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WvW NOT FUN, NOT PLAYABLE, AND ABUSIVE


HeIIica.2945

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I generally play WvW two hours a day and I have fun doing so. There are times when the map or team chat gets toxic, other times it's just people blathering about nothing because they apparently feel compelled to talk, even if it's about nothing. I ignore the blather and if someone gets too toxic in chat, I block them. In neither case do such folks stop me from having fun in WvW.  shrug

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Theres 2 types of WvW  players

The one's that their zerg cant zerg alone and theres still enemy players in map and the ones that are fed up with their server being linked with other servers with the same population peak at the same time but cant cover other timezones so they end outmaned for most time.


Anet double standards towards "good experience".

Edited by Aeolus.3615
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They removed most viable strategies from the gamemode by changing wall/gate hp, supply counts, upgrade times and siege damage.


They removed fair fights, duels and any fighting scenes by adding claim buff.

 

They made people do no damage alone by buffing celestial and adding ultragigabroken minstrel.

 

They gave ton of superspeed uptime so people are faster than most builds are capable of dealing with

 

They massively increased RNG in teammates so you can't find a suitable server or timezone

 

It isn't surprise WvW feels unbalanced. All of the above need adjustment or even reverting the changes. Note that only one they seem to be aware of is superspeed one.

Edited by Riba.3271
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55 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

They removed most viable strategies from the gamemode by changing wall/gate hp, supply counts, upgrade times and siege damage.


They removed fair fights, duels and any fighting scenes by adding claim buff.

 

They made people do no damage alone by buffing celestial and adding ultragigabroken minstrel.

 

They gave ton of superspeed uptime so people are faster than most builds are capable of dealing with

 

They massively increased RNG in teammates so you can't find a suitable server or timezone

 

It isn't surprise WvW feels unbalanced. All of the above need adjustment or even reverting the changes. Note that only one they seem to be aware of is superspeed one.

Name a strategy they removed that wasn't based on broken trait interactions?

 

Lure them away from their tower, stop trying to fight the ranger that's camping above. Use pulls, don't just stand there with melee weapons and cry.

 

There's plenty of damage, you just don't know how to use it. If you're dying to someone in minstrels you're just bad

 

Run speed runes, congrats now you're fast

 

????

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3 hours ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

Name a strategy they removed that wasn't based on broken trait interactions?

 

Lure them away from their tower, stop trying to fight the ranger that's camping above. Use pulls, don't just stand there with melee weapons and cry.

 

There's plenty of damage, you just don't know how to use it. If you're dying to someone in minstrels you're just bad

 

Run speed runes, congrats now you're fast

 

????

The poster you are referencing is convinced that claim buff has killed the mode.  🤷🤦‍♂️😉

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On 11/7/2022 at 2:16 PM, HeIIica.2945 said:

I don't know what Anet has done, but wvw has become not fun, abusive, and unplayable......good job.

 

Sorry you were having a bad time, but any additional detail to feed us here at the peanut gallery? Granted if it was just a rough week, step back and come back a new match week and remember you are playing to have fun and stepping away when you are not is valid. But if you are looking for changes, well that requires a bit more feedback if it is a discussion you are looking for. Not saying you will get one, but you might have better odds going a different route.

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7 hours ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

Name a strategy they removed that wasn't based on broken trait interactions?

Do note that I was referring to siege and objective changes on how they removed most strategies.

 

I can name a few:

- Trebs do half damage to rams now so they don't kill rams in time before gate is down. Arrow carts have same interaction with catas.

- Trebbing from far away is waste now due to plethora of supply and the fact that shield gens block all trebs

- Taking most towers is limited to 1 strategy to take when they have watchtower and you lack numbers. People learn to counter those strategies very fast. Note that walking under watchtower and being spotted is instant death to smaller groups.

- Placed siege does 50% less damage to golems now and golems are affected by boons now (so quickness + might is 60% more damage, prot means 33% less damage taken). Walls and gates are also weaker. Shield gens block any counter siege you use. Tell me how what strategy you use here? You can't even slow enemy blobs down anymore.

- Draining supply doesn't matter anymore since all towers and keeps are pretty much full when you tag up and you won't stay long enough for draining to matter.

