Suggestions For Preventing A Quickness Warrior Balance Nightmare In The Future

[mandala.8507]

After theory crafting quickness warrior to death, playing it in all kinds of content, and engaging in discourse via various public channels with the community, I've come to realize that quickness warrior is very strong and the only things preventing it from being incredibly overpowered are that dps warrior classes (besides bladesworn) are rather weak in most encounters and that neither core warrior nor any of warrior's elite specs have access to meaningful group support (without a huge dps loss). If the next elite specialization for warrior ends up being a heal support (which I think is practically a must at this point; I would be massively underwhelmed if none of warrior's 4 elite specs had the ability to be a viable healer), that specialization will be obnoxiously strong, adaptable, and versatile.

Let me explain the problems that exist with the current state of quickness on warrior, then I'll go into why this will be an issue for the future if it isn't tackled early on in development for the next elite specialization:

First off, warrior has far too much access to quickness.

Martial Cadence in the tactics line gives 3 seconds of quickness every 10 seconds. (0.3/1)

Warhorn gives 2 seconds every 16 seconds with alacrity. (0.125/1)

Banner of Tactics gives 12 seconds every 24 seconds with alacrity and double standards. (0.5/1)

You can then run up to 2 more banners for 14 seconds every 24 seconds with alacrity and double standards in total. (0.5833/1)

And you can add Battle Standard for the least impactful addition of 7 seconds every 96 seconds with alacrity and double standards. (0.0729/1)

In total, that gives you 1.58125 seconds of quickness for every 1 second with no boon duration.

With 100% additional boon duration, you get a whopping 3.1625 seconds of quickness every 1 second.

In warrior's current state, this luckily isn't a massive issue. All viable warrior builds in group content must deal dps, and so running all these quickness sources at once is a no go. But despite this, you're still seeing this vast assortment of quickness sources becoming problematic in the speedrunning scene. Pretty much every 10-man speedclear record I've seen since EoD launch has utilized bladesworn stacking (which allows them to stack the quickness from Martial Cadence and thus not require any actual quickness support) and a lot of the recent low-man records have been shattered using quickness berserker. Even the spellbreaker build has seen some viability in speedruns.

Unfortunately, this strength in speedruns isn't translatable to regular group clears, and so warrior is sitting at a really low playrate across all builds (even bladesworn) while being what I would consider dominant in the speedrun meta.

Therefore, if warrior's lackluster popularity with the general playerbase were to be addressed and additional strength added to the dps builds to fix this, you'd see the speedrun meta become entirely consumed by warriors.

So, why is this?

The best way I can phrase it is that quickness on warrior lacks guardrails. Alternatively, you could say that there are no meaningful tradeoffs in order to provide quickness uptime on warrior. 

Bladesworns lose nothing for taking Martial Cadence, so they can stack quickness that way, and this helps mitigate the loss of damage from their very valuable utility skills if they choose to run banners and be the sole quickness provider.

Berserker and Spellbreaker won't take Martial Cadence, but because quickness uptime on banners with double standards is so plentiful, it isn't a tradeoff in any way to take double standards over the other traits of its same tier and the Discipline traitline is a staple of both condi and power dps warrior builds. Sometimes I just leave double standards selected when I play dps warrior because it's of very little value to actually swap off of it and risk forgetting to reselect it for a future quick warrior pull.

Even core warrior can keep 100% uptime on quickness with just 2 banners and no concentration gear while hitting over 20K dps.

Every single quickness warrior build is right on the cusp of being overpowered. And the only protections against this inevitability are warrior's void of group support outside of banners and its lackluster (compared to the high end of the meta) dps on most encounters (besides bladesworn).

When a heal support elite spec is added, these protections will melt away and that class will break the meta.

Additionally, if there is a viable dps build that comes along with this elite spec that offers more utility, that build will also break the meta.

So, here are my suggestions for addressing this problem before it hits the live servers and for halting the abuse of quick warrior in speedclears:

1. Lower the quickness value on Martial Cadence or remove it all together. This addition has become redundant after the massive buffs to banners, and so allowing it to continue to corrupt the state of the speedrun meta and thus prevent buffs to any warrior specs for fear of inundating that scene with warrior records is something that should be done sooner rather than later. I would honestly hotfix it from 3 seconds to 2 seconds of quickness tomorrow. The only people affected by this would be speedrunners and I think some of them might be grateful not to be chained to bladesworn anymore.

