Scourge Complaints Gone Too Far

[Aridon.8362]

So I've been playing ranked consistently since the season has started. I've come to the conclusion in PvP that everyone has it all somewhat right about Scourges. Basically what I am trying to say is that I believe Scourges aren't truly the things that are broken. I've gone through so many matches with scourges, in fact I would say about 70-80% of my matches have at least scourge in either team, but something I notice is that of those that do have Scourges, only about 10-15% of those matches are actually carried by Scourges.

What truly causes losses is the players themselves, more than often it's not thieves that cause losses in my matches, it's actually people that play Mesmer that cause my losses. I play support firebrand, and often when I lose it's usually because of two things:

• The team wins the initial 4v4 at mid and then breaks off to defend home or go far; to which case the people that go far end up going against the 2v3 or a 1v3, and naturally get rekt by the incoming bomb. The enemy then goes to mid and decaps if left alone, since naturally I am always following someone since I cannot bunk a high burst damage build alone for too long. The enemy keeps the points under rotation and even though my team can kill the enemy, the enemy out-speeds our ability to rotate and ends up winning. This kind of loss seems prevalent among matches that include mesmer and warrior players in my team. This kind of loss is accompanied by one player trying to distract the enemy by attempting to go far for the rest of the match instead of helping the team win a 4v4 at mid and instead leaving the team to 3v4 at mid.
• The enemy team out-damages my team, to the point where at least two teamates die in less than a 4 second interval since the commencement of an engagement, regardless of how much healing and support I supply to them. This kind of loss is rare, often so rare that I can actually count the number of times this happens. Often times this kind of loss can be overcome by out-rotating the enemy but the odds, of this happening is 50-50. The comp this usually happens with that I go up against is the double Scourge, and support Firebrand with Engi and end druid comp.

So about Scourges, as a Firebrand I've realized that the best way to defeat Scourges, even while fighting a double Scourge comp, is to avoid the red circles. I found out over time that if you accompany at least 2 teamates while going up against Scourges, the best thing to do is fight from a distance and avoid the red circles. Using the mantra condi clear and the meditation helps but you have to time them correctly. The biggest weakness with Scourges in PvP in comparison to WvW is that skills require a more consistent use of targeting skills, so staying mobile while simultaneously away from the scourge allows you to be more in control over the fight. Sure this will require you to fight OFF point, but with some common sense you can just prevent point capping ftw.

I hope this can give some insight at least to some extent, I've had eight wins in a row so far, but mainly what I am trying to get at in saying all of this is that the problem is not the Scourge, the problem is the ability for everyone to recognize what it actually takes to win.

[FyzE.3472]

Yes! Let them play 3x3 every match and leave them alone! Everything is fine!

[Interpretor.3091]

Scourge is strong man, the thing you are seeing is that it's 'flavor of the month' and everyone is playing it, even the bad players. In higher ranked games with scourges who know what they are doing, it's almost rediculous how strong and how much they influence the overall game. It shouldnt be that way, their dmg is way too overpowering and it's all AoE.

[reukies.6418]

People already know this, its just people joining the bandwagon now.

Scourges are strong, but people are over reacting/salty because they didn't get a nerf in the last patch. The same people don't see the fact that it was broken OP in the first place due to 2 "bugs" (stacking and dhummfire) which were fixed and therefore a massive nerf to damage.

But nope, bug fix =\= nerf, so the cry for nerf continues.

[FyzE.3472]

@reukies.6418 said:

People already know this, its just people joining the bandwagon now.

Scourges are strong, but people are over reacting/salty because they didn't get a nerf in the last patch. The same people don't see the fact that it was broken OP in the first place due to 2 "bugs" (stacking and dhummfire) which were fixed and therefore a massive nerf to damage.

But nope, bug fix =\= nerf, so the cry for nerf continues.

So how long have you been able to grind the pipe with scourge?

[Furious.2867]

Scourges should be stripped off their ability to defend their dirty spec.

[Morwath.9817]

@reukies.6418 said:People already know this, its just people joining the bandwagon now.

Scourges are strong, but people are over reacting/salty because they didn't get a nerf in the last patch. The same people don't see the fact that it was broken OP in the first place due to 2 "bugs" (stacking and dhummfire) which were fixed and therefore a massive nerf to damage.

But nope, bug fix =\= nerf, so the cry for nerf continues.