- Keeps and Castles upgrading 2 to 5 times faster means there is little you can do to stop enemy strong timezones. Before resetting enemy objectives had bigger impact, and so did slowing enemy blob down as long as you can.

None of these problematic gamebreaking changes have been adjusted since implementation. They just threw them in the game then forgot about it.

 

The other points:

- Claim buffs are same as gliding zones so they reach everywhere, 400 stats is at least 1.33 ascended trinkets so difference of fighting at enemy or friendly tower is close to 3 ascended trinkets. If you equipped 3 ascended trinkets, you would be a god. If doubting the size of effect, try playing after taking 2 or 3 trinkets off. This is why fights inside objectives and dueling died. It isn't about having 1 good fight at 1 location, it is having consecutive ones over long period of time.

- I am not dying to them. It is fine for minstrel to be tanky but concentration is just overstatted stat since it affects 5 teammates and it is easy to get +60% boon duration for free while getting optimal stats. Same issue applies to celestial.

- I play speed runes on a few builds, but everyone being fast doesn't mean that AoE pulsing fields have become too small and get too few ticks off as everyone has gotten extra movement speed. Skills were designed having certain range and radius according to how much movement speed players had on release. Adding more broke that design.

It seems you think I am some kind of scrub but I am actually amongst the best players no matter what server I go to. I am also amazing at math. I feel like issue here is that you never saw old WvW or don't remember it, so you don't know how things have changed. All I can tell you is that while they made ton of improvements to WvW, lot of things have gotten worse on competitive and longetivity side.

Edited by Riba.3271
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4 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

The poster you are referencing is convinced that claim buff has killed the mode.  🤷🤦‍♂️😉

I am certain that claim buff is amongst the things making gamemode worse, yes, and it is the biggest offender since it affects the perceived skill ranking of players/groups and can't be played around. But it is based upon my own observations how fights play out at differing locations and how the numbers convert to extra damage or survivability.  Making fun of it won't change the fact that it was overtuned from release. Only reason playerbase didn't catch onto it is because guilds took months to upgrade their guild hall.

Edited by Riba.3271
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37 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

Do note that I was referring to siege and objective changes on how they removed most strategies.

 

I can name a few:

- Trebs do half damage to rams now so they don't kill rams in time before gate is down. Arrow carts have same interaction with catas.

- Trebbing from far away is waste now due to plethora of supply and the fact that shield gens block all trebs

- Taking most towers is limited to 1 strategy to take when they have watchtower and you lack numbers. People learn to counter those strategies very fast. Note that walking under watchtower and being spotted is instant death to smaller groups.

- Placed siege does 50% less damage to golems now and golems are affected by boons now (so quickness + might is 60% more damage, prot means 33% less damage taken). Walls and gates are also weaker. Shield gens block any counter siege you use. Tell me how what strategy you use here? You can't even slow enemy blobs down anymore.

- Draining supply doesn't matter anymore since all towers and keeps are pretty much full when you tag up and you won't stay long enough for draining to matter.

- Keeps and Castles upgrading 2 to 5 times faster means there is little you can do to stop enemy strong timezones. Before resetting enemy objectives had bigger impact, and so did slowing enemy blob down as long as you can.

None of these problematic gamebreaking changes have been adjusted since implementation. They just threw them in the game then forgot about it.

 

The other points:

- Claim buffs are same as gliding zones so they reach everywhere, 400 stats is at least 1.33 ascended trinkets so difference of fighting at enemy or friendly tower is close to 3 ascended trinkets. If you equipped 3 ascended trinkets, you would be a god. If doubting the size of effect, try playing after taking 2 or 3 trinkets off. This is why fights inside objectives and dueling died. It isn't about having 1 good fight at 1 location, it is having consecutive ones over long period of time.

- I am not dying to them. It is fine for minstrel to be tanky but concentration is just overstatted stat since it affects 5 teammates and it is easy to get +60% boon duration for free while getting optimal stats. Same issue applies to celestial.

- I play speed runes on a few builds, but everyone being fast doesn't mean that AoE pulsing fields have become too small and get too few ticks off as everyone has gotten extra movement speed. Skills were designed having certain range and radius according to how much movement speed players had on release. Adding more broke that design.

