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Acro Redo - Let's brainstorm a bit


Zacchary.6183

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Yes! Yet ANOTHER acro rework thread! Just what the Thief forums needed!!1!one

Yes, and no. I'm starting over, with a little inspiration from some of the more useful traits, because the line is a mess. Feel free to give your constructive input. So let's start off with the focus of this new acrobatics.

Focus:

  • Defensive/support line adding in passive and semi-passive defense mechanisms to the rotation.
  • Enhance dodges and evasions.
  • Reward for using dodges and evading attacks.
  • Organized tiers.
  • Making it a viable choice for general builds.
  • Add synergy with less used parts of the profession.

To organize this list, I am taking a note from the mechanist line which essentially slots different attacks for the golem, where each tier of traits modifies an aspect of evasion, barring minor traits. For example, adept could modify the act of dodging itself by enhancing its qualities, or change gameplay where it changes the way it functions in certain skills. There are different ways to go about it, but lets fill adept with things that improve movement and movement boons to start off with.

Adept Minor 

Metabolic Techniques - Vigor and Swiftness you grant are enhanced.

  • Swiftness - Reduced projectile damage while moving.
    • Incoming projectile damage: -20%
  • Vigor - Heals every second.
    • Heal: 250 (.15)
    • Interval: 1s

Adept Majors

Sprint Training - Dodging consumes less endurance and has increased distance when you have swiftness. Gain swiftness after moving for a short period of time.

  • Distance Increased: 60
  • Endurance Cost: -10
  • Swiftness 3s
  • Interval: 3s

Duelist's Momentum - Deal increased damage for a short time after using a dodge or an evade skill. Evading attacks increases critical chance for a short time.

  • Moment of Opportunity 4s: Outgoing strike and condition damage +20%.
  • Moment of Exploitation 4s: Critical chance +20%.

Combat Medic - Using a healing skill grants boons to allies. Granting vigor cleanses conditions.

  • Regen 10s
  • Vigor 10s
  • Conditions cleansed: 2
  • Number of targets: 5
  • Radius: 360

 

Master Minor

Instant Reaction - Increased dodging duration.

  • Duration Increased: 1/4s
  • Note: This increases animation and evasion durations.

Master Majors

Flow of Combat - Evading attacks returns endurance. 

  • Endurance on Evade: 2 (No CD)

Tactical Evasion - Evasion skills that move directly towards or away from the target can now dodge in the direction of movement instead. Evading an attack grants boons. (10s CD)

  • 5 Might 8s
  • Fury 5s
  • Vigor 5s
  • This does not affect shadowsteps.

Blackguard's Protection - Dodging grants protection. Copy boons on you onto allies you pass through when dodging or using an evasion skill. (15s)

  • Protection 8s
  • Boons copied: 12

 

Grandmaster Minor

Endless Stamina - Vigor you grant is enhanced. Gain bonus concentration.

  • Effectiveness Increased: 50%
  • Concentration: +240

Grandmaster Majors

Parrying Offhand - Take reduced damage while wielding an offhand weapon. Cloak and Dagger and Headshot are enhanced.

  • Incoming Damage: 15%
  1. Headshot - Staggers attackers on interrupt.
    • Damage Increased: 100%
    • Stun on Interrupt: 2s
  2. Cloak and Dagger - Parries attacks.
    • Block: 1/2s
    • Stun on block: 2s

Smokescreen Cloak - Smoke fields you create are larger and apply boons to allies on creation.

  • 1 Stability 5s
  • Resistance 5s
  • Radius Increase: 120

Don't Stop - Swiftness and vigor you apply removes a condition. Non-damaging conditions have reduced durations while you have swiftness. Take less condition damage while you have vigor.

  • Conditions removed: 1
  • Incoming condition durations: -20%
  • Incoming condition damage: -10%

Feel free to give your input, changes etc..

Edited by Zacchary.6183
errors, changes
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Overall thoughts are that it's gonna be difficult to make this work with elite specs and not be broken, but that's more a reflection on daredevil being lazily made by the original dev team so there's a huge amount of overlap design wise. There's some good stuff in here and overall I like the ideas, I'm largely going to be pointing out the issues though so don't think I don't like it based on just that.

