Quality of Life: Deadeye and Kneel

[Ban Daur.4831]

I have been delving into deadeye recently to find a fun power spec to play but i have noticed one annoying issue when you get hit by knockback/push or other cc mechanics even if they are small like in strikes or fractals they will rise you from kneel position and sometimes when zoomed out or focusing on the rotation I may not notice the change. This might be a learn to play issue mostly but I would hope that (if you get knocked/stunned you return to kneeling position instead of standing) if that was your stance whit the rifle. Would this change be beneficial or hinder repositioning after a stun too much? Has this been an issue for you playing deadeye or learned to play around it?

[Doggie.3184]

There's a lot of issues with Deadeye and one is that it shouldn't be so kneel dependant in the first place. I strongly believe Kneel should only effect range and all kneel attacks be baseline. You shouldn't have to kneel to do damage you should have to kneel to be more accurate and hit further targets cuz logic. I don't really care if they remove one of the #4 Skills, they can just return Ricochet (cuz two single target gun sets is god awful, P/P needs it's AoE back) and give us a reason to use P/P and Black Powder (to replace Sniper Cover) with Rifle.

Edited November 3, 2022 by Doggie.3184

[Tails.9372]

3 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

You shouldn't have to kneel to do damage you should have to kneel to be more accurate and hit further targets

Pretty much this, proper sniper gameplay is more about positioning and keeping your distance (which they clearly understand as shown by how they portray the e-spec during the story and in various NPC fights) but the short range of the rifle (even in kneel) prevents the whole thing from actually working in praxis for the player character. I'd gladly have them change things so that kneel doesn't give a damage advantage anymore if it would give us a propper range boost instead.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

Pretty much this, proper sniper gameplay is more about positioning and keeping your distance (which they clearly understand as shown by how they portray the e-spec during the story and in various NPC fights) but the short range of the rifle (even in kneel) prevents the whole thing from actually working in praxis for the player character. I'd gladly have them change things so that kneel doesn't give a damage advantage anymore if it would give us a propper range boost instead.

I 100% agree. It is a pain point.

One thing I would like to add is longbow for other classes have the same range without kneel. Where is their disadvantage? If anything those classes need to have some sort of disadvantage for having the same range if deadeye has one.

Edited November 3, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415

[HowlKamui.5120]

Yeah I'd appreciate a better visual indicator of If I am kneeling. 

[Kodama.6453]

12 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

but the short range of the rifle (even in kneel) prevents the whole thing from actually working in praxis for the player character

Since when is 1500 considered "short range"? What the kitten?

[Tails.9372]

1 minute ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Since when is 1500 considered "short range"?

context

[Kodama.6453]

4 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

context

Still doesn't make sense.

1500 is literally the highest player range you can have for any kind of ability.
Deadeye also comes with alot of tools to keep this distance, even with the kneeling mechanic, thanks to alot of CC and mobility options.

The entire reason why deadeye has a bulk of it's damage gated behind the kneel mechanic is exactly because Anet fears that the gap opening tools of the thief are too potent for this playstyle to be healthy, so you have to make yourself vulnerable by becoming immobile to be at your strongest.

[Tails.9372]

1 minute ago, Kodama.6453 said:

1500 is literally the highest player range you can have for any kind of ability.

No it's not, SB LB has an effective range of 1800 and the "highest player range you can have for any kind of ability" is currently 2k.

Also, if something is not enough to be fit for purpose then yes "1500 range" can be "too short" as the whole point of it is to position yourself outside of the brawl in a place that can cover a decent portion of the battlefield which other classes can't just reach in less than 3 sec. by hitting 1-2 movement abilities which is impossible to do with only 1500 range for multiple reasons.

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

No it's not, SB LB has an effective range of 1800 and the "highest player range you can have for any kind of ability" is currently 2k.

Also, if something is not enough to be fit for purpose then yes "1500 range" can be "too short" as the whole point of it is to position yourself outside of the brawl in a place that can cover a decent portion of the battlefield which other classes can't just reach in less than 3 sec. by hitting 1-2 movement abilities which is impossible to do with only 1500 range for multiple reasons.

Ok, technically true, but this is due to an coding oversight. The longbow skills still state that they are intended for 1500 range. You can extend that by shooting someone below your level.