2. Add guardrails to banner warrior by lowering the quickness duration on double standards. I know, nerfing quick warrior seems like an blunder, but I promise this change wouldn't be that impactful to the health of the quickness builds and it would allow you to safely add power to the pure dps builds without breaking the game. My advice is changing it from 7 seconds per banner to 6 seconds per banner. The goal I had in mind when deciding upon that number was moving the quickness duration requirements on condi quick berserker from 140% boon duration to 160% boon duration (with 2 banners). 

I even went ahead and "benched" (did 1 golem pull each of) this change:

• The current meta condi quickness berserker build with full vipers and 140% boon duration I got 26.9k.
• The same build but with full ritualist's armor, a ritualist's backpiece (purple privilege), and a ritualist's amulet (putting me at 160.33% boon duration) I got 24.8k. 

This build would still be incredibly strong and interestingly very tanky (I had almost 27k hp), but it would allow you to safely add power back into warrior as a whole.

Trust me, if you buff any currently viable warrior dps build without making this change, quick warrior will be busted.

On top of this, I've done a lot of thinking about heal warrior and I see no way for a future heal warrior elite spec to be both balanced, mechanically engaging, and fun without nerfing these numbers on the banners. Even if you think I'm crazy to suggest this change for the current state of the game, I'm begging you not to release a heal elite spec without considering how easy it will be to give quickness on since you no longer have to worry about dmg output. Wahorn is unironically god-tier as a support weapon, warrior just doesn't have the means to support yet. When it does, the combination of the tactics traitline, warhorn, shouts, and banners will give warrior the most adaptable quickness heal support in the game imo.

Anyway, just thought I'd try to be helpful and give my advice for keeping the future balance panic to a minimum. Thanks for reading!

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Martial Cadence is in fact too weak considering its primary guardrail, and there are several other existing guardrails that you are overlooking.

Between Martial Cadence, the banners, and warhorn you are talking about several 1s cast time skills with aftercasts that inhibit personal DPS, and in the case of warhorn takes the slot of a DPS weapon. Those are two distinct guardrails that you are overlooking.

Martial Cadence itself requires the burst to hit for Soldier's Focus to activate the trait. This is the most important guardrail inhibiting this trait along with all the other Tactics traits build around the Marching Orders minor. There is another guardrail here in that since this is fueled by Bursts, it requires a resource to be expended to gain, which may or may not be available when needed unless another CD is used to gain it.

Another issue you are overlooking is that warrior, of all specs, is lacking in some very specific boons for the subgroup, protection and resolution, which may or may not come with a future espec, and if they do Anet will do what Anet does and create design space (nerf other especs) to make room for it.

You are also overlooking the fact that unlike specs like FB or Mech, all of these quickness sources must be used roughly on CD and cannot be used reactively for their other benefits which is a massive guardrail. This is why FB reigns supreme everywhere but PvP and why you see the landscape littered by the green menaces and not quickness BSWs.

[Leo G.4501]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Those are two distinct guardrails that you are overlooking.

Martial Cadence itself requires the burst to hit for Soldier's Focus to activate the trait. 

 

Aren't you one of those advocating to remove that limitation though?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

31 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

 

Aren't you one of those advocating to remove that limitation though?

Yes, but that does not mean there aren't other guardrails. I was pointing out the current guardrails, of which there are several, since the OP seemed to think there are none.

Even with the on hit requirement gone it still needs Adrenaline to fuel it and other skills with 1s cast times +after casts that can no longer be used reactively for their main purpose to upkeep quickness.

IF instead of what we got, Anet had placed quickness on shouts via VS, then I think there would be an issue. Because who would give a spec quickness in an AoE on a class of skill that is instant cast, has ammo, and low CD right? RIGHT? 

*Glares at Firebrand*

There are unhealthy ways to implement group quickness, there are a few in game at the moment, but warrior quickness is not one of them.

[mandala.8507]

7 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Martial Cadence is in fact too weak considering its primary guardrail, and there are several other existing guardrails that you are overlooking.

Between Martial Cadence, the banners, and warhorn you are talking about several 1s cast time skills with aftercasts that inhibit personal DPS, and in the case of warhorn takes the slot of a DPS weapon. Those are two distinct guardrails that you are overlooking.

So...

Banners have a 0.75 cast time now, making it 0.5 with quickness.

Warhorn 4 has a 0.5 cast time, so 1/3 seconds with quickness.

With full harrier gear, monk runes, superior sigil of concentration, and Roaring Reveille you have over 195% boon duration.