Quaggan doesn't think people are over reacting. If you compare Scrouge to Reaper (which was considered cancerous back in the days), Scrouge is superior in every aspect to it, like Reaper is superior to Core Necro... and if Reaper was already really strong while supported, oh well... Quaggan doesn't know what to think.

[Sismis.5390]

But but!Still scared to look under bed there is a scourge there!

[ugrakarma.9416]

Scourge after last changes, becomes high risk/high reward, if u get a oponent team with 1 or 2 thats know how to fight scourge u will become a punch bag. otherwise if opposite team dont know or bother about scourge u become a game changer and granted a win. and its very weak against long-ranged(deadeyes,rangers)

[reukies.6418]

@Morwath.9817 said:

Quaggan doesn't think people are over reacting. If you compare Scrouge to Reaper (which was considered cancerous back in the days), Scrouge is superior in every aspect to it, like Reaper is superior to Core Necro... and if Reaper was already really strong while supported, oh well... Quaggan doesn't know what to think.

Every aspect? Maybe in pvp only, even then, in terms of survivability reaper is better. But in general yeah, Scourge> Reaper> Core necro in PvP.

Reaper was (the recent pre balance reaper) only strong if supported, alone it wasn't really good...it was tanky tho!(unless you're talking about when it was released, I wasn't here around that time, so I have no idea, but heard it was OP).

From my point of view it is over reacting. Scourge is strong, top tier. I agree with that 100%. But it is no where near OP as it was, and not even broken. 1v1ing a scourge is easier on some classes than others, but I don't think it's impossible on any (might be wrong here).

In team fights it is harder against a scourge, but it is because people like doing their own thing. I've noticed this recently where I target the scourge and focus it asap, but instead I see my team just targeting the closest thing to them...funny cause it's usually followed with "this guy has infinite blocking!!!1!" or the funniest I have heard is "there is a thief on me, I can't switch targets!" when the scourge was running circle around them...and of course the thief shadow steps away anyway.

@ugrakarma.9416 said:Scourge after last changes, becomes high risk/high reward, if u get a oponent team with 1 or 2 thats know how to fight scourge u will become a punch bag. otherwise if opposite team dont know or bother about scourge u become a game changer and granted a win. and its very weak against long-ranged(deadeyes,rangers)

Until the ranger/deadeye decide to not use long range to their advantage and instead sit in one place and boon up...right?

[Jariel.9274]

Obviously Spellbreaker was broken. (Indeed it was)About Scourge people are over-reacting.

Makes perfect sense.

[Avigrus.2871]

Wish they'd revert the Reaper LF degen changes - those hit the profession pretty hard.

[Interpretor.3091]

In a 1v1, Scourge grossly out performs almost every single class in dmg, survivability and utility, and is probably equal to the 1 or 2 classes that it does not overpower. And if that is not enough it is incredibly powerful in teamfights and offers a plethora of support capabilities.In the right hands, Scourge dominates everything right now. It's too much and should be be reviewed. Burst conditions on multiple targets should not be a thing. Same reason why mirage is so rediculous right now too, especially with the SB nerfs, those classes have no counter.

[Flauvious.6195]

I'd rather deal with a scourge then a mesmer any day, it's just every game has 4 scourges so they get the most attention

[Kaga.7629]

All the scum complained about spellbreaker to the point that CORE WAR WAS NERFED.
Now it's gonna be their turn. And karma better provide something tasty because wars are hungry for payback.

[brannigan.9831]

It obviously hasn't since they are still a gigantic problem in spvp.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

@Kaga.7629 said:All the scum complained about spellbreaker to the point that CORE WAR WAS NERFED.

Now it's gonna be their turn. And karma better provide something tasty because wars are hungry for payback.

Eh core warrior got an equal number of buffs to help it not be shit. I can win platinum games with core war no problem.

The trick is to realize that using Berz stance with last stand actually got buffed. Last stand doesn't just give a free stunbreak every 40 seconds it gives your stances VIGOR. With Berz at 30 seconds you can now chain BS+LS+EP+BS for almost permanent vigor. This means core war basically traded 7 seconds of stability for 6 seconds of more dodge and better damage. Greataxe build is fine.

[reukies.6418]

@Interpretor.3091 said:In a 1v1, Scourge grossly out performs almost every single class in dmg, survivability and utility, and is probably equal to the 1 or 2 classes that it does not overpower. And if that is not enough it is incredibly powerful in teamfights and offers a plethora of support capabilities.In the right hands, Scourge dominates everything right now. It's too much and should be be reviewed. Burst conditions on multiple targets should not be a thing. Same reason why mirage is so rediculous right now too, especially with the SB nerfs, those classes have no counter.

