[Suggestion] Let's do something about Guild wars 2’s over-reliance on collections

[kharmin.7683]

It's a good thing that items "locked" behind a collection really aren't needed to complete content.

[baseendje.8452]

4 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

About your Intro
If you have a good idea, just say it. If it is really good, you do not need to rely on an artificial reputation push. If you have to rely on this extra-procedure, you show me that you do not trust your own idea.

About simple/easy/quick alternatives to collections
I take it from one of your answers, that you are familiar with group content. When there is an easy work-around, it is almost impossible to make people do things the intended way. For example Old Tom in the Uncategorized Fractal, which is currently done by out-healing the poison and ignoring the mechanics. Thaumanova Reactor, Heat Room, Cooling Rods. I can go on a lot more, but I'm sure you get my point. There is no reason to do it the boring/oldfashioned way, when there is a cheap/quick alternative.

We would be back to players grinding certain maps/events for gold-farming only. So they can just purchase every single collection item they need. And as this will be the most-efficient way, the guides will obviously tell new players to screw the collections straight and just farm gold.

"But those who enjoy collections, can do them anyway. I only want an alternative for people who do not like collections!"
You know it does not work that way. The only option to keep the content active is to make the pay-wall extremely high. And when we talk about this, we get automatically to the PayToWin discussion. 

I do not want GW2 to change into that direction.

Isn’t the whole idea of a game that it is fun? If people are speed running or breaking mechanics through loopholes in the game and having fun doing that isn’t that up to them?

If everyone chooses to go farm gold instead of playing the content, then that would be a pretty clear indication that no one likes playing that content. I wouldn’t be making this suggestion if obtaining these things would entail playing through a rich and entertaining story. As I wrote, having a gold equivalent alternative is a ‘quickfix’, I can imagine much better options out there. Arenanet released the new “Free” legendary amulet last year, a super good alternative for players who would like to get a legendary amulet but don’t like pvp. Legendary armor you can get in 3 different ways. I think it would be great if something similar would happen for people who are not entertained by collections.

2 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

It's a good thing that items "locked" behind a collection really aren't needed to complete content.

The idea alone sends shivers down my spine. =')

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by baseendje.8452

[Gibson.4036]

15 hours ago, baseendje.8452 said:

 

Thanks Gibson,

 

Though I understand the miscommunication, my point is not about grind or time consumption. I must have played thousends and thousends of fractals and still enjoy them, I also played many meta events (especially HoTs), strike missions and raids over and over. The difference between that content and completing collections for me is that one is enganging and entertaining (even if you repeat) where the other is at least for me non-immersive and boring.

 

I came to reallize that around the release of PoF, Anet started to lock away a lot of things behind collections rather then unlocking them trough story (such as most PoF mounts) or by collecting (grinding) a lot of gold and materials from different places. Most people I talked to in game about this feel quite similar so I was looking to start a discussion about it on the forums here. 😃

 

So do I understand correctly that you would like collections exactly as they are? What would you think about the option of having alternative means in game to unlock certain things. Say for simplicity: collecting 3k gold in materials to unlock the skyscale?

Skyscale, griffon, Aurora, vision, Prismatic Regalia, and even princess took me into corners of the game I hadn’t encountered even though I’ve played for years, and got me to do content I’d never engaged with.

The parts I liked least involved accumulating a bunch of currency, like rose quartz, or the stacks of LW4 (pre-return), or druid runestones.

Items that just cost gold, mean doing my daily log in rotation with my alts, metas I’ve already done a bunch, and relying on income from PvP (which I enjoy, but discovered I enjoyed because Ascension lead me there). I don’t do fractals/raids/strikes.

So, yes. There are some parts of some collections I don’t like, but on the whole they’ve added enjoyment to the game for me that more “buy with x currency” would not.

[Gibson.4036]

Forum bug double post

Edited November 5, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[eXistence.3876]

I actually enjoy gw2 collections. They have done a really good job getting creative in this area. Some are stale, but most are fine. Your argument that collections don't respect player time, I think, is backwards. In my opinion collections actually respect player time by allowing players to chunk out their time for one specific item. That way gradual progress can be made while not having to commit fully. Leaving room for stepping aside as you get one piece of the collection and enjoy another aspect of the game (pvp, wvw...). I would only suggest that it becomes less of a grind fest and they come up with ways of keeping it fresh, unique, and enjoyable. Which is a hard task.

[Khisanth.2948]

The point of collections was to have a way to add "content" with low effort. Your solution is that they should put in more effort. I have nothing against that solution but what are the chances of it happening considering the original motivation? IMO slim to none. The especially bad collections happen to lean too heavily on that crutch.