Therefore, on a future heal spec you could run just banner of tactics and warhorn and upkeep over 1.2 seconds of quickness for every second, which is massively overcapping.

Heal Firebrand only gives 1.15 seconds of quickness uptime every second with 200% boon duration (max additional boon duration), and yes these have no cast times, but you have to spam them constantly.

On top of this, since you aren't forced to take the Martial Cadence trait to provide quickness on a heal warrior, you can take vigorous shouts, which puts you at ~1400 healing power in full harrier (more than druid).

Pair this with a new weapon with defensive capabilities, warhorn 5, and then the ability to run banner of tactics and banner of defense in tandem and thus allow for flexible use of their stab, barrier, and aegis applications without dropping uptime, and you've got a pretty cracked healer.

Add whatever utility might come naturally with said hypothetic support elite spec for warrior and you've got one of the easiest and strongest healers in the game without question.

Martial Cadence is simultaneously too weak for regular players to justify taking, yet it's propping up a speedrun meta all on its own. That's why I think it should either be nerfed or reworked entirely. It's just unnecessary bulk at this point that could cause problems in the future.

My point with this post is to point out that yes, in the current state quickness on warrior seems not to be a problem, but if they plan to address the current state of the warrior profession as a whole any time in the future, it will become a problem. Warrior is unironically the quickness class and nothing else right now. Bladesworn barely is the exception to that, and only if you're very high skill.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

This kind of sounds like nerfing a class that is generally underperforming based on tech used by speedrunners, like what Anet did to curb high performing catalysts.

 

I'll comment more in depth on this later,  but its weird to justify nerfs based on the potential future existence of a class. Damage buffs and specializations can have their power targeted.

 

How prevalent is warrior stacking in the speedrunner community,  right now?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

So...

Banners have a 0.75 cast time now, making it 0.5 with quickness.

Warhorn 4 has a 0.5 cast time, so 1/3 seconds with quickness.

With full harrier gear, monk runes, superior sigil of concentration, and Roaring Reveille you have over 195% boon duration.

Therefore, on a future heal spec you could run just banner of tactics and warhorn and upkeep over 1.2 seconds of quickness for every second, which is massively overcapping.

Heal Firebrand only gives 1.15 seconds of quickness uptime every second with 200% boon duration (max additional boon duration), and yes these have no cast times, but you have to spam them constantly.

On top of this, since you aren't forced to take the Martial Cadence trait to provide quickness on a heal warrior, you can take vigorous shouts, which puts you at ~1400 healing power in full harrier (more than druid).

Pair this with a new weapon with defensive capabilities, warhorn 5, and then the ability to run banner of tactics and banner of defense in tandem and thus allow for flexible use of their stab, barrier, and aegis applications without dropping uptime, and you've got a pretty cracked healer.

Add whatever utility might come naturally with said hypothetic support elite spec for warrior and you've got one of the easiest and strongest healers in the game without question.

Martial Cadence is simultaneously too weak for regular players to justify taking, yet it's propping up a speedrun meta all on its own. That's why I think it should either be nerfed or reworked entirely. It's just unnecessary bulk at this point that could cause problems in the future.

My point with this post is to point out that yes, in the current state quickness on warrior seems not to be a problem, but if they plan to address the current state of the warrior profession as a whole any time in the future, it will become a problem. Warrior is unironically the quickness class and nothing else right now. Bladesworn barely is the exception to that, and only if you're very high skill.

I think you are counting your chickens before they hatch. We're at least 2 years from any new support espec, and we will be going through a new balance philosophy starting this month. Things like FB and Mech are going to be nerfed and others buffed up to their new lower standard.

I don't think Quickness warrior will become what you fear unless CMC REALLY screws up.

[eXruina.4956]

guardian can permanent uptime quickness quite effortlessley while providing protection, resolution and stability, from skills and traits actually useful for combat, heals, stunbreaks, more boons, etc.. 😑

 

some other classes can put out pretty good uptime as well with better ability and utility than warrior and they can do it while being effective in combat as well.

 

and you think warrior is going to be a problem? given it's current kit? banners? in all game modes? banners are terrible, they bring 0 combat utility.

 

in pve planting banners is a a dps loss compared to other classes that can do it on a productive and fluid rotation.

