Oct 14 - 21 World Restructuring Beta Recap

[Rubi Bayer.8493]

Hello everyone, I have a message from Senior Game Designer Floyd Grubb:

 

Greetings from the Mists!

Now that the dust has settled on our most recent WvW Restructuring beta, we wanted to take a few moments to give a quick recap and talk a bit about some improvements you'll be seeing over the next few months.

Phase 1 of the World Restructuring rollout is focused on getting the backend systems to a stable and automated state. Two of the biggest issues we've been tackling over the past year that have prevented us from achieving that stable state include players being placed on the incorrect team and the queue issue that causes players to lose their spot in line when trying to join a queued WvW map. We made some significant strides forward with the last beta. We saw the fewest number of players placed on the incorrect team thanks to some recent code fixes and the in-game mail that reminded players to choose their WvW guild. While incorrect team placement was rampant in our first few betas, we've managed to narrow it down to just a few edge cases and we were able to identify the root cause of one such edge case during the last beta.

Now that the underlying tech for guild selection and team placement is nearly hammered into shape, we'll be integrating the guild selection functionality that currently resides in the World Restructuring - BETA panel into the guild panel, its new permanent home. This follows the Beta Development approach we laid out late last year.

In the November 8 update, players will be able to choose their WvW guild for matchmaking purposes from either the WvW panel or the guild panel. Eventually, the World Restructuring - BETA panel will be deprecated, and the guild panel will become the only way to manage your WvW guild selection. These panels will remain accessible outside of World Restructuring Beta events, allowing players to update their WvW guild selection at any time prior to a matchmaking event.

The guild panel has also been updated with new WvW guild selection functionality and iconography:

• If you are currently on the same team with your WvW guild, it will show an "active" icon.
• A "pending" icon will display next to your WvW guild if you are not currently on the same team as your WvW guild. You will be placed on the same team as your WvW guild in the next matchmaking event.

On the queue-issue side of things, we have a handful of improvements in the pipeline, tentatively scheduled for mid-November. Note, these changes do not require a full game build—they're server updates.

• If a player is map traveling when a WvW queue pops, the queue-ready panel will now reopen once they've finished loading without requiring any workarounds on the player's part.
• We added an Enter WvW button to the WvW map selection screen, similar to the one seen on the queue-ready panel. Essentially, this is an additional way to enter WvW when your queue is ready.
• We fixed several instances where the WvW queue-ready panel wasn't properly reflecting the server state.
• We fixed instances where ready players would keep using up their reserved slots a little longer than necessary, which should essentially make the queueing faster for players.

We're looking at hosting at least one more Phase 1 beta before the end of the year to test out the changes above. Phase 2 (alliances) is slated to follow early next year, barring any unforeseen complications.

Finally, we want to apologize for the issues surrounding the WvW World Restructuring Beta Veteran achievement and the War Machine weapon skin rewards. It was exciting for us to be able to provide some new rewards to WvW, but their release suffered due to some missteps in our team's release process, which we've since rectified. Game development in a live environment is a complex endeavor, and if proper procedure is not followed, even for mundane tasks, it is easy for mistakes to be made.

That's all for now. Thanks for reading. See you in the Mists!

Floyd Grubb,
Senior Game Designer, WvW

[Heisen.2315]

Great information! A question, will we be able to collect or buy the remaining 15 new weapon skins anytime soon?

[Izzy.2951]

ty good reading

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Thanks for the very informative update.  You and your team rock!

[vice.2697]

Finally, we want to apologize for the issues surrounding the WvW World Restructuring Beta Veteran achievement and the War Machine weapon skin rewards. It was exciting for us to be able to provide some new rewards to WvW, but their release suffered due to some missteps in our team's release process, which we've since rectified. Game development in a live environment is a complex endeavor, and if proper procedure is not followed, even for mundane tasks, it is easy for mistakes to be made.

 

I love this statement Grubb keep on keeping on.