10 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

And as this will be the most-efficient way, the guides will obviously tell new players to screw the collections straight and just farm gold.

This is a great summary of the gen1 precursor collections. 🤣

[ekkio.4578]

I'm on the fence concerning collections - while I feel like I'm constantly 'missing' the latest and coolest, for the amount of time I actually put in this game. I'm very casual, I typically only put a few hours per week, usually no more than an hour per session, so I barely do more than the story-driven campaigns/LS episodes.

 

Most of the time I'm just running around in seasonal stuff or hopping the world boss train here and there. Last summer I had a little more time, I actually set my goal on getting the skyscale mount and it nearly drove me nuts (caveat: I tried to gather mats as much as possible rather than opting for gold farming to buy them instead). That's right, anything beyond the basics, ie the optional/advanced content, that I normally don't delve into by lack of time to put into it (it's optional anyway, right?) feels like an actual accomplishment - yes, 3 years after it was added to the game, who cares.

 

Just be to be clear, I'm not complaining - this optional content was there for me when I was ready for more, I only completed one thing out of dozens out there, and I'm totally fine with never getting to the end of the game.

 

I started working towards a gen 2 legendary weapon, I'm on the 2nd precursor and looking at the gifts I will need to make, I'm positively certain I won't be done with this for at least a year. I'm serious. And I'm fine with it.

[Bladestrom.6425]

"but please stop gate-keeping desirable in game goals with them,"

 

Collections are long term objectives.  Long term objectives are entirely optional, but most importantly some are desirable, which we want, otherwise what's the point of long term objectives?

[Mungo Zen.9364]

On 11/5/2022 at 5:36 AM, baseendje.8452 said:

If everyone chooses to go farm gold instead of playing the content, then that would be a pretty clear indication that no one likes playing that content.

You may be interested in looking up information on 'Player Time and Efficiency of Fun in Gaming Development'.  There have been multiple sources that have studied and presented information that players will always gravitate towards the easiest path to playing a game.  The easiest path is typically the most time efficient, unless the costs are balanced accordingly.

So while you may want an alternate path, the investment from Anet to create this alternate path that has equal player time/energy/cost would either A - require more of their developer time or B - be incredibly costly for the player.

Let's say Skyscale takes about 15 hours to complete over 3 days.  Would 250$ US converted to Gems converted to Gold to buy Mats off the TP be a fair price to pay for the Skyscale?  Thats barely 16 bucks an hour for 15 hours.  Does that valuation seem fair, too high or too low?

I don't even think 250$ for Skyscale is a good starting point, since you also have to include the purchase of all the associated content (PoF, HoT  and Living World) as these collections use all those zones and/or currencies.  So up that another 100$ to 350$ and we are starting to get to a better number.  The number has to be high enough that if I see someone on a Skyscale I want to applaud them for doing the collections or laugh at them for being lazy, not actually playing the game and buying their way into a mount that isn't required.

So OP, would you be happy to pay 250$ to 350$ for the Skyscale as an alternative to doing these collections?

Edited November 6, 2022 by Mungo Zen.9364

[baseendje.8452]

8 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

Let's say Skyscale takes about 15 hours to complete over 3 days.  Would 250$ US converted to Gems converted to Gold to buy Mats off the TP be a fair price to pay for the Skyscale?  Thats barely 16 bucks an hour for 15 hours.  Does that valuation seem fair, too high or too low?

8 hours ago, Mungo Zen.9364 said:

So OP, would you be happy to pay 250$ to 350$ for the Skyscale as an alternative to doing these collections?

Would I spend $350 in gold equivalent on a skyscale? So at current rates that would be: $350/0.0125 = 28000 Gems, makes for 28000/0.1975 = 5530 Gold.

At that price I wouldn't even hesitate. Even if it would be double the Gold I would still go for that option. Why would I spend 15 hours "playing"  trough content I hate if I can just safe up the gold from playing the content I like?

Edited November 7, 2022 by baseendje.8452

[Sobx.1758]

On 11/4/2022 at 8:41 PM, baseendje.8452 said:

I think there could be many ways to change these collection blockades for the better. A quick and easy fix for existing collection barriers could be give players the alternative to buy their way out of it. Even if it is very expensive, players could opt to play the content they enjoy to collect the gold or other items.

I "like" how it went from complaint about player's account progression through playing the content (because collections are just navigating you through the content, even if sometimes you need to search for something because it's not completely obvious) directly into "just let me buy it". If buying progression is all you want here (even without going deeper into what you consider "progression" here), I don't even understand what's the actual point of your complaint. Or even playing the game in the first place.