16 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Adept Minor 

Metabolic Techniques - Vigor and Swiftness you grant are enhanced.

  • Swiftness - Reduced projectile damage while moving.
    • Incoming projectile damage: -20%
  • Vigor - Heals every second.
    • Heal: 250 (.15)
    • Interval: 1s

Adept Majors

Sprint Training - Dodging consumes less endurance and has increased distance when you have swiftness. Gain swiftness after moving for a short period of time.

  • Distance Increased: 60
  • Endurance Cost: -10
  • Swiftness 3s
  • Interval: 3s

Duelist's Momentum - Deal increased damage for a short time after using a dodge or an evade skill. Evading attacks increases critical chance for a short time.

  • Moment of Opportunity 4s: Outgoing strike and condition damage +20%.
  • Moment of Exploitation 4s: Critical chance +20%.

Combat Medic - Using a healing skill grants boons to allies. Granting vigor cleanses conditions.

  • Regen 10s
  • Vigor 10s
  • Conditions cleansed: 2
  • Number of targets: 5
  • Radius: 360

So with 639 heal power (the amount you get from celestial), the minor trait would give 346 (rounding up) heal per second while you have vigor. Add that to the 208 heal per second from regen and you have 554 healing per second on celestial. I get that you're putting that against swiftness access which would limit interaction with speed runes and other traits requiring swiftness, but that could be a bit much for a passive heal that with the right build you'd have up basically 100% of the time (M7 alone would do that). 

Majors:

How would Sprint Training interact with daredevil dodges? I can see Unhindered Combatant being slightly ridiculous if it works with that, probably better to make this not affect those dodges at all and leave it a core only trait?

I like the idea of duellist's momentum but the numbers are likely to be waaay too high. We're talking about a minor trait that offers the same damage % increase as Executioner, plus bonus crit chance to boot. Also see how it would affect daredevil bound with D/P, you'd be supercharging it.

Combat Medic is going to add faaaar too much condi cleanse. Think of an acro/SA/deadeye build with rifle, M7, new Don't Stop and antitoxin runes, you'd get 4-5 condis cleansed per malice rotation plus 3 cleanses per evade every 10s and 4 cleanses per stealth application with rifle from Shadow's Embrace. 1 condi removed with vigour application at the max I think. 

16 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Master Minor

Instant Reaction - Increased evade duration while dodging.

  • Duration Increased: 1/4s

Master Majors

Flow of Combat - Evading attacks returns endurance. 

  • Endurance on Evade: 2 (No CD)

Tactical Evasion - Evasion skills that move directly towards or away from the target can now dodge in the direction of movement instead. Evading an attack grants boons. (10s CD)

  • 5 Might 8s
  • Fury 5s
  • Vigor 5s
  • This does not affect shadowsteps.

Blackguard's Protection - Dodging grants protection. Copy boons on you onto allies you pass through when dodging or using an evasion skill. (15s)

  • Protection 8s
  • Boons copied: 12

The minor is going to be problematic. Mirage had something similar and it was nerfed pretty handily, I'd rather not have something that I know is going to get nerfed within 6 months. Edit: Something else to consider is that the dodge animation currently takes a fraction longer than the evade, providing a brief window where the thief is animation locked and cannot evade or react to a well timed attack. Using Withdraw or Roll for Initiative to cut that animation lock and throw off the timing of people trying to time skills for the end of dodge rolls is high level play for this reason. Extending the evade without also extending the dodge animation would destroy this, making acro thieves essentially untouchable. 

Majors:

Flow of Combat is basically old Feline Grace with a severely nerfed effect. Might be fine as is but might not be, would have to play around with Sprint Training and the Instant Reaction on a daredevil build to say how strong it is. Edit: I just realised you said no internal cooldown. This would be obnoxiously strong and would get nerfed veeeeery fast, but it would be fun dancing through zergs before it does. 