[brakheart.1407]

Thank you for the update :)

[Infusion.7149]

Thanks for the update

It is interesting the effect an in-game mail had on people choosing a WvW guild, I suspect that mainly applies to people that don't normally WvW.
 

[Chichimec.9364]

Thank you. That was an informative communication and I hope this kind of information sharing continues on a timely basis.

[Elementalist Owner.7802]

mans name is Floyd Grubb 💀

[Sviel.7493]

This is good communication.  I'm so happy to see it that I'm temporarily not worried about all the actual gameplay updates that are on hold until this is all finished.

[Dreggon.6598]

The incorrect team bug is caused by players being assigned to the correct colour for their home server, but in the same matchup as their alliance.

 

So let's say my home server is Maguuma, and they're green in this week's beta matchup, and the alliance name for the Maguuma server is Seven Pines. Seven Pines is in a matchup with Thornwatch (blue) and Stonefall (red). We'll call this Matchup A.

 

For the beta, I was on Moogooloo, which was probably the name assigned to Anvil Rock, and we were blue. Moogooloo is in a matchup with Dragon's Claw (green) and Fortune's Vale (red). We'll call this Matchup B.

 

My guildmate's home server is also Maguuma, and they were also on Moogooloo (blue), in Matchup B. They joined WvW, and ended up on the Dragon's Claw (green) side in Matchup B, because Maguuma (Seven Pines) is green in Matchup A. Relogging fixed the issue and placed her on the Moogooloo (blue) side in Matchup B.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Dreggon.6598

[CoyrmGreybeard.1746]

I've recently dipped my toes into WvW and the aspect that stands out to me is it's way too hard to play with my friends. I'm in guilds on different servers, and I can't play WvW with both under the current system. Will the new system allow me to play with friends on different servers? Preferably with an easy mechanic like switching the guild I represent, though even having to log out and back in with a different choice would be acceptable.

[Custodio.6134]

26 minutes ago, CoyrmGreybeard.1746 said:

I've recently dipped my toes into WvW and the aspect that stands out to me is it's way too hard to play with my friends. I'm in guilds on different servers, and I can't play WvW with both under the current system. Will the new system allow me to play with friends on different servers? Preferably with an easy mechanic like switching the guild I represent, though even having to log out and back in with a different choice would be acceptable.

Servers won't exist by then. You're put into a team with your alliance (if your guild joined one) together with your guild, or into a random team together with your guild if they didn't join an alliance. 

It's entirely seperate from what guild you represent (like it's already the case in the beta, just with extended functionality). 

However, team transfers were initially planned to be removed, but it still may be a thing after WR happens. 

[Leaa.2943]

I still would like to get information of how you plan on making tools to ballances matches? The tools you have now are absolutely 100% utterly useless and is making terrible matchmakings in EU and on top of that forcing 3 servers every relink to not have a link and be closed for a period of 2 months. The way this is done is creating horrible situation in EU where comunities big and small are ripped apart. Some server are dying hard right now. 

As far as we have learned, you (Arena Net) are still going to match the alliances who will fight eachother. And if the tools used now is the same tools used then, EU WvW will remain uneven and some servers/worlds/matches (what ever you call them when alliances is a thing)  will still be treated differently then others. 

If allainces in EU is gonna have any sort of chance to change WvW to the better, the tools you are gonna use can not be those you use today. If so the changes is already doomed. 

So could we please have some healthy discussions and information shared from Arena Net  about this topic because it is actually by far the most important one and what will determind if EU WvW is gonna survive and improve.

 

Things like population size for each alliance. And i mean the one that is actually gonna be what we move in to when alliances comes out. How large is one alliance gonna be. The players not in a allaince where will they be placed? How will they be counted towards  in game time? Will those players be placed on their own worlds or forced in to alliances they might not even want to be on?

Game time, which now is counted in a fluffed up way, where servers in EU suffers like hell because of the scewed way the time is counted which is total game time and not when the players  are really online during  24 hours period which create problems.