And 1500 range is not too short... you are solely looking from the perspective of the deadeye, but you have to consider the perspective of opposing players as well.

If you are not reachable "by hitting 1-2 movement abilties" and then you have the thief disengage abilities ON TOP, it means that other players are simply not allowed to interact with you in any way. They are not allowed to reach you and have to accept that you are covering them with free damage during a teamfight?

Yeah, no, that's exactly the stuff they feared to happen with a sniper playstyle, especially one which has access to the tools of the thief. They have to ensure that people can actually do something against you, that they can take out the sniper who tries to shoot them in the back during a fight.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

On 11/4/2022 at 6:01 AM, Kodama.6453 said:

Still doesn't make sense.

1500 is literally the highest player range you can have for any kind of ability.
Deadeye also comes with alot of tools to keep this distance, even with the kneeling mechanic, thanks to alot of CC and mobility options.

The entire reason why deadeye has a bulk of it's damage gated behind the kneel mechanic is exactly because Anet fears that the gap opening tools of the thief are too potent for this playstyle to be healthy, so you have to make yourself vulnerable by becoming immobile to be at your strongest.

ranger longbow keeps flying past 1500, even higher elevations, the arc downwards increases the range...so i beg to differ

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

ranger longbow keeps flying past 1500, even higher elevations, the arc downwards increases the range...so i beg to differ

Yeah, acknowledged that in a later comment. But the skills still state that they are 1500 range as their intended range, so I would call this a coding oversight.

They should probably change that, tho.

[Tails.9372]

On 11/4/2022 at 12:30 PM, Kodama.6453 said:

They are not allowed to reach you and have to accept that you are covering them with free damage during a teamfight?

Exactly: "during a teamfight" meaning there are multiple other factors to consider here like one of your teammates flanking him and even if you decide to go after him and he stats running away then, while he might have temporarily removed you from the fight, the other team still needed to expand a player to do so. Also, projectile reflection still works and the further away the sniper is the easier it is to obstruct the path of his projectiles.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

On 11/2/2022 at 4:09 PM, Ban Daur.4831 said:

I have been delving into deadeye recently to find a fun power spec to play but i have noticed one annoying issue when you get hit by knockback/push or other cc mechanics even if they are small like in strikes or fractals they will rise you from kneel position and sometimes when zoomed out or focusing on the rotation I may not notice the change. This might be a learn to play issue mostly but I would hope that (if you get knocked/stunned you return to kneeling position instead of standing) if that was your stance whit the rifle. Would this change be beneficial or hinder repositioning after a stun too much? Has this been an issue for you playing deadeye or learned to play around it?

I like your idea. I wonder if a few other things could be added along side your idea to improve kneel. I really hope the balance team sees this as a opportunity to improve user experience. Quite often in other games skill clarity and user experience will be quoted in balance updates (especially in competitive ones). Anyhow here some new ideas I thought of.

1. Improve user experience for kneel by adding spacebar (jump) as a alternative setting to go from kneel stance to standing stance (to deactivate kneel only). This means that even if you are in kneel and panic you do not need to press a skill to get out of kneel. This would be a great QoL without changing any numbers at all.

2. Improve user experience and visual clarity around kneel by adding stronger visual and audio queues when one activates kneel position. Many other games do this when you switch modes or forms. Maybe skills 1-5 could change to a completely different color and a sound effect could play in the background? Again this would be a great QoL without changing any numbers at all.

Note: Idea (2) would help with what the OP mentioned (I underlined it).

Edited November 7, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415
clarity

[Chips.7968]

On 11/3/2022 at 11:04 PM, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

I 100% agree. It is a pain point.

One thing I would like to add is longbow for other classes have the same range without kneel. Where is their disadvantage? If anything those classes need to have some sort of disadvantage for having the same range if deadeye has one.

They don't have teleport. x3. Or a spamable gap opener. Or stealth on dodge.

Sometimes wonder if people realise what they HAVE got.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Chips.7968

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

20 minutes ago, Chips.7968 said:

They don't have teleport. x3. Or a spamable gap opener. Or stealth on dodge.

Sometimes wonder if people realise what they HAVE got.

I can see the logic in that. I think that most of the frustration may boil down to lack of clarity when changing stances and also the point the OP brought up. Personally I have never really have enjoyed rifle deadeye in any modes actually.

