This "balance" philosophy is a bunch of BS

[Labjax.2465]

Yeah. Since I came back to the game early this year, I've seen a number of great speeches about intent, but proportionally, minimal followthrough. Not no followthrough, I'm trying to be fair and real about what I've seen, but the followthrough is not stacking up. Like other games I've experienced, there are fleeting moments where it appears as if the studio is going to do consistently better and then it's back to feeling like there's nobody home unless it's patch day and/or a huge PR disaster. I'm simplifying a little to describe my big picture impressions, but that's the general experience I've had. Overall, it's a little better in that department than some other games I've experienced, but not by much. At this point, I seem to have one foot perpetually out the door and not just for this game, but for video games in general. It's like I'm counting down until I run out of patience with the perpetual screwups and proportionally absurd product costs compared to quality of output. I don't blame "the devs," I'm sure some of them are just as sick of it as I am, watching stuff go awry from the inside. But who/whomever's fault it is, I can only take so much of it while still having my self respect intact. As it is, I try to critique thoughtfully, not just as venting, with the dwindling hope things can still be better when I'm probably wasting my time doing it most of the time, regardless of the game it's related to.

Edit: And honestly, it's not just about the games themselves. Video game "communities" are a lot like the studios themselves in that they can be really good at putting on a front of niceness that disappears the moment you criticize them. I've seen how this "community" can at times be very kind, while doing nothing about people who aren't. At best, saying to block them or in other cases making excuses for their behavior. It's a psychologically unhealthy environment to hang out in. It's a testament to how poor my boundaries are that I've clung to it this long. I've tried uninstalling again, maybe I can get it to stick this time. I'm tired of going to a place to relax and having to put up a fight.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[thaniretouni.4762]

12 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I would not say it’s “BS”. Given it’s a new balance team, you can think of it as a sort of “manifesto” for what they intend to do moving forward. We saw the Oct. 4 patch was an overall well executed patch and the first of the balance team. 

The things they said are actually quite important, they explicitly stated a lot of things we took for granted but Anet would never formally commit to, and stated some things that are quite a direction shift, such as there being wrong choices. They also talk about a power budget and a proper implementation of “tradeoffs” (which is opportunity cost; the cost of not being able to select the other options). 

Is this anything substantive? No, not at all. The only substantive thing this team has done is the Oct. 4 patch, which, as I previously stated, was a very encouraging patch. We will see in 2 weeks what the next patch is going to look like. 

Also somewhat importantly, it lays out clear criteria across which players can evaluate their profession. A lot of people evaluate professions with a whole host of different considerations. We now know the actual considerations Anet uses, and how to actually look at professions. 

if they have a concrete plan why not announce next changes and instead they talk about philosophy?

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

I am not a southerner! I really should just say 'everybody' instead of y'all so people don't get confused!

Such a southern term... Alas, at least it's rubbing off on people. Such a great gender-neutral term too.

[Hotride.2187]

BS? What BS friend player? As I spam my fb mantras to grant every boon in the game but alac with minimal investment.

I gotta say, if the balance received as much attention as wording in that post, we would not have to post so much on the forum.

I guess we'll see how things look in an year but I have my doubts much will be changed.

[eXruina.4956]

5 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I gotta say, if the balance received as much attention as wording in that post, we would not have to post so much on the forum.

the same can be said with the discord leaks, if only they have had such urgency and commitment in balancing the game as they were in hiding their skeletons.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

12 minutes ago, eXruina.4956 said:

the same can be said with the discord leaks, if only they have had such urgency and commitment in balancing the game as they were in hiding their skeletons.

One takes more effort sadly.

[oscuro.9720]

11 hours ago, thaniretouni.4762 said:

if they have a concrete plan why not announce next changes and instead they talk about philosophy?

 

Strategy != tactics.