Servers are set to be full because the server have a high game time, but what really is happening is that some of those servers only have players during primetime which in EU is 3 hours in the evening but outnumbered outside of that, or during night time or only mornings and nothing outside of that and those servers usually do not get a link because of high game time and are also closed and stuck in a loop they can not get out of and their servers are only active a few hours a day if that and in the end they break down and dies unless they are saved and get a ling for a period. 

How is that gonna work in alliances? NA have several primetimes so it is easier to set that up whilst, EU only have one, how are you gonna mix up alliances so that a prime alliance don't face a night alliance? This things are REALLY important to be announced and talked about how to fix or EU is really gonna end up on the same spot because we are already moving on each relink if the host or the link do not work with what the guilds/groups wants. Which is pretty much what alliances is gonna do. So could we finally get some info about how this is gonna be different. 

Tl;dr Please Arena net give us in EU some sort of hope that this will work in the end. Talk to us about your tools and what you will do different to not reach the same issue we have in EU today with the tools you use now. We need that information to start belive in you again!

[JPUlisses.8756]

Disable private command tags on WvW.

[Adzekul.3104]

The communication is sincerely appreciated. Speaking for myself, it feels like the beta phase is dragging on and on; knowing that important progress is being made doesn't change this, but it increases the hope/goodwill factor from me as an individual player.

[NightFlight.3804]

This is all incredibly encouraging news! Thanks for the update. 
Speaking as someone from a mainly PvE guild that is split across servers, we are waiting patiently for Phase 1 to be completed. 

[subversiontwo.7501]

6 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

So could we please have some healthy discussions and information shared from Arena Net  about this topic because it is actually by far the most important one and what will determind if EU WvW is gonna survive and improve.

I am not ArenaNet but I do like healthy discussions, so let's go! 🙂

6 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

 

Things like population size for each alliance. And i mean the one that is actually gonna be what we move in to when alliances comes out. How large is one alliance gonna be.

The size is 500 (same as a guild). The size of worlds is the same as now (2000-2500). The system is built so they can change.

6 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

I still would like to get information of how you plan on making tools to ballances matches?

This is likely the 3rd and 4th phases of the betas.

• We are still in phase 1 after 18 months (and 4 years of pretending to do work), world-creation mechanics
• Phase 2 (just announced with this thread as being Q1 2023) is the alliance-creation mechanics part
• Phase 3 (no timeframe) is the world-creation algorithms (making all worlds more similar)
• Phase 4 (no timeframe) is the matchup-creation algorithms - along with all subsystems of matchups (scoring, laddering, rewards)

6 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

As far as we have learned, you (Arena Net) are still going to match the alliances who will fight eachother. And if the tools used now is the same tools used then,

I don't think they themselves know this yet. The new system allow them to do either. They can have a 1-up/down ladder or not.

Since worlds are temporary they don't need a ladder, they can easily track individual pieces (alliance, guild, player) and create things like the tournament leagues (gold, silver, bronze) again, based on success, or just have everyone eligable to be matched against everyone - as all servers will be similar in size but not necessarily in other things that lead to success.

6 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

 

The players not in a allaince where will they be placed?

They will be spread out, just like alliances and guilds.

6 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

How will they be counted towards  in game time?

Individually, they will move as an individual piece and their activity will be counted as every other piece and then they will be spread out from similar pieces (size: 1, activity: A-Y).

Spoiler

Note: Every single piece in the puzzle will be attributed size 1-X and activity A-Y. Only ArenaNet can answer how many tiers or steps there will be in each axis (eg., size 1-10 and activity 1-5 or whatever). Each piece will then be matched to similar pieces and those pieces will be spread out to different worlds. Eg., the 10 most active 500-player guilds/alliances will be on 10 different worlds.

 

6 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

 

Will those players be placed on their own worlds or forced in to alliances they might not even want to be on?

It's the same for everyone whether they are alliances, guilds or players. No one gets to choose. Alliances and guilds are how you choose access to players.

6 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

Game time, which now is counted in a fluffed up way

Now it is a threshold (basically tier 1 [yes] and tier 2 [no]). The new system will have more tiers. We don't know how many. It is possible that ArenaNet have an idea of that now that they could (should) share.