On 11/4/2022 at 8:41 PM, baseendje.8452 said:

I feel that it was a lot more fun obtaining the mounts that were first obtained trough playing the personal story.

I don't think it was fun at all, I think it was just instantly handed out to me.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[baseendje.8452]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I "like" how it went from complaint about player's account progression through playing the content (because collections are just navigating you through the content, even if sometimes you need to search for something because it's not completely obvious) directly into "just let me buy it". If buying progression is all you want here, I don't even understand what's the actual point of your complaint. Or even playing the game in the first place.

I don't think it was fun at all, I think it was just instantly handed out to me.

As mentioned *buying* would be the quickfix as the suggestion to put write an actually interesting storyline, has the counter argument that Anet put those collections in because they don't have the time to write said content, and thus collections are there to " keep you occupied"  while they write the next episode.

From reading your comments I understand that there are plenty of you out there, that really like doing them and I respect that. But there is an other group of people out there to whom it feels like the devs are just sending you around the map again and again and again to simply waste your time. As Sigmoid pointed out, there is a guy that describes the feeling quite elequintly:

On 11/4/2022 at 10:06 PM, Sigmoid.7082 said:

May be worth giving this thread a read. This thread somehow feels....reminiscent, albeit not as direct nor abrasive in wording. 

I've also seen a couple of comments saying that it is ok, because mounts are optional. Sure you don't have to get the mounts, as playing any other element of the game is optional. But honestly, the cool mounts in GW2 is one of it's key selling points and I really find them different from say optional skins. Mounts unlock unique gameplay and experiences different from just getting a good item or a skin. Sure it also annoys me that pretty much every gizmo is locked behind collections, but those I do find optional. Half of the legendary accessories behind collections, super annoying and I would love to see alternatives, but I have to agree they are optional.

I am pretty sure that if one day Anet decided to start rewarding coolest new features behind 6 hours worth of pvp matches people would be pretty annoyed. Then they do it again, then the next one they reward it for playing multiple days of pvp, and then some more. People would come here and write on this forum that pvp is not really for everyone and would be asking for an alternative.

So no, I am not asking to just hand over those mounts without any effort involved. I am not even unwilling to complete a few collectionis for them. However, if it goes from first 2 or 3 hours of completing collections, then to 6 hours for the next then to multiple days worth of collections, it just becomes a bit too much to ask. So yeah Arenanet, please make it super high effort or super expensive, but please consider offering an alternative, because it is a " bit" much for people who are not into that.

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I "like" how it went from complaint about player's account progression through playing the content (because collections are just navigating you through the content ....

Are you one of those parents that lets their kid play on the tablet after they do their homework, but then let them only play MathLand. "Well you wanted to play on the tablet, is this not good enough for you?"

Edited November 7, 2022 by baseendje.8452

[Rauderi.8706]

Collections are . . okay. They're just used poorly. Their UX is pretty awful. 

Plenty of achievements are, quite frankly, also awful. Small-chance RNG for stuff that can't be bought or sold, awful. Visiting and revisiting obnoxious jumping puzzles when they are still poor on quality of life, awful. Achievements rooted in spending gobs of money or materials specifically as a material sink, awful. Nesting collections in collections in collections until it's impossible to know where a player is in the process, awful. Setting out 40-item Hide And Seek collections with no way to track what's been found, awful. 

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, baseendje.8452 said:

As mentioned *buying* would be the quickfix as the suggestion to put write an actually interesting storyline, has the counter argument that Anet put those collections in because they don't have the time to write said content, and thus collections are there to " keep you occupied"  while they write the next episode.

It's not a "quickfix" (or any fix at all), it's skipping the gameplay. The collections are simplified versions of chain quests, apparently you're fine with fetch quests as long as they have a page of text to read between each of them but if there isn't, it's just there to keep you occupied? (...and there was something to read during the skyscale acquisition, wasn't there?)

1 hour ago, baseendje.8452 said:

I've also seen a couple of comments saying that it is ok, because mounts are optional. Sure you don't have to get the mounts, as playing any other element of the game is optional. But honestly, the cool mounts in GW2 is one of it's key selling points and I really find them different from say optional skins. Mounts unlock unique gameplay and experiences different from just getting a good item or a skin. Sure it also annoys me that pretty much every gizmo is locked behind collections, but those I do find optional. Half of the legendary accessories behind collections, super annoying and I would love to see alternatives, but I have to agree they are optional.