 

in competitive pvp and wvw, quickness duration is so gutted you cant permanent uptime quickness on warrior even when running 3 banners and 100% boon duration, also no utility, no stunbreak? no condi cleanse? 1:1 you're dead, and in a group, other classes can bring better. 😶

Edited November 3, 2022 by eXruina.4956

[Infusion.7149]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This kind of sounds like nerfing a class that is generally underperforming based on tech used by speedrunners, like what Anet did to curb high performing catalysts.

 

I'll comment more in depth on this later,  but its weird to justify nerfs based on the potential future existence of a class. Damage buffs and specializations can have their power targeted.

 

How prevalent is warrior stacking in the speedrunner community,  right now?

^ As Azure the Heartless posted, it seems like addressing a non-existent problem.

The only places you are going to be stacking bladesworns are probably Keep Construct and Vale Guardian since both have 35% power DPS bonuses. I've seen it also used on Gorseval but that isn't super strong in normal groups due to the stomping and phasing. Elsewhere it is unlikely , since Deimos no longer phases fast enough with a bladesworn stack to break the scripting. Conjured Amalgamate you need to move around a bit to avoid the swords and shields from merging and on Adina being able to range is a large benefit that is applicable to power soulbeast.

I would say instead of nerfing a non-existent problem to normalize warrior damage options to be stronger in real fights. Making 100 Blades no longer stationary, improving gap closers, etc. It takes a lot more skill to play condi berserker especially compared to a power variant with axes.

Finally, if your idea of overpowered is 20K melee DPS warrior putting out quickness, I think your gauge of broken-ness is out of whack.

EDIT: For context
VG : 6 x Bladesworn - https://www.speedrun.com/gw2/run/z0ln44ez
VG : 6x Bladesworn - https://www.speedrun.com/gw2/run/yd1do1qy
Gorseval : 6x Bladesworn - https://www.speedrun.com/gw2/run/z0l6689z
Adina :8x Bladesworn -  https://www.speedrun.com/gw2/run/zx8joxgm

Edited November 3, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[eXruina.4956]

i dunno about this warrior of the future, but the warrior of now. is pretty bad. 🤣

 

edit: deleted, gonna be chill, wintersday is coming, tis the season. ❄️😇

Edited November 4, 2022 by eXruina.4956

[Shadowpeixera.2918]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This kind of sounds like nerfing a class that is generally underperforming based on tech used by speedrunners, like what Anet did to curb high performing catalysts.

 

I'll comment more in depth on this later,  but its weird to justify nerfs based on the potential future existence of a class. Damage buffs and specializations can have their power targeted.

 

How prevalent is warrior stacking in the speedrunner community,  right now?

Also assumes that we will even get a defensive weapon, or a revamp that will make any defensive weapons worth. Isn't the offensive-support build Axe/Warhorn right now?

It's kinda weird to balance a class for a potential future that might never come, or might not concretize the way the OP thinks it will.

[Kalthea.4326]

Warrior needs to make plenty of tradeoffs with its kit already, and saying that we need to have more tradeoffs just to balance a future that isn't guaranteed is a bit silly. We're currently relegated to DPS, so having even some viability in end-game content with Quickness uptime is fine by me. I personally don't really care of the elite of the elite are running around and spamming quickness uptime on a high-dps spec, because I would honestly rather the skill floor be brought up to allow for more class space. That, and I think that Quickness and Alacrity should either be removed from the game or made baseline anyway, since they're far too powerful to not have up 100% of the time, which is what people do already, so why even bother having specs designed around them other than to delay the inevitable power creep that they provide? Just make them baseline and design things without having to worry about them.

 

"But that would remove what little role diversity we have" you say? I disagree, because the moment you're able to reach 100% uptime on quickness anyway, you're just going to start building damage, no matter which class you're playing. I would much rather see Warrior turn into a Might stack monster, and healers provide high uptime on Vigor and Protection. These would be great alternatives to Offensive and Defensive supports. Also make Regen powered up based on the highest Healing Power in your group, please and thanks!

 

Either way, I hear your concern, but when I look at the future you've shown as "breaking the meta", I can only giggle a bit because that's what Guardians have done for years at this point.

[Shadowpeixera.2918]

20 minutes ago, Kalthea.4326 said:

Warrior needs to make plenty of tradeoffs with its kit already, and saying that we need to have more tradeoffs just to balance a future that isn't guaranteed is a bit silly. We're currently relegated to DPS, so having even some viability in end-game content with Quickness uptime is fine by me. I personally don't really care of the elite of the elite are running around and spamming quickness uptime on a high-dps spec, because I would honestly rather the skill floor be brought up to allow for more class space. That, and I think that Quickness and Alacrity should either be removed from the game or made baseline anyway, since they're far too powerful to not have up 100% of the time, which is what people do already, so why even bother having specs designed around them other than to delay the inevitable power creep that they provide? Just make them baseline and design things without having to worry about them.