I guess Tactical Evasion is intended to give more flexibility in movement when using Withdraw by removing the need to drop target? I can see this being an annoying trait when using Flanking Strike if I have to stand still to evade towards the enemy, so would have to play it and see. 

Blackguard's Protection is going to be 100% busted on that same acro/SA/deadeye build with M7 I mentioned earlier unless the boon copy is also on a 15s cooldown. 

16 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Grandmaster Minor

Endless Stamina - Vigor you grant is enhanced. Gain bonus concentration.

  • Effectiveness Increased: 50%
  • Concentration: +240

Grandmaster Majors

Parrying Offhand - Take reduced damage while wielding an offhand weapon. Cloak and Dagger and Headshot are enhanced.

  • Incoming Damage: 15%
  1. Headshot - Staggers attackers.
    • Damage Increased: 100%
    • Stun 2s
  2. Cloak and Dagger - Parries attacks.
    • Block: 1/2s
    • Stun on block: 2s

Smokescreen Cloak - Smoke fields you create are larger and apply boons to allies on creation.

  • 1 Stability 5s
  • Resistance 5s
  • Radius Increase: 120

Don't Stop - Swiftness and vigor you apply removes a condition. Non-damaging conditions have reduced durations while you have swiftness. Take less condition damage while you have vigor.

  • Conditions removed: 1
  • Incoming condition durations: -20%
  • Incoming condition damage: -10%

The minor trait is unchanged, so not much to comment on there. 

Majors:

Going to have to break down Parrying Offhand a bit, there's a lot packed in here. I love the idea of parrying with an offhand but this trait is overloaded. The 15% damage reduction would be enough on it's own, or the block on Cloak and Dagger, but both is probably too much. I'd personally stick with the active effects when a skill is used and remove the 15% as that leaves it as a skill & timing based thing which is better in general for the class. The stun is also too much: for x/P it's going to lead to an easy stunlock spam which is never good for competitive (esp on a M7 DE SA type build that can spam initiative), and for x/D I'm already wondering if the block is too much given the skill also stealths you, so having a stun on block is definitely over the top. Cool idea, but too much. 

Smokescreen cloak would be good for specter support, so I like that. It would remove all counterplay from interrupting a D/P thief as he leaps out of stealth though, so that is not so good. If the boons are only applied to allies and not to the thief placing the smoke field, that would be fine. 

I actually prefer the old version of Don't Stop, simply because the condi cleanse is already a thing (sword 2 with antitoxin runes and current Don't Stop would grant swiftness, cleansing immob/cripple/chill and then another condi, and the return would clenase 2 condis) and the duration to immob is primarily why I take the trait at all (looking at you, immob ranger). Like I said earlier, the cleanse is overshadowed by Combat Medic, so I would find it difficult to justify taking this new version against the other GM traits. 

Edited by Jugglemonkey.8741
Misnamed a trait, added bits
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50 minutes ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

How would Sprint Training interact with daredevil dodges? I can see Unhindered Combatant being slightly ridiculous if it works with that, probably better to make this not affect those dodges at all and leave it a core only trait?

It could just work on non-DrD dodges since you could consider them skills in their own right. However I didn't think an extra 60 units would matter much since it would be a 20% distance increase at best (360 for normal, 510 for dash). This decision was made with consideration to my Run-n-Gun build's playstyle (non-stealth power interrupt). The build is pure movement and is what helps me keep up with wvw zergs off-mount, as well as getting away. However, that is harder to accomplish with SB5's costs and I don't expect it to drop at any point. So an extra 60 units, even on dash would put a little counterweight to that and any build that uses dash as a means of travel-assist. In PvE, this would be useful for defense and in combat movement. Like if you were in the wrong spot of an incoming attack, that extra 60 units could save you.

As for the rest of adept, numbers can be tweaked. I just want to get the concepts out there? :P

1 hour ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Extending the evade without also extending the dodge animation would destroy this, making acro thieves essentially untouchable.

That's a good point and I will change it to reflect that.

