalyst with a brain, have you?

Mesmer would fit your use case far better as its vastly more niche, but no you decide to go with a literal GWEN staple class 😂

Hint: the E in GWEN is for Engineer. Ele has been too meta defining for a long time it's a class of its own!

[Infusion.7149]

17 minutes ago, Sunshine.5014 said:

Hint: the E in GWEN is for Engineer. Ele has been too meta defining for a long time it's a class of its own!

In WVW in core days it was
Guardian (hammer/staff lootstick)
Warrior (hammer/Greatsword or axes)
Elementalist (staff DPS backline)
Necro (well bomb DPS backline boon rip)

Med kit wasn't that strong then , scrapper didn't exist so no stealth/purge gyro, and people were blasting water fields. Firebrand didn't exist til POF and scrapper gyros were basically pets until the gyro rework in 2019.

HOT Raid meta was chrono+druid+ DPS tempest+BS. For fractals it was more or less the same chrono+druid+BS , with DPS from tempest/DH. Pre raids if you're talking about dungeons it was mostly ele and warriors.

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Sunshine.5014]

1 minute ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Elementalist (staff DPS backline)

That's a great joke, I like how effortlessly sneak in the references to numerous Staff Ele and Meteor Shower nerfs!

Now people won't be able to confuse between the meta Engineer and meta defining Meteor Shower Ele anymore!

[Infusion.7149]

2 minutes ago, Sunshine.5014 said:

That's a great joke, I like how effortlessly sneak in the references to numerous Staff Ele and Meteor Shower nerfs!

Now people won't be able to confuse between the meta Engineer and meta defining Meteor Shower Ele anymore!

Actually if you play WvW tempest is quite popular right now and engi is not tier 1 meta anymore unlike Firebrand/revenant (vindicator/herald). It's at least on par with spellbreaker/chrono/scourge in terms of seeing usage.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Sunshine.5014]

Just now, Infusion.7149 said:

Actually if you play WvW tempest is quite popular right now and engi is not tier 1 meta anymore unlike Firebrand/revenant (vindicator/herald).

Yep I know :). And I agree with that.

It's just funny people still bringing up GWEN thinking it means Ele when the E was replaced to mean Engi for multiple years already. The latest patch nerfed Engi, but that doesn't mean that E suddenly means Ele now. It's still Engi and their gyros.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

What you are pointing out is already accounted for in that warrior has some of the fewest amounts of active defenses in the game, AND none of the defensive traits related to it's profession mechanic activate merely on use rather than on hit like the other 8 professions.

What this means in light of "power budgets" is that warrior should end up with more damage and utility than it does now, where as something like Guardian or Necro should end up with less.

Not saying that Ele needs doesn't need work, it does. Weaver should be more rewarding (read: does more damage). The core weapons on ele should be buffed.

But until they formally publish the guidelines on these supposed power budgets we really are left with just talking points to bicker over.

I honestly hope that they publish this methodology and get our feedback on it, and incorporate it in a fair manner. I think you'll see some massive nerfs to long running favorite children and buffs to forgotten children (ele and warrior included).
 

[Fueki.4753]

You compare Elementalist to the literally weakest profession of the game.

Such a comparison is not exactly a strong basis when asking for improvements.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Astralporing.1957]

13 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

You really want to sell the fact that elementalist gets 20 weapon skills instead of the usual 10 as a drawback?

Lol, ok, now I know you are trolling.

At some point Anet explained, that due to ele having double the number of weapon skills of other classes, those skills need to be weaker. It's just like all ranger weapon skills originally had a factored in 20% pet damage tax and it took years to persuade Anet that it's complete bullkitten.

There already is a drawback for having more skills. No need to double tax it.

[Jski.6180]

13 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

You really want to sell the fact that elementalist gets 20 weapon skills instead of the usual 10 as a drawback?

Lol, ok, now I know you are trolling.

More skills dose not mean more effects if any thing a lot of ele skills are copy of each other "just dose dmg numbers" but different look. I think ele maybe the lowest defensive class in the game in the way of being aggressive at the same time unlike say a war whom can be aggressive and have a strong def.