 

"But that would remove what little role diversity we have" you say? I disagree, because the moment you're able to reach 100% uptime on quickness anyway, you're just going to start building damage, no matter which class you're playing. I would much rather see Warrior turn into a Might stack monster, and healers provide high uptime on Vigor and Protection. These would be great alternatives to Offensive and Defensive supports. Also make Regen powered up based on the highest Healing Power in your group, please and thanks!

 

Either way, I hear your concern, but when I look at the future you've shown as "breaking the meta", I can only giggle a bit because that's what Guardians have done for years at this point.

Yeah, i'm on that camp too. GW2 "offensive support" specs are in general just flavours of DPS. Alacrity DPS is DPS, Quickness DPS is DPS. This game didn't think the support role very well.

I would like to go back to the early days where the game was not balanced around upkeeping every offensive boon, but then again, i don't think the devs foresaw that. I don't think they foresaw that people would rush endgame by skipping dungeon mobs, stacking 1 mesmer and 4 warriors with PS and keeping 25 mightstacks and Timewarp. Maybe it's too late.

[felix.2386]

yes "lets nerf it because if the next elite spec that's coming in maybe never or 6 years is a heal support, it's gonna be to strong in maybe 6 years or never, so better nerf it now"

 

LOL.

also it's so easy to balance PvE, if ever in 10 years that 4th heal support elite spec comes out and warrior quickness become so strong, just remove % duration on any of the quickness source. simple as that 

Edited November 4, 2022 by felix.2386

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

9 minutes ago, felix.2386 said:

yes "lets nerf it because if the next elite spec that's coming in maybe never or 6 years is a heal support, it's gonna be to strong in maybe 6 years or never, so better nerf it now"

 

LOL

 

I'm so goddamn fascinated by how people are going out of their way to either balance or suggest to balance warrior based on a scenario that has never happened or that they assume -will- happen in the future, while acknowledging the class underperforms, while allowing class arrangements several times more broken to exist for months on end without acknowledging them at all.

Literally what did we do. That sentiment doesn't happen to any other class, not deliberately. This is a running joke by this point but if a warrior blew you up in pvp or wvw/was so cracked at the game they outdpsed you I apologize on their behalf. Please have mercy. 

Quote

also it's so easy to balance PvE, if ever in 10 years that 4th heal support elite spec comes out and warrior quickness become so strong, just remove % duration on any of the quickness source. simple as that 

^ 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[mandala.8507]

I've read the comments. I also play warrior regularly and can assure you it's in a concerning spot for quickness because it's infinitely stronger while providing quickness than it is as a full dps across all builds besides bladesworn despite the quickness application not interacting with any of warrior's kit in the slightest and despite running banners being strictly a less enjoyable way to play all warrior builds. For any fight that doesn't require you to hard carry your teammates, quick warrior is the most powerful quickness build without question even now.

This isn't meant as a putdown, but my intent is to address the short-sighted design of the current iteration of quickness on warrior and hopefully make those who need to know aware of this fact. In the future, quickness on warrior will be a constant problem if it isn't tackled as the primary problem. I want to prevent the developers from releasing a change to warrior, having quick warrior pop up as a problem for whatever build that got buffed, nerfing that build specifically, then doing it again 5 times over instead of just addressing the root cause of those future issues, which will be warrior's access to quickness when paired with a build that isn't mediocre.

Again, I realize nerfing quickness looks like a mistake to those who are only looking 1 move into the future, but I'm fairly certain whoever is tasked with designing the next warrior elite spec for the fast approaching 4th expansion is not (or at least they shouldn't be).

To back up why you should give any credence to my opinion: I made the video of the vindicator infinite dodge less than an hour after logging in on patch day because even without watching the balance preview stream I knew they were going to underestimate where that build would land and I would be able to dodge infinitely if given access to 2 dodges before the patch even dropped. I had planned to do that that day without having seen any of the changes.