It seems you think I am some kind of scrub but I am actually amongst the best players no matter what server I go to. I am also amazing at math. I feel like issue here is that you never saw old WvW or don't remember it, so you don't know how things have changed. All I can tell you is that while they made ton of improvements to WvW, lot of things have gotten worse on competitive and longetivity side.


Aiite, you had me reading til "but I am actually amongst the best players no matter what server I go to". Elitism means squat and thats what this is. Ive fought bigger names and won some and lost some...being "the best" means nothing in WvW.

Now on to something constructive to the conversation. I am usually a solo/duo roamer/scout (used to run Calvary squads back in the day) and I run my guilds WvW missions every week as well as pugmand should a need arise and out BL isnt looking very good. I am HUGE on siege and placements and all that fun stuff. Ive used some unique spots to counter others. That said here is my take on your responses (not all are wrong imo btw)

1.) - Trebs do half damage to rams now so they don't kill rams in time before gate is down. Arrow carts have same interaction with catas.

With the knockback on treb shots upon impact, yes they do less damage now (which sucks seeing how much sups they take) however its somewhat rare that I dont get rams down with a treb before gate drops (granted this is at/near the beginning of teh defense). Strats here would be to have at least 1/2 AC's at the same time if  you are having issues. This will force any supports to blow their heals and such while the treb is CC'ing the crap outta them and their rams. I do wanna say that the reduced damage from AC's on Rams/Catas needs to be looked at.

2.) Trebbing from far away is waste now due to plethora of supply and the fact that shield gens block all trebs

Cant tell ya how many times ive used trebs from max distance with success (its a lot btw). This is where placements of other siege OR a good roamer with even 1 disable comes in handy. Its nice if you have good roamers you can all on as even in a ZvZ they can prove invaluable.  Granted you wont always have an optimal set up, however im only here to go over my experiences based on your statements.

 

3.) Taking most towers is limited to 1 strategy to take when they have watchtower and you lack numbers. People learn to counter those strategies very fast. Note that walking under watchtower and being spotted is instant death to smaller groups.

This...is mostly true. Best strat here is to break walls from out of radars range and zip to lord and burn hard/fast. Not many other strats for this scenario as watchtower can...ahem...block a ton of other strats so I agree with ya here

 

4.)  Placed siege does 50% less damage to golems now and golems are affected by boons now (so quickness + might is 60% more damage, prot means 33% less damage taken). Walls and gates are also weaker. Shield gens block any counter siege you use. Tell me how what strategy you use here? You can't even slow enemy blobs down anymore.

My fav scenario when I am running. Pending the structure theres still counterplay via balis, catas and even trebs. Hills is my fav to defend from golems as it can be easy when you place balis in the right spots (where golems nor even LB rangers can hit you). Being affected by boons is a bummer (unless i am in that golem ofc lol) however this is also where decent roamers/scouts and disablers are invaluable as well. 

 

5.) Draining supply doesn't matter anymore since all towers and keeps are pretty much full when you tag up and you won't stay long enough for draining to matter.

 

This reason is why i make sure to slot Sabotage Depot in every structure I care about. On the flip side while a t1 keep was getting zerged I have managed to get a strategic cata down in a hidden but good spot for a wall AND an omega golem ported to spawn before things flip (iron guards also great for this...another slot I make sure keeps have). If im on my DE I can usually get back in before flips and keeps ports open long enough for keeps radar to drop and hop on the cata I built to take down inner wall and port ppl in from outer.

 

6.) Keeps and Castles upgrading 2 to 5 times faster means there is little you can do to stop enemy strong timezones. Before resetting enemy objectives had bigger impact, and so did slowing enemy blob down as long as you can.

 

This...I can also give you points for as well. Theres so much you can do esp when they are walking yaks (4-5 vs 1-2 of you and they have golems in camps and someone piloting AFK into supply hut). Were against a guild that does this every morning I am on (somewhat known guild as well). Ive managed to sneak a bali/treb in the area and take the golems out and snipe the camps, however more often than not it proves near impossible.