Hp and def needs to be standardize OR power needs to be different from class to class. Ele use to have the most dmg +% and good scaling but these things have been nerfed hard on the ele class and they have been buffed as well as added dmg +% to high tankly classes.

Your point of view only works with the core classes and core game the eleit spec and expatiation comply destroys that mind set. That why most ppl see ele lagging way behind with 2012 mind set balancing and every thing else is 2022 balancing. So ppl try to think of ways to fix it and having hp / def being part of balancing "with elite spec in mind."

[the krytan assassin.9235]

16 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I don't think that health and armor level is relevant in terms of DPS and support.

If you dont think health and armor level are important in terms of dps and support, then i don't see any problems with adding in some extra health/armor onto these classes either. 

Health/armor pool matter alot in both PvE and WvW. Theres a good reason people joke about the downstate being part of the elementalist's rotation. If there's any big aoe dmge or simply heavy sustain during strikes/raids/WvW, the elementalist simply cannot keep up unless they take a considerable amount of vit/toughness/utilities which brings down the dps potential by quite abit. Its only reasonable to  compensate a class for this lack of tough/vit in any way,shape or form.

Armor/health pool are simply outdated mechanics that do not fit in the current state of the game with the current diversity of all the elite specs. 

Edited October 29, 2022 by the krytan assassin.9235

[ATMAvatar.5749]

4 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

You compare Elementalist to the literally weakest profession of the game.

Warrior needs some love, sure, but there's no need to get hyperbolic about it. 

 

Power Bladesworn is the second-place DPS right now.  The closest Elementalist spec is condition Weaver, which is still just over 3K behind.  See: https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks

 

And, while Warrior is the second-to-last in terms of representation, Elementalist is still worse.  Bladesworn and Spellbreaker together out-represent Elementalist as a whole, and Berserker out-represents all but Tempest when comparing one-to-one against specs.  See: https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity

 

Here, I feel a slight jab is warranted: Elementalist has been last-place in representation since February 2020, while Warrior's only been in the dumps since this June, and at no point was Warrior below Elementalist through this period (though it got really close!).

 

That said, the shape Warrior is in strongly indicates that intrinsic stat differences aren't really what's holding Elementalist down.

[Fueki.4753]

28 minutes ago, ATMAvatar.5749 said:

See: https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks

See: https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/popularity

There's more to professions than statistics depending on opt-in players and theoretically optimal benchmarks.

Edited October 29, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[oscuro.9720]

Yep. Base stats should be included, as should the benefits conveyed by profession mechanics, which are generally significantly more impactful than base stats. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

I'm fine with lower base defensive stats, but I believe when I fully spec into DMG I actually should do said DMG and be ahead of everyone else by atleast 20-40%, since how it is fair that going full glass just put a dent into some guardian, necro, ranger or others. Same goes with investing into defense/support capabilities, it should be ahead by a lot from others with the same level of investment. Scaling need to change.

[Mell.4873]

18 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

You've never met a tempest, weaver, or catalyst with a brain, have you?

Mesmer would fit your use case far better as its vastly more niche, but no you decide to go with a literal GWEN staple class 😂

I could say the same for that comment (well maybe sPvP) but in general Mesmer very viable is most end-game instanced content and WvW. Right now Chronomancer with mostly core skills is a Meta pick for most Zergs.

[Infusion.7149]

5 hours ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

If you dont think health and armor level are important in terms of dps and support, then i don't see any problems with adding in some extra health/armor onto these classes either. 

Health/armor pool matter alot in both PvE and WvW. Theres a good reason people joke about the downstate being part of the elementalist's rotation. If there's any big aoe dmge or simply heavy sustain during strikes/raids/WvW, the elementalist simply cannot keep up unless they take a considerable amount of vit/toughness/utilities which brings down the dps potential by quite abit. Its only reasonable to  compensate a class for this lack of tough/vit in any way,shape or form.

Armor/health pool are simply outdated mechanics that do not fit in the current state of the game with the current diversity of all the elite specs. 