[Tails.9372]

1 hour ago, Chips.7968 said:

They don't have teleport. x3. Or a spamable gap opener.

Except they have advantages in other areas, "but mobility though" is not an excuse for everything.

1 hour ago, Chips.7968 said:

Or stealth on dodge.

That's actually more of a detriment for the playstyle the main gimmick of the weapon is going for, "stealth on reaching max malice while holding a rifle" would have been preferable.

[Chips.7968]

16 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

Except they have advantages in other areas, "but mobility though" is not an excuse for everything.

Yes, which is precisely why I pointed out people don't seem to realise what they *have* got. "They have advantages in other areas"... and thief doesn't have any advantages in "other areas"?

Well, this either all went over your head or *shrugs*. 

But in the context of the original poster, not sure I'd want to be stuck in kneel in a stun in a competitive environment. 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Chips.7968

[ASP.8093]

On 11/7/2022 at 2:58 AM, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

1. Improve user experience for kneel by adding spacebar (jump) as a alternative setting to go from kneel stance to standing stance (to deactivate kneel only). This means that even if you are in kneel and panic you do not need to press a skill to get out of kneel. This would be a great QoL without changing any numbers at all.

2. Improve user experience and visual clarity around kneel by adding stronger visual and audio queues when one activates kneel position. Many other games do this when you switch modes or forms. Maybe skills 1-5 could change to a completely different color and a sound effect could play in the background? Again this would be a great QoL without changing any numbers at all.

I like these ideas. Kneel just blocking jumps is pretty useless — the intent to leave the Kneeling position is pretty clear, and it would make it easier to do a bunch of PvE bosses or get out of what's already a very high-risk/low-reward position in SPvP/WvW.

For visual clarity, you could also try adding an additional animation to the skill bar itself (kinda like how various elite specs, revenant legends, &c. add background effects or other visual candy to the skill bar.)

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

14 hours ago, Chips.7968 said:

But in the context of the original poster, not sure I'd want to be stuck in kneel in a stun in a competitive environment. 

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. If perhaps more clarity was added around kneel then maybe that could mitigate the other issue that was talked about. The other issue being this fact.

On 11/2/2022 at 4:09 PM, Ban Daur.4831 said:

if they are small like in strikes or fractals they will rise you from kneel position and sometimes when zoomed out or focusing on the rotation I may not notice the change.

 

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

Well. They changed how kneel worked. In not sure if I care for it.

 

75% movement speed, and the init cost went to two. I got distracted so I didn't get to see the full changes. But Im guessing its not all that impressive (again) given how quickly thry just blasted through thief. And they reduced the range. So FML

 

Once again firebrand got a lot of love.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

[Doggie.3184]

Still a dumpster elite spec. No love whatsoever.

Thief basically only has two elite specs and this ain't one of them.

 

[Infusion.7149]

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497
Full deadeye specific changes are as follows:

• Kneel: increased initiative cost from 1 to 2. Players can now move while kneeling at 75% reduced speed.
• Skirmisher's shot: reduced range from 1500 to 1200
• Three Round Burst: Reduced range from 1500 to 1200
• Death's Judgement: Now pierces foes not targeted by Deadeye's Mark. Damage dealt to unmarked enemies is reduced. Reduced range from 1500 to 1200

I suspect in the PVE context you can still pylon kite.

 

[Nomad.4301]

Well.. we can RP walk now when kneeling so.. yay? This really isn't going to help unless swiftness/SS affects that speed, because you still aren't going to be able to reposition effectively without burning a dodge or un-kneeling while RP walking. Also the 300 range reduction and pointless initiative increase says a lot about how they view DE's "power budget".

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

11 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497
Full deadeye specific changes are as follows:

• Kneel: increased initiative cost from 1 to 2. Players can now move while kneeling at 75% reduced speed.
• Skirmisher's shot: reduced range from 1500 to 1200
• Three Round Burst: Reduced range from 1500 to 1200
• Death's Judgement: Now pierces foes not targeted by Deadeye's Mark. Damage dealt to unmarked enemies is reduced. Reduced range from 1500 to 1200

I suspect in the PVE context you can still pylon kite.

 

Oh... fantastic... a nerf. I knew to expect to be disappointed. But good friggin lord this is horrid.