As for the other points you made, claim buff, like bloodlust buff, makes a minimal difference in the grand scheme of things as when it boils down to it, defense/attacking things is more reliant on skills, numbers and builds. How many times have you won outnumbered (or even equal) encounters while enemy had buff?

 

Wont go over the runes and concentration and such as thats moot (cele OP) butr I do agree that while they have improved WvW overall, they broke some other things while doing it.


These are just all my observations as every day...8+ hours a day mon-sat I run in WvW and I look for moments to get creative with siege placements and test effectiveness of placing them in certain areas. Im far from "the best in my server, any server I am in" however as analytical as I am I constantly look for ways to defend certain spots better, even if im solo.

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1 hour ago, Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

With the knockback on treb shots upon impact, yes they do less damage now (which sucks seeing how much sups they take) however its somewhat rare that I dont get rams down with a treb before gate drops (granted this is at/near the beginning of teh defense).

Treb knockback doesn't reach correctly placed ram users. It does hit almost all max range rams from behind gate, you are correct, but if rams are placed max range in each corner, you can only hit 1 at a time, and not knock the user off. There are also some gates like north hills and veloka where I have seem commanders ram it from super far away, which seems like a bug.

1 hour ago, Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

Cant tell ya how many times ive used trebs from max distance with success (its a lot btw).

Yes, trebbing is still something I do quite often but you must admit with everything having ton of supply and shield gens countering places like trebbing inner bay from the camp is problematic. Especially since keeps and castles upgrade super fast now. And claim buffs make it hard to actually take it once the walls are down, since you have to deal with lord and overstatted defenders at same time even if you manage to destroy all siege that hits lord room.

1 hour ago, Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

4.)  Placed siege does 50% less damage to golems now and golems are affected by boons now (so quickness + might is 60% more damage, prot means 33% less damage taken). Walls and gates are also weaker. Shield gens block any counter siege you use. Tell me how what strategy you use here? You can't even slow enemy blobs down anymore.

And as commander, everytime I have over 10 people and I have to take something with a scout, I bring 5+ (typically melee since omegas can be reflected if users don't use action camera) golems and we just rush the gate down before ballista or treb can even kill one golem. We disable cannons/oils as well as build shield generators. It is just uncounterable.

1 hour ago, Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

 

This reason is why i make sure to slot Sabotage Depot in every structure I care about. On the flip side while a t1 keep was getting zerged I have managed to get a strategic cata down in a hidden but good spot for a wall AND an omega golem ported to spawn before things flip (iron guards also great for this...another slot I make sure keeps have). If im on my DE I can usually get back in before flips and keeps ports open long enough for keeps radar to drop and hop on the cata I built to take down inner wall and port ppl in from outer.

Yea, but you gotta admit that before when you tagged up and keeps were T2 or freshly T3, while also taking longer to upgrade, they were almost always empty of supply. Going from that balance to everything being full of supply, was a massive jump in how much siege, and mostly repairs, there are in all sides

1 hour ago, Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

As for the other points you made, claim buff, like bloodlust buff, makes a minimal difference in the grand scheme of things as when it boils down to it, defense/attacking things is more reliant on skills, numbers and builds. How many times have you won outnumbered (or even equal) encounters while enemy had buff?

Bloodlust is very bad example because typically all servers have it, and it is only 120 or 150 effective combat stats, whereas claim buff is 400 stats for 1 side that swaps arbitrarily on open field to other side. So we are dealing with constant 800 stat swings rather than rare 150 ones.

 

Claim buff makes a large difference. If you having extra runeset worth of stats near your tower, and enemy having it instead near theirs, is not noticeable to you, it just means fights at that level are mostly decided by who misses less abilities. Inside keeps this is even doubled.


Do note that right after claim buff was added, in the next patch they nerfed wall and gate hp. So while I want them to rework claim buff into non combat buffs , I also want them to return some of the siege vs siege damage and wall/gate hp. Shield gens should be reworked into only bubbling around them (with the 1/area cap) and upgrade dolyak amounts of keeps and castles should be increased by at least 50% and 100% respectively.  So slightly closer to old balance where defenders stood a chance at stopping much larger groups

 

1 hour ago, Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

 

Wont go over the runes and concentration and such as thats moot (cele OP) butr I do agree that while they have improved WvW overall, they broke some other things while doing it.