Base mounts are needed if only to get through the story, the rest are not. Play more of the game's content if you want more of the rewards or limit yourself to playing whatever and have less rewards. Seems reasonable to me.

"but I want to fly!" -ok, then get through the "chain quest" -which collections pretty much are- and get the reward you want. "let me buy it" isn't fixing anything here and isn't a reasonable approach to what you claim is "progressing an account".

1 hour ago, baseendje.8452 said:

So no, I am not asking to just hand over those mounts without any effort involved. I am not even unwilling to complete a few collectionis for them. However, if it goes from first 2 or 3 hours of completing collections, then to 6 hours for the next then to multiple days worth of collections, it just becomes a bit too much to ask. So yeah Arenanet, please make it super high effort or super expensive, but please consider offering an alternative, because it is a " bit" much for people who are not into that.

Wait, what? So you don't want them handed over (didn't say you do, just said that's what the base mounts are -although then there was your "let me swipe the card instead" so...), you are "not even unwilling to complete a few collections for [the reward]", but then.... you want to opt out of it anyways and still get the reward? It's like you're focusing to sound one way for a moment, but then can't help saying what you really mean and go back to "just let me buy it anyways". Or am I somehow misunderstanding what you've just said above?

1 hour ago, baseendje.8452 said:

Are you one of those parents that lets their kid play on the tablet after they do their homework, but then let them only play MathLand. "Well you wanted to play on the tablet, is this not good enough for you?"

No. And as much as I don't see how this question was in any way relevant or fitting to what you're quoting, rest assured I'm also not one of those parents that throw a wallet at their child so they can ""progress their account"". Duh, if they can progress by spending, they're not playing it in the first place.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Gibson.4036]

42 minutes ago, Rauderi.8706 said:

Collections are . . okay. They're just used poorly. Their UX is pretty awful. 

Plenty of achievements are, quite frankly, also awful. Small-chance RNG for stuff that can't be bought or sold, awful. Visiting and revisiting obnoxious jumping puzzles when they are still poor on quality of life, awful. Achievements rooted in spending gobs of money or materials specifically as a material sink, awful. Nesting collections in collections in collections until it's impossible to know where a player is in the process, awful. Setting out 40-item Hide And Seek collections with no way to track what's been found, awful. 

I can definitely agree that there are problems with many collections that could have been better designed.

In addition to some of your points, I really dislike collections that hinge entirely on one or two difficult things, but the rest of the collection is filled with trivial things to acquire. You blow through almost the entire collection, then discover the entire thing could be reduced to the one challenging, grindy, or expensive thing needed to complete it.

[baseendje.8452]

Please note I've added an additional segment to my original post in response to the feedback I've gotten thusfar.

On 11/4/2022 at 8:41 PM, baseendje.8452 said:

[Update] after reading some of your feedback

So I’ve learned that, next to the people who are also discontent about these collections, there are way more of you that like collections then I expected. This came as a bit of a surprise because I could not find so many people in game that share that same passion. Never the less, I think it is great there are so many collections in GW2 considering many if you enjoy them, and I am not here to take that away from you.

I think it would be great if we can try to prevent letting this thread devolve into a polarized back and forth in the form: “We hate collections and they should be stripped from the game” and “Collections are the best thing in the game, if you want your mount just suck it up or go play Tetris”.

Arenanet is well aware that not all content is for everyone, for instance: people who don’t like the Battle for the Jade sea meta event can buy the Turtle Egg required for the Siege turtle from a vendor. I am not saying Arenanet should do exactly the same for the “go fetch 50 objects” collections. Instead, I would like to invite you to think about and discuss possibilities in the game that would make these collections more bearable for people who dislike them deeply, without spoiling or degrading the fun for people who are very much into them.

If you’d like to express that you either dislike collections or that you love them and absolutely don’t want anything chanced. Please consider doing that by giving a blue heart to a previous poster that best reflects your opinion, just so we can avoid this becomes a lengthy thread repeating the same opinions over and over again.

[Rauderi.8706]

The main thing I feel is lacking from achievement/collection design is a simple question devs should be asking? 

"How much time/effort/resources should players invest before succeeding or acquiring the reward?"  

And no, making you wait for time gates doesn't count. I mean active play time. How many hours should I be spending in Bloodstone Fen zapping things with a glider before completing a piece of a single collection that is a piece of another collection?  

The real answer: [over an hour and still no success] ain't it. It's abuse, and this deliberate padding of playtime is no longer necessary when there are a host of legendaries and 10 years worth of content for players to finish. 