[eXruina.4956]

31 minutes ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Strategy != tactics.

filthy mesmers 💢 🦋

[DKRathalos.9625]

I'd say since this is a new balance team just give them chance to prove their philosophy. If they fail to prove it? Ezpz we go exodus.

Speaking of which the exodus club still accepting member 🤣 you can register yourself to me or Grandmarshal.

[Potato Slayer.3107]

36 minutes ago, DKRathalos.9625 said:

I'd say since this is a new balance team just give them chance to prove their philosophy. If they fail to prove it? Ezpz we go exodus.

Speaking of which the exodus club still accepting member 🤣 you can register yourself to me or Grandmarshal.

What is exodus?

[DKRathalos.9625]

9 hours ago, Potato Slayer.3107 said:

What is exodus?

Quit the game 🤣I've been stop playing the game since february 2022, I still login sometimes to claim the free stuff and free living world episode, that's it. Login, claim, logout.

[draxynnic.3719]

23 hours ago, thaniretouni.4762 said:

if they have a concrete plan why not announce next changes and instead they talk about philosophy?

 

I believe that's scheduled for the Friday after this one coming. (They're doing Extra Life this week, IIRC.)

[Obtena.7952]

Nice ... when the balancing philosophy Anet has been using  doesn't match how you think the game should work ... it's suddenly BS and people quitting and the doomsayer train is coming, etc ... .

Nothing really surprising in this philosophy you couldn't have seen yourselves in the past, provided you were astute enough. It's just that now it's public, you have to face it and deal with it. Some people are obviously more ... capable ... to do so than others. 

It's BS, it's not BS? Believe what you like but it's how Anet does things. Either you are onboard ... or you're irrelevant. 

In theory, the things in that philosophy align with the stated goal. In practice I suspect there will be exactly what we have now ... lots of things adhering to that philosophy while some significant outliers amplifying the fact that those outliers do not. 

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[JTGuevara.9018]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Either you are onboard ... or you're irrelevant. 

On 10/31/2022 at 12:59 AM, Labjax.2465 said:

Yeah. Since I came back to the game early this year, I've seen a number of great speeches about intent, but proportionally, minimal followthrough. Not no followthrough, I'm trying to be fair and real about what I've seen, but the followthrough is not stacking up. Like other games I've experienced, there are fleeting moments where it appears as if the studio is going to do consistently better and then it's back to feeling like there's nobody home unless it's patch day and/or a huge PR disaster. I'm simplifying a little to describe my big picture impressions, but that's the general experience I've had. Overall, it's a little better in that department than some other games I've experienced, but not by much. At this point, I seem to have one foot perpetually out the door and not just for this game, but for video games in general. It's like I'm counting down until I run out of patience with the perpetual screwups and proportionally absurd product costs compared to quality of output. I don't blame "the devs," I'm sure some of them are just as sick of it as I am, watching stuff go awry from the inside. But who/whomever's fault it is, I can only take so much of it while still having my self respect intact. As it is, I try to critique thoughtfully, not just as venting, with the dwindling hope things can still be better when I'm probably wasting my time doing it most of the time, regardless of the game it's related to.

Edit: And honestly, it's not just about the games themselves. Video game "communities" are a lot like the studios themselves in that they can be really good at putting on a front of niceness that disappears the moment you criticize them. I've seen how this "community" can at times be very kind, while doing nothing about people who aren't. At best, saying to block them or in other cases making excuses for their behavior. It's a psychologically unhealthy environment to hang out in. It's a testament to how poor my boundaries are that I've clung to it this long. I've tried uninstalling again, maybe I can get it to stick this time. I'm tired of going to a place to relax and having to put up a fight.

In other words, you are the point I was about 3 years ago! Labjax, you will get to where I am eventually. I can assure you. It's good that you question the game industry. The game industry basically gets away with ripping off their customers while a substantial portion of gaming communities defiantly line up and fellate their buttocks. Those people will not tolerate even thoughtful criticism. So, I just go with direct criticism. (aka 'get to the point') As far the devs go, no, the devs are collectively much part of the machine as NCSoft/Anet. They get no quarter.