In case you haven't been paying attention catalyst is actually common enough in PVP which is why they nerfed it. The minor trait applies stats and hammer earth orb actually has damage reduction. Tempest support is also common now after the buffs.

Weaver has Master's Fortitude and barriers if you trait for it (hence water weaver in PVP of the past); tempest has a high protection uptime to offset the armor deficit. On top of this we now have jade bot cores. The main drawback to PVE elementalist right now is your damage tanks if you take defensives because so much damage comes from utilities and traits while reliance on boons for the attunement swapping doesn't help this. There was a time that the tempest benchmark for fresh air was using Air+water+tempest and some weaver benchmarks ran arcane instead of air or something to that effect.

Any power build could easily be run in Marauder gear and any condi build can typically be run in some pieces of ritualist or even plaguedoctor. If the absolute performance and consistency of elementalist were higher then health would be a non-issue. Right now, that isn't remotely the case even if you count staff condi weaver at 36-40K benchmark with Weave Self rotation , 38K scepter condi weaver, 33k (36K large) condi DPS tempest, or 37K Power Catalyst played perfectly along with something akin to 35K on power sword weaver. It used to be that you could hit 36K+ on power tempest, 40K on condi weaver, 33K condi tempest camping fire, power weaver 39K+. One of the main things Arenanet did that was counterintuitive was nerfing autoattack on hammer when most benchmarks have minimal autoattacks. Lightning orb and overload air RNG is another example of a consistency problem. There's also the consistency problem for alac tempest due to how alacrity is applied on alac tempest.

Arenanet has already changed many of the incoming damage sources to be health percentage based for 10 man content. It's 5 man content such as fractals which has not been updated. The large problem with fractals is the NPNG / Vengeance / Flux Bomb instabilities are counter to elementalists and unlike power engineers , mesmers, condi scourges, condi ren, etc they don't have boon rips or enough range if using swords or dagger mainhand. 

If you think health matters more than active defenses, then I don't know what to tell you since firebrand also has 11K health.
 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[draxynnic.3719]

On 10/29/2022 at 11:52 AM, Kodama.6453 said:

You really want to sell the fact that elementalist gets 20 weapon skills instead of the usual 10 as a drawback?

Lol, ok, now I know you are trolling.

So five-kit holo is among the best builds in the game because it has 35 weapon skills, right? Right?

No, there was a valid point being made. Ele has more weapon skills, but individually they're generally weaker than those of other professions: their power budget for a weapon set is roughly the same as the total budget for two sets on other professions. Which does mean that roughly 75% of that budget is locked behind attunement-swaps at any given time (there are usually some attunements that have more of the budget than others - staff air is notable for getting the short end - but it'd average to that) rather than roughly 50%. Elementalist also has less opportunity to refine their build since they have to rely on what their first set gives them - outside of conjures (which are mostly obsolete nowadays) they don't have the option to choose a second set that shores up the weaknesses of the first.

[SlayerXX.7138]

On 10/29/2022 at 3:34 AM, Sunshine.5014 said:

If Power Budget only accounts for the equipment stats, Ele will forever be a bottom class.

That is a wide reaching claim, based on a rather biased perception of your pet class. It also only affects ele somhow?

If Power Budget only accounts for the equipment stats, Thief will forever be a bottom class.

If Power Budget only accounts for the equipment stats, Mesmer will forever be a bottom class.

If Power Budget only accounts for the equipment stats, Guardian will forever be a bottom class.

I guess with dps PvE balance disregarding Base health it's kind of annoying to just have frailer Dps with no compensation.

[draxynnic.3719]

I think the theory with elementalist is that it combines the guardian's strength of having lots of damage mitigation and sustain, with a bit of the thief's strength in mobility. The low health pool is the balancing factor that keeps things like easy avoidance of attacks and rapid healing of damage that does land in check.

You can see this in sPvP - elementalists can often be pretty hard to take down, since it almost doesn't matter how deep their pool is if they can refill it faster than you can chip it down. However, it falls down in environments where you can rely on a healer for resustain, because then everyone has good healing, but a small pool allows for less margin for error.