I'm also a Yuumi player in League of Legends and would like to prevent warrior from getting the Yuumi treatment where they just keep making the playstyle less and less fun to keep it in check. This is what they did to Vindicator after adding a second dodge and now every build besides the full dps one is in a horrible spot. Before that change, there was actually a very fun and impactful open world build using Vassals of the Empire. Now, you have to just sit there spamming dodges for 5 might each and by the time you've ramped up, any other build would have killed your target already.

They asked for feedback to be directed to the forums, so I'm doing that. Maybe I've put this in the wrong place for that or I should be tagging people, but that's what I'm doing here.

And I stand by my recommendation even after reading the comments. My mind was not changed and I was not convinced that I overlooked anything. "I know more than you" meme, or whatever. Just kidding...kinda.

[Kalthea.4326]

26 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

...In the future...

This is the issue that people are arguing against in this topic. What you're saying is that you want change NOW because of something that doesn't exist yet. A problem that hasn't happened, a spec that is only a thought, a trait line that we do not and can not know about. Number crunching is fine if you want to argue the here and now, but speculating for what might happen in the future doesn't do anything for balance right now.

 

You also must keep in mind the number of other classes that can gain immense power in the future because of what they have in their core kits. If you're worried about Quickness, you need to be worried just as much about Alacrity. And even then, if you're worried about either of those, you need to ask why you're worried about them. And no matter which one you look at, the answer will be "because they are far too powerful to have up 100% of the time" for whatever reason. DPS? Too much if a DPS increase to give up. CC? Comes out too quickly and consistently. Healing? High uptime on powerful healing utilities.

 

No matter how you look at those two boons, they are a problem for this game's balance in every aspect. I encourage you to talk about your ideas here though, and I can appreciate your worries for the future. However, they're unnecessary for the current game.

[mandala.8507]

14 minutes ago, Kalthea.4326 said:

This is the issue that people are arguing against in this topic. What you're saying is that you want change NOW because of something that doesn't exist yet. A problem that hasn't happened, a spec that is only a thought, a trait line that we do not and can not know about. Number crunching is fine if you want to argue the here and now, but speculating for what might happen in the future doesn't do anything for balance right now.

 

You also must keep in mind the number of other classes that can gain immense power in the future because of what they have in their core kits. If you're worried about Quickness, you need to be worried just as much about Alacrity. And even then, if you're worried about either of those, you need to ask why you're worried about them. And no matter which one you look at, the answer will be "because they are far too powerful to have up 100% of the time" for whatever reason. DPS? Too much if a DPS increase to give up. CC? Comes out too quickly and consistently. Healing? High uptime on powerful healing utilities.

 

No matter how you look at those two boons, they are a problem for this game's balance in every aspect. I encourage you to talk about your ideas here though, and I can appreciate your worries for the future. However, they're unnecessary for the current game.

Never did I say they need to make the banner changes immediately. They DO need to address banners before they attempt to give power anywhere else to warrior.

They SHOULD make a change to Martial Cadence the next chance they get. It's a no-brainer and speedrunners SHOULD NOT be immune to balance. That's silly.

They aren't nor could they ever get rid of quickness and alacrity. They don't have the manpower to pull it off and it would be a colossal waste of their time just to make the game less interactive and less fun, imo.

I'm not being speculative here, I'm outlining the current state of quickness on warrior and pointing out that it will thrive if given access to better utility and healing capabilities because of the CURRENT state of quickness on warrior. Quickness on warrior is broken, warrior is just a wimpy class that can't do anything but dps. When that changes, quickness on warrior being so strong will become a problem. It's not rocket science and it's not a pointless observation.

It's very much a present problem to solve for whoever is workshopping warrior changes and designing future warrior elite specs.

[Kalthea.4326]

1 minute ago, mandala.8507 said:

Never did I say they need to make the banner changes immediately. They DO need to address banners before they attempt to give power anywhere else to warrior.

They SHOULD make a change to Martial Cadence the next chance they get. It's a no-brainer and speedrunners SHOULD NOT be immune to balance. That's silly.

They aren't nor could they ever get rid of quickness and alacrity. They don't have the manpower to pull it off and it would be a colossal waste of their time just to make the game less interactive and less fun, imo.

I'm not being speculative here, I'm outlining the current state of quickness on warrior and pointing out that it will thrive if given access to better utility and healing capabilities because of the CURRENT state of quickness on warrior. Quickness on warrior is broken, warrior is just a wimpy class that can't do anything but dps. When that changes, quickness on warrior being so strong will become a problem. It's not rocket science and it's not a pointless observation.

It's very much a present problem to solve for whoever is workshopping warrior changes and designing future warrior elite specs.