[Gibson.4036]

14 hours ago, Rauderi.8706 said:

The main thing I feel is lacking from achievement/collection design is a simple question devs should be asking? 

"How much time/effort/resources should players invest before succeeding or acquiring the reward?"  

And no, making you wait for time gates doesn't count. I mean active play time. How many hours should I be spending in Bloodstone Fen zapping things with a glider before completing a piece of a single collection that is a piece of another collection?  

The real answer: [over an hour and still no success] ain't it. It's abuse, and this deliberate padding of playtime is no longer necessary when there are a host of legendaries and 10 years worth of content for players to finish. 

Agreed. So far I’ve enjoyed most of Aurora, Vision, and Skyscale collections. I like when collections take me to places and foes I never encountered before. It’s when I hit a required item that forces me to pull over the whole collection and just endlessly grind out one thing that collections lose their fun.

DM heart grind, Rose quartz, and LW4 currency grind (now fixed with Return achievements) were the low points of those three.

I don’t mind reasonable time gates like the skyscale ones. As someone who doesn’t have hours a day to plow through an entire collection in one sitting, I don’t mind how short timegates balance out content and encourage players to other things while pursuing long term goals.

[Kozumi.5816]

On 11/4/2022 at 3:50 PM, Gibson.4036 said:

Players expect MMOs to occupy them for hours a week over years of time.

There is no way to produce enough content to keep them busy.

EQ and FFXI(11, not 14) accomplished this fine.

The issue is GW2 has very little difficult grinds and even less rewarding grinds.

On 11/4/2022 at 10:22 PM, Linken.6345 said:

Yea there is also that option to not look at a guide like the one writing said guide had to do.

Easter egg hunts aren't fun.

On 11/4/2022 at 8:14 PM, Drakz.7051 said:

Tbh my biggest issues are that almost everything you do are gold sinks. My favourite parts of collections usually come from map exploration or doing the content that isn't spammed for gold.

Agreed. We need more account bound rewards or requirements for good rewards that aren't just "make/spend gold".

Edited November 8, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[Danikat.8537]

I haven't read all the replies, but besides adding my name to the list of those who like collections, enjoy completing them and would be very disappointed to see them gone I just want to make one point:

Collections and their rewards are not something that could happen 'by accident'. It's quite likely Anet put a lot of time and effort into designing them and the effort required to complete them is intentional. Therefore if they were to be replaced it would almost certainly be by something that requires a comparable amount of time and effort and likely similar activities (for example they're not going to start making WvW-exclusive items available from PvE). All it would really change is how the requirements are presented to us.

Sometimes there have been problems with some collections which I think were unintended, like when some of them specifically required the capture events at the Temples in Orr and those were very hard to participate in because they only triggered if the defend event failed and it's possible for one player to complete the defend events. But when that's happened those specific requirements were changed, not the entire collection, and new collections continued to be added after that.

There's also some things in the game which pre-date the introduction of collections but are functionally the same, like making gen 1 legendary weapons (the actual weapon, not the precursor). That's probably the kind of thing we'd get instead, with a standard achievement tracking total completion rather than showing all the steps.

[casualkenny.9817]

One example of a good balance would be the mad memories collection (forgot the exact name) that requires 1ea of armour parts. One of each part was given in a separate sub-achv (JP, ascent, pumpkins, race, somethingsomething), yet there was a workaround where you could buy the recipe of a part that you were missing, and craft it. I.e. you weren't hopelessly stuck just because you were hopelessly hopeless at the JP. Alternative routes to the same goal.

 

Likewise, for griffon, there was the option to craft the ...sausage thingies(?) To skip the parts that you didn't or couldn't do.

 

[Linken.6345]

9 minutes ago, casualkenny.9817 said:

One example of a good balance would be the mad memories collection (forgot the exact name) that requires 1ea of armour parts. One of each part was given in a separate sub-achv (JP, ascent, pumpkins, race, somethingsomething), yet there was a workaround where you could buy the recipe of a part that you were missing, and craft it. I.e. you weren't hopelessly stuck just because you were hopelessly hopeless at the JP. Alternative routes to the same goal.

 

Likewise, for griffon, there was the option to craft the ...sausage thingies(?) To skip the parts that you didn't or couldn't do.

 

Not the griffon but the skyscale you could craft treats to skip the jump puzzles

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, Linken.6345 said:

Not the griffon but the skyscale you could craft treats to skip the jump puzzles

Or buy them from the TP from players who crafted them.

[casualkenny.9817]

4 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Not the griffon but the skyscale you could craft treats to skip the jump puzzles

Hah oops