I think they only need slight nerf. From 15 concentration -> 1% boon duration to 25 concentration -> 1% boon duration (only in WvW), would still keep both of them S-tier stats while not affecting other roaming builds that mostly get boon duration from runes.

1 hour ago, Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

These are just all my observations as every day...8+ hours a day mon-sat I run in WvW and I look for moments to get creative with siege placements and test effectiveness of placing them in certain areas. Im far from "the best in my server, any server I am in" however as analytical as I am I constantly look for ways to defend certain spots better, even if im solo

Yes, I used to love strategic siege gameplay as well. But once the optimal offence strategy is implemented: guild golems (50 supply each, supply cost nerf needed) and shield gens, unstoppable by defenders, defending becomes just stats and numbers. Actually anything and shield gens is problematic.

Edited by Riba.3271
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5 minutes ago, Riba.3271 said:

Treb knockback doesn't reach correctly placed ram users. It does hit almost all max range rams from behind gate, you are correct, but if rams are placed max range in each corner, you can only hit 1 at a time, and not knock the user off. There are also some gates like north hills and veloka where I have seem commanders ram it from super far away, which seems like a bug.

Yes, trebbing is still something I do quite often but you must admit with everything having ton of supply and shield gens countering places like trebbing inner bay from the camp is problematic. Especially since keeps and castles upgrade super fast now. And claim buffs make it hard to actually take it once the walls are down, since you have to deal with lord and overstatted defenders at same time even if you manage to destroy all siege that hits lord room.

And as commander, everytime I have over 10 people and I have to take something with a scout, I bring 5+ (typically melee since omegas can be reflected if users don't use action camera) golems and we just rush the gate down before ballista or treb can even kill one golem. We disable cannons/oils as well as build shield generators. It is just uncounterable.

Yea, but you gotta admit that before when you tagged up and keeps were T2 or freshly T3, while also taking longer to upgrade, they were almost always empty of supply. Going from that balance to everything being full of supply, was a massive jump in how much siege there are in all sides

Bloodlust is very bad example because typically all servers have it, and it is only 120 or 150 effective combat stats, whereas claim buff is 400 stats for 1 side that swaps arbitrarily on open field to other side. So we are dealing with constant 800 stat swings rather than rare 150 ones.

 

Claim buff makes a large difference. If you having extra runeset worth of stats near your tower, and enemy having it instead near theirs, is not noticeable to you, it just means fights at that level are mostly decided by who misses less abilities. Inside keeps this is even doubled.


Do note that right after claim buff was added, in the next patch they nerfed wall and gate hp. So while I want them to rework claim buff into non combat stats , I also want them to return some of the siege vs siege damage and wall/gate hp. Shield gens should be reworked into only bubbling around them (with the 1/area cap) and upgrade dolyak amounts of keeps and castles should be increased by at least 50% and 100% respectively.  So slightly closer to old balance where defenders stood a chance.

 

I think they only need slight nerf. From 15 concentration -> 1% boon duration to 25 concentration -> 1% boon duration (only in WvW), would still keep both of them S-tier stats while not affecting other roaming builds that mostly get boon duration from runes.

Yes, I used to love strategic siege gameplay as well. But once the optimal offence strategy is implemented: guild golems (50 supply each, supply cost nerf needed) and shield gens, unstoppable by defenders, defending becomes just stats and numbers. Actually anything and shield gens is problematic.


Appreciate all legit, non sarcastic responses (wanted to mention 1st and foremost) Forums are full of them so thank you.

When it comes to siege/supply/walls/gate changes, I look at them no differently than when the meta builds change. Adapt the best you can with that you have. I see this myself as a personal challenge (this goes along with my ADD combined with analytical sense lol). Does it work? Sometimes, however I never stop trying and thinking of other ways. Roamers are usually looked down upon by zerg comms, im out to prove were useful af 😉 

Still figuring out best strat at certain structures for golems. I have 1 (expensive) strat using golems against golems, however Im convinced theres more ways.

I do agree with your concentration idea tho, as for claim buffs, its a double edge sword really. Im voting to just leave it

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