Alright, let's break this down.

 

Whether or not you're saying to do it immediately doesn't matter, because you're asking for them to make changes due to something that has not happened, and may never happen.

 

Banners were literally just changed into this current state where they're actually usable, even though they're pretty niche considering what other classes can bring to the table alongside quickness.

 

Martial Cadence requires you to hit a target in order for it to function. If you miss the hit with your burst, you're out of luck. This is a caveat that every Burst Trait has. Nothing happens on activation, only on hit, and you need to have the adrenaline to perform it, and the stacks of Soldier's Focus for it to even grant quickness. This also competes with Vigorous Shouts, meaning you will now lack healing, and Phalanx Strength, which will reduce the might granted to allies (albeit that one isn't too big if a contender).

 

I couldn't really care less what Speedrunners do at end-game, because their entire goal as a Speed Runner is to clear content as fast as possible no matter what. Nerf Ele? On to Warrior. Nerf Warrior? On to Engie. Nerf Engie? Guardian, etc.etc. Speed Runners adapt to the game, no matter what state it's in, and balancing a game around the 0.1% just because they're really fast at clearing is how you end up gatekeeping content even further.

 

You say that removing them would reduce interaction, yet the only interaction they give is something that you'll have up 100% of the time in scenarios where it's wanted anyway. So if you're going to have it up all the time, having it as an ability makes it a side-effect at some point, since you're just doing the rotation to keep up the boon. I would argue it's more interactive to have Auras be more powerful and provide other benefits, instead of relegating it to a boon that most classes have access to and just hinders a devs ability to balance content, and removes choice because someone needs to have those boons for the content to be at base-difficulty since the devs have to assume 100% uptime.

 

So...you're trying to say that Warriors are weak, and can't act on the powerful quickness that they have. Which requires them to give up an off-hand or two-hand weapon, requires them to take Martial Cadence, requires them to run boon uptime, requires them to hit with their burst skills, and requires them to give up a utility. On top of that, they might in the future get more healing. And might get better utility. Which would let them be more powerful and competitive. I'm sorry, but this thought process seems backwards. You're complaining about current quickness with things that have yet to come, and you just stated as much here: "...outlining the current state of quickness on warrior and pointing out that it will thrive if given access to better utility and healing capabilities..." IF. Meaning they don't have that yet.

 

I'm sorry, I just don't understand. Warriors finally get access to a support-boon that let's them provide something to the team with a bit more struggle than the rest, and it's going to suddenly be a problem? Even if that were the case, you're already locking yourself to 2 specific trait lines, forcing yourself into that position, and you're left with the option of which Elite Spec to take or not. We're already relegated to almost entirely melee, have trouble surviving compared to other specs, and finally got a power DPS high enough on the charts for people to want to play it, and they took away the one thing we had that made people want to bring us into raids (stat banners), turned them into the worst utility skills in the game for a bit, and finally landed on something where we can provide support when built into it. I really don't see the problem here at current, especially when there are other specs able to keep up or overtake our support dps while providing boons themselves.

[Shadowpeixera.2918]

3 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Never did I say they need to make the banner changes immediately. They DO need to address banners before they attempt to give power anywhere else to warrior.

Uh...no, they don't?

These buffs didn't even make us top tier. It made us good/viable, but nowhere near the level of the S tier. Yes, bringing banners is boring yet, but to be fair the banners themselves are a bit more fun to use than they were before.

You seem to think that Warrior is in the danger of being overpowered. Let me quench those fears for you: Warrior won't ever be on the same level of a Firebrand. Ever. ( Unless Anet SPECIFICALLY targets Guardian towards that threshhold, but Guardian is just a really good designed class in a game where class design is lackluster in general. Of course they overperform. But i digress. )

It's really weird to see you suggesting that Warrior is in danger of powercreep when the entire game already sunk that ship years ago. I mean, i love LI builds, but even i think it's a bit too much that Warriors need a 5s baseline weaponswap feature added to them to make them perform at the same level of a 1111 Mechanist.

[Infusion.7149]

As other people highlighted "in the future" is a completely unrealistic way of balancing. If it isn't even remotely dominant now it does not need to be nerfed whatsoever.

Arenanet has the metrics for actual performance, and I sure hope they balance accordingly. Before banner reworks we saw usually 1 or 2 warriors per instanced group and before the condi exposed change with scourge dominance people actually asked for the "BS" role.