Yes, other companies are worse. Blizzard, Tencent, etc. Believe me, they just get perpetual hatred and scorn from me, never mind criticism. Companies like that need to be BROKEN. Believe me, the game industry gets away with a lot in society because of non-trivial segments of the public are eager and defiant to defend their practices and products and their emotional attachment to them. Fanboyism and shilling is rampant in games. RAMPANT. You got industry marketing machines always ready to grease the wheels of bullshite.

But I would not beat yourself up over this, you hung in because you expected more as a customer. I say this plainly because it is an objective truth. You, like the rest of us, bought the thing...so you expect more! It's the same idea as everything else in society that you buy.

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Nice ... when the balancing philosophy Anet has been using  doesn't match how you think the game should work ... it's suddenly BS and people quitting and the doomsayer train is coming, etc ... .

Nothing really surprising in this philosophy you couldn't have seen yourselves in the past, provided you were astute enough. It's just that now it's public, you have to face it and deal with it. Some people are obviously more ... capable ... to do so than others. 

It's BS, it's not BS? Believe what you like but it's how Anet does things. Either you are onboard ... or you're irrelevant. 

In theory, the things in that philosophy align with the stated goal. In practice I suspect there will be exactly what we have now ... lots of things adhering to that philosophy while some significant outliers amplifying the fact that those outliers do not. 

It's called an opinion. Maybe you've heard of such things!

But lo-and-behold, here is Obtena who pretends that we're all "surprised" by anything Anet does! "Either you are onboard ... or you're irrelevant." You could've just said this. It's short and to the point. Would've saved you a bunch of paragraphs.

 

[eXruina.4956]

actually i wouldn't call the philosophy bs, the philosophy is actually pretty outstanding. 🤔

 

i'd call the balance team bs instead for their terrible showing over the past decade, their intentional failure at doing their jobs  (as evidenced by the discord leaks this june), and their lies (feb 2020 and many others). 💢

 

its like that saying, guns don't kill people, people do. 🙂

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Pretty sure the dev at the heart of those discord leaks got fired as they no longer have the Anet icon next to their username in Reddit, but that is just my speculation.

As to Feb2020, I think Covid and layoffs got in the way of fulfilling their promises. I hope that this time they have the chance to follow through.

The published philosophy gives a good roadmap for balance, and points heavily towards nerfs to long running OP classes, and buffs to long running UP classes. I just hope that they do a broad pass touching all the classes first, then come back with more in December and January and then transition to less rapid schedule. 

[Obtena.7952]

19 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

It's called an opinion. Maybe you've heard of such things!

But lo-and-behold, here is Obtena who pretends that we're all "surprised" by anything Anet does! "Either you are onboard ... or you're irrelevant." 

 

No I've heard of opinions ... I also understand many of them are un-informed. Either way, it doesn't change what I said. That philosophy is what Anet is going to use (and I suspect they have been using) to make decisions about changing classes. Whether you think it's BS or not is irrelevant. Personally, I can see that many changes over the last few years are inline with the elements of this philosophy, so I suspect they have been forming it over time and testing it. I guess all that's 'BS' to you because you have a barn of axes to grind ... but to me it says this philosophy is real to Anet. 

That philosophy is much more important than the average forum lurker thinks. Ignore it at your own risk but don't be surprised if you doesn't understand why Anet makes these changes if you do.

At it's face, that philosophy is really good because it explains things to people who are open to understand it  who aren't just looking to use the balance team as an outlet for their disappointment with the game. The challenge isn't making that philosophy, it's applying it to the game. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Potato Slayer.3107]

What

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Potato Slayer.3107 said:

What

That is the common response.

[TugboatSteve.3607]

Isn't there supposed to be a big PvE focused balance patch in November (this month)? Seems like the wrong time to be throwing down the gaunlet.