Seriously? Out performs in survivability and utility? The only thing about survivability going for scourge is that they can kill before being killed. And people think they aren't overreacting...

[rsegames.3916]

The only thing that got so far right now is the dellusion of some people that scourge (and lets be even more honest and put firebrand and mirage here) is fine. The amount of work i have to do on a core account vs a PoF account in pvp is insane. Even the so called "scourge is terrible if not supported/alone" makes me wonder how horrible these people are as gamers, since even not knowing much about scourges and playing one on my friends account in his house, i was easily able to obliterate two people regularly in the matches i got without caring about my safety for the whole evening.

To think is just a "dont step on the red" case, then the scourge player already won, since its really easy to can place my area denials in the point i cap while denying strategic positions that will just in the worst case eat more than half of your life in seconds, and reaply with ease even if you struggle to cleanse to "have a chance".

But then again, his account is low silver and i getting used to going up/down in plat1/gold3 in my core account, so i will be condescendent that maybe it was a one day thing if you really need that to keep the game in his atual joke state.

[Jackalrat.5493]

To be honest, I felt like Scourges were deciding the outcomes of most of my ranked games before I threw in the towel and that definitely sucked, especially as a Reaper main who potentially steals their spots on a team, thus making me really worthless.

But that's not even why Scourges really suck. They're just not fun to play against at all. There's almost no reactive or interesting gameplay, especially if you're fighting them as melee. You go in, get full row of damaging condis + weakness. Cleanse. It's back. Cleanse again. It's back. You can cleanse all you want - it's coming back immediately and with more DPS than you're ever gonna throw their way. Can't hurt them, cause you have weakness up indefinitely and you can't keep any might, stability, or fury rolling. The whole condi/boon meta has a champion and it's Scourge.

[Nilkemia.8507]

Oh don't worry. They'll get around to it, since necromancers can never be good at anything for too long. And once it happens, they'll be the red headed stepchild profession that no one likes again.

[ugrakarma.9416]

DD Thievs, Deadeyes, rangers, all good against scourge.

The only ones have bad time is the perma boon spammers. btw its a fair counter cancer condi the perma boon spammers til the ashes.

[Jackalrat.5493]

@ugrakarma.9416 said:DD Thievs, Deadeyes, rangers, all good against scourge.

The only ones have bad time is the perma boon spammers. btw its a fair counter cancer condi the perma boon spammers til the ashes.

Yeah, see, counter should mean "is good against", and it stands to reason as the phrase in your first statement. In the second sentence your use of counter might as well mean, "Kills outright and effortlessly."

[Razor.6392]

All I know is that as soon as I come close to one of those shades, I LITERALLY get a full bar of conditions (torment, weakness, burn, vuln, slow, bleed, etc).

[powerbits.6235]

I agree with scourge being too strong in pvp. In wvw, a maguuma driver two days ago described the scourge as a mobile superior arrow cart on steroids. it is almost comical, no one will push against the other team if they have 10 or more scourges. So the standoff begins, teams go back and fourth trying to kill single targets with range, and once the tag dips in he dies and everyone must regroup. Full soldier firebrand can not push into comps with 10 or more scourge for more than a few seconds, stability is instantly stripped over and over and they melt trying to back out. It is the guardian that has been the tag of choice for a very long time, now you are lucky to see 4 in a group of 40. The result of losing guardian game play is whole guilds have stopped hosting raids and the borderlands are empty at prime time, If anet leaves it as it is, bigger guilds will disappear from wvw raids all together. The smarter players will continue to stop playing wvw because they like complicated compositions as part of the gameplay. But once condition damage became the meta, the composition planning could not keep up because only more condition damage can beat condition damage, and most people do not want to be confined to one class. This has marked the beginning of the end to gvg, zerg busting, and popular guilds hosting raids. I have been told several times that roaming is dead, but soon so will the whole competitive part of the game. I think scourge is an easy class I own one fully ascended, but it is so easy to play that I hate it. A lot of people feel that way, to me It was a waste of mats...

I understand that this is a pvp post, but it really feels bad man. Anet is self destructive. All the towers are t3, the "team" comp became ranged and scourge, and many tags just go to one tower, cap it, and tag down because they can not take any thing else. Scourge is only one part of a bigger problem, but atm it is the biggest part.