This suggestion is based off an unrealistic projection. The next spec if it were to ever even come about would need to provide more boons and buffs than condi quickness firebrand (easy firebrand rune for 40% Boon duration), quickness harbinger (same for this), quickness scrapper (has a power to concentration trait, not that popular unless you have a group of engis), quickness herald (consume skills on cooldown is awkward), quickness StM chrono (out of favor for the most part outside maybe VG/KC) does now. It would probably end up similar to quickness Catalyst but in a worse spot due to "pre-nerfing". That's not even including any potential thief (boon thief had quickness but no alac) or ranger quickness variants introduced in the future: warrior, revenant, guardian, engineer, elementalist, necro, mesmer all have quickness builds yet by far the most common is firebrand.

I would wait for the November rebalancing patch according to their "renewed philosophy" before even posting such nonsense suggestions. The very fact that you list warhorn (and 2 banners no less) means you are out of touch with what non-Bladesworn warriors need for DPS and this is coupled with your idea of 25K DPS being high for a quickness build.

The only foreseeable "support weapons" for warrior are staff which precludes use of warhorn in the potential heal set meaning unless staff has high DPS it would be terrible as a boon support unless it heals extremely high with the weapon, shortbow which tends towards condi DPS, pistol mainhand which is unlikely to be a support weapon, and scepter which is not a martial weapon.

It's funny you mention the double vindicator dodge problem when literally everyone made this observation, yet you take credit for it. Obviously, a class designed around one dodge was going to be broken when all the dodge related things were not halved. Yet after changes it sees very little play outside of PVP.

Also, you keep mentioning speedrunners but unlike my post you don't even have the "speedruns" linked. There's essentially 3 bosses total people ran bladesworns to make new records post-EoD.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Dadnir.5038]

I would argue that the true issue is a core profession having the ability to share quickness (this is also true for ranger and alacrity). Personally, I'd:

- Remove quickness from double standard, replacing it by a 20% CD reduction for banners

- Make martial cadence provide different boon based on the character's specialization (Core would grant 3 might stacks, Berserker would grant quickness, Spellbreaker would grant a defensive boon and Bladesworn is suitable for alacrity. A healing e-spec could have regen tied to martial cadence).

Also, a healing spec on warrior would likely rely on burst and utilities to provide the healing with coefficient similar to the shout's trait. I might be optimist, but honestly It does not make me worried about a warrior healer ending up being OP.

 

[Leo G.4501]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

As other people highlighted "in the future" is a completely unrealistic way of balancing. If it isn't even remotely dominant now it does not need to be nerfed whatsoever.
 

 

That's an interesting statement.

 

If you also said that about the actual balancing team, I wonder if you'd hold them to the same standard (i.e. just let the dev team shoot from the hip with their changes and not look at future plans when delivering re-balance patches).

[Infusion.7149]

13 minutes ago, Leo G.4501 said:

 

That's an interesting statement.

 

If you also said that about the actual balancing team, I wonder if you'd hold them to the same standard (i.e. just let the dev team shoot from the hip with their changes and not look at future plans when delivering re-balance patches).

I don't understand why you take issue with what I wrote. Care to elaborate?

The original poster is claiming warrior would be a dominant quickness support if it gained a healing weapon.

There's a difference between a whole new elite spec and expansion (which would entail another large round of balance patches rather than hotfixes) compared to say a change to banners or spirits.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

54 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I would argue that the true issue is a core profession having the ability to share quickness (this is also true for ranger and alacrity). Personally, I'd:

- Remove quickness from double standard, replacing it by a 20% CD reduction for banners

- Make martial cadence provide different boon based on the character's specialization (Core would grant 3 might stacks, Berserker would grant quickness, Spellbreaker would grant a defensive boon and Bladesworn is suitable for alacrity. A healing e-spec could have regen tied to martial cadence).

Also, a healing spec on warrior would likely rely on burst and utilities to provide the healing with coefficient similar to the shout's trait. I might be optimist, but honestly It does not make me worried about a warrior healer ending up being OP.

 

Soldier's Focus already gives 3 stacks of might, so Core would have to give something else. Spellbreaker can already be easily reworked to grant defensive boons on Full Counter, just add resolution and make it an AoE application.

BSW's Overload Cartridges could handle Alacrity instead of being a clunky damage boost.

Lush Forest could have instead granted alacrity when using an explosion skill.

So, to me breaking Martial Cadence up by espec is less of an answer than just updating the especs for the roles.