1 hour ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

I just realised you said no internal cooldown. This would be obnoxiously strong and would get nerfed veeeeery fast, but it would be fun dancing through zergs before it does. 

You would think, but I doubt it. Its essentially Signet of Malice and anet has not touched that at all in spite of how powerful it is 1vX. With Instant Reaction, most likely.

1 hour ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

I guess Tactical Evasion is intended to give more flexibility in movement when using Withdraw by removing the need to drop target? I can see this being an annoying trait when using Flanking Strike if I have to stand still to evade towards the enemy, so would have to play it and see. 

I would figure it would work like that. But also somewhat work if you're moving towards the target anyways. Mainly, I wanted to soften animation lock by unlocking movement.

1 hour ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Blackguard's Protection is going to be 100% busted on that same acro/SA/deadeye build with M7 I mentioned earlier unless the boon copy is also on a 15s cooldown. 

The cooldown also applies to the boon copy. Otherwise it would have been clarified in the tooltips.

1 hour ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

The stun is also too much: for x/P it's going to lead to an easy stunlock spam which is never good for competitive (esp on a M7 DE SA type build that can spam initiative), and for x/D I'm already wondering if the block is too much given the skill also stealths you, so having a stun on block is definitely over the top. Cool idea, but too much. 

I believe I have forgotten to put on interrupt for x/p and will fix that. I wanted it to have a better effect when using it more tactically. And assuming it'll reflect the pve/pvp changes, the stun will be 1/4s for pvp. Though it wouldn't matter in pvp much since the skill is incredibly weak there anyway. As for x/d, landing a backstab is a pain in the kitten, even moreso if you only have a 1/2s "parry" window to get that 2s bonus. This will help in that regard, but also consider you still need to have acro to access this. It will probably help more with core in this respect since you can only pick two more from a set of damage/utility/elite lines.

1 hour ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Smokescreen cloak would be good for specter support, so I like that. It would remove all counterplay from interrupting a D/P thief as he leaps out of stealth though, so that is not so good. If the boons are only applied to allies and not to the thief placing the smoke field, that would be fine. 

I don't see this as a problem for the d/p situation since most people are not skilled enough to take that opportunity anyway and instead just try to make the thief whiff their stealth attack. And with the stealth trait changes, camping stealth is arguably a bad idea now making the tactic to force a whiff that much easier. Regardless, the trait can be split between game modes if the stability poses a problem. I mainly wanted to give thief something to provide a group at core level in PvE.

2 hours ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

Like I said earlier, the cleanse is overshadowed by Combat Medic, so I would find it difficult to justify taking this new version against the other GM traits.

Fair enough. I was trying to make grandmaster traits passive with some active components.

Do you have any ideas for traits you'd rather have than what I have posted, besides leaving Don't Stop alone? :P

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Zacchary you are a realy good person. I have been following your good suggestions and feedback for about ten years now.

Sadly devs couldn't care less about what we are discussing here.

I never saw a good idea brought to life by a patch.

Don't get me wrong, keep posting your suggestions if you feel to do so, just do not hold your hopes that something will change at all. 😀

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35 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Do you have any ideas for traits you'd rather have than what I have posted, besides leaving Don't Stop alone? 😛

It's harder to build something than it is to criticize something, so I really appreciate the work you've done here. I'll try to give some more constructive feedback xD

Not having swiftness on minor is going to hamstring me a bit as that's actually one of the reasons I take acro, if my build means I can't take daredevil or fireworks runes for whatever reason. If it were me I'd probably swap the position of Metabolic Techniques and Sprint training for that reason, so that way there is a choice between the heal and the cleanse but the move speed is guaranteed. 

I'm really gonna miss Swindler's Equilibrium also. I can see why it's not there as if S/D gets a block & stun on cloak and dagger the spec suddenly becomes way more of a brawler spec from that change alone, but I'd really consider putting the steal cooldown reduction on evade in there somewhere simply because it fuels so much for core S/D it's gonna be hard to replace. Dropping the power boost and making the trait affect all weapons could also be interesting. 

I'll have a think about other stuff haha

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