I'm curious to see what they come up with. October signaled a pretty decent direction, and at least at release the reception here was fairly positive for about a week.

If they massage a couple more pain points successfully without breaking anything else (e.g. banner whoopsy), I'll be reasonably satisfied, as it indicates a good direction.

[Shadowpeixera.2918]

On 11/2/2022 at 11:21 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

Personally, I can see that many changes over the last few years are inline with the elements of this philosophy, so I suspect they have been forming it over time and testing it.

Uh...what? Isn't CMC a new hire? How is his philosophy inline for years now?

If anything, the balance patch that destroyed CC damage in WvW without accounting the fact that Warriors output a lot of their damage through CC skills ( as is their playstyle ) was a hamfisted, overgeneralized way of Anet showing that they were still making changes to the game that were catch-all changes with no grounded thought on how the classes actually play. And i'm highly sure that patch was this year.

I get that you want to portray yourself as the voice of how design really is: detached and looking at numbers instead of forum posts, and i actually understand the frustration, in your hurry, you forgot the timeline, CMC was hired in september, and considering the ripples he's doing, it's clear he's there to shake how the studio perceives the game and it's players, and how it'll interact with it from now on. There's a reason people are memeing him as "CMC Unchained". 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

38 minutes ago, Shadowpeixera.2918 said:

Uh...what? Isn't CMC a new hire? How is his philosophy inline for years now?

If anything, the balance patch that destroyed CC damage in WvW without accounting the fact that Warriors output a lot of their damage through CC skills ( as is their playstyle ) was a hamfisted, overgeneralized way of Anet showing that they were still making changes to the game that were catch-all changes with no grounded thought on how the classes actually play. And i'm highly sure that patch was this year.

I get that you want to portray yourself as the voice of how design really is: detached and looking at numbers instead of forum posts, and i actually understand the frustration, in your hurry, you forgot the timeline, CMC was hired in september, and considering the ripples he's doing, it's clear he's there to shake how the studio perceives the game and it's players, and how it'll interact with it from now on. There's a reason people are memeing him as "CMC Unchained". 

CMC was the balance lead for a long while, he gained the Skills lead after the other guy's poor showing with the first roll out of the banner rework.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Shadowpeixera.2918 said:

Uh...what? Isn't CMC a new hire? How is his philosophy inline for years now?

Like I already said, you can already see how many changes in the past are inline with many elements of this philosophy. Just because they are articulating it and making this available to the public doesn't mean they just invented this and thrust it in the game like it wasn't part of a general scheme in the past. 

But we can put this to rest now ... it's not really relevant if you want to believe some elements of this philosophy were evolving with the game or if it was just thought up recently. It's here now and whether people think it's BS or not, the correct approach is to measure changes against it as the litmus test for if Anet is following it. 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Shadowpeixera.2918]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Like I already said, you can already see how many changes in the past are inline with many elements of this philosophy. 

Not really, i can't. That's you saying it. Can you give me proof that several of the previous big patch notes were in line with a power budget/nivelate how everything plays to a manageable level? Because the way i've seen, no elite specs were created equal, and several of the buffs/nerfs around these big patches were wonky at best.

If this philosophy was there for years, then Anet sucks at executing it.

 

7 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

CMC was the balance lead for a long while, he gained the Skills lead after the other guy's poor showing with the first roll out of the banner rework.

 Thanks for the clarification, Lan. It's kinda weird to see such roles that are so intertwined have such a communication failure.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Shadowpeixera.2918 said:

 Thanks for the clarification, Lan. It's kinda weird to see such roles that are so intertwined have such a communication failure.

Yeah, the empty banner bundles were such an embarrassment for Anet. That dev no longer has the anet logo next to their username on Reddit when I checked last, so you can infer what you want from that. Naturally a hole opened up that needed filling. CMC being the balance lead taking on that role as well and merging them together does make sense in a way, but he is going to have to lean heavily on Roy to get it all done.