6 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

Servers are set to be full because the server have a high game time, but what really is happening is that some of those servers only have players during primetime...

I know you are saying this to set up the next point, but I think one thing is important to clarify here: The new system will reset the size of every world to the same size every 8 weeks. Every 8 weeks all servers will basically be set to very high/full.

That's one of the main points of the system as a whole. We are unlikely to see "medium" relative "full" worlds as there is limited space and time to transfer in. If a world drops to medium it is likely that something catastrophic has happened to its pieces and they have all spread out to a number of other worlds. They can't all move to the same place(s). At "relink" there will be no medium or high worlds.

Spoiler

Example: World soft cap 2000, World hard cap 10% (2200). This means only 200 players can move from World A to World B. While World A will only drop to 1800 players from that, allowing 400 players to move onto it. To lose half your players your world would need to move away to 5+ different worlds. Even if a world loses all its players to 10 other worlds over the course of 8 weeks (unlikely), that world will still be rebuilt at the 8-week mark (certain).

 

6 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

How is that gonna work in alliances? NA have several primetimes so it is easier to set that up whilst, EU only have one, how are you gonna mix up alliances so that a prime alliance don't face a night alliance?

Alliances itself does not do this and do not try to do this. Arguably, timezone issues are best controlled through scoring. Scoring may possibly be part of phase 4 or an undefined phase after 4.

The one thing Alliances do is that it allow every alliance itself more equal access to recruit across regions. Region transfer will still cost gems, but after one transfer (or one batch of alt accounts) have been done, any alliance can just pick those players/guilds up into their own alliance to gain a night crew. That alone will be better than now where some servers (eg., your server) can't really get night crews because they can't get new crews to begin with as they are full.

Spoiler

As an extreme example: You could as 1 EU player create a guild/alliance and recruit 499 NA players who happen to have EU accounts to ensure that any world you are on will always have 20%+ of its population as a night crew, if you want to.

A more average example: It is possible that we will see full alliances take a measured approach to timezones and set aside 10-50% (50-250/500) spots to a night crew. That way the guild/alliance will guarantee itself as a factor in both EU and NA primes at a 2-10% (50-250/2500) degree of any world population they are in.

I'm sure there will be drama and politics about that just like there is with eg., PPK vs. PPT in general, but is that a bad thing? or a natural thing for a WvW mode?

To underline though: For healthy matchups, it is much easier for Anet to deal with timezones through the scoring algorithm than the world-creation or matchup-creation algorithms. Just make score unrewarding at any time you heavily outnumber your opponents and you discourage people from pre-meditatedly stacking low-populated hours to "win" the PPT score, while still allowing people to play those hours normally or without abusing the system.

 

6 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

This things are REALLY important to be announced and talked about how to fix or EU is really gonna end up on the same spot because we are already moving on each relink if the host or the link do not work with what the guilds/groups wants.

Which is pretty much what alliances is gonna do. So could we finally get some info about how this is gonna be different. 

This goes back to the main point of the system: Everybody being moved every 8 weeks is meant to decrease both the need and appeal to do paid transfers. Any transfer you buy is nulled every 8 weeks. For most people that makes it not worth it. With every server being near full, people can't transfer en masse to a popular server with popular alliances, guilds or players - making those popular groups transfer away from everyone transfering in. There will be less reasons to do paid transfers. Together: It is both less worth to do it and there will be less space (than medium servers) and less reasons to do it. It doesn't mean it will stop happening, just that there are system parts in place to discourage the domino-effect problems.

6 hours ago, Leaa.2943 said:

Please Arena net give us in EU some sort of hope that this will work in the end. Talk to us about your tools and what you will do different to not reach the same issue we have in EU today with the tools you use now. We need that information to start belive in you again!

Regardless of what I can answer or comment on in this post - it is true that ArenaNet should still be more communicative and transparent than they are or have been. So yeah, we need more information from them regardless.

Edited November 8, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

Regardless of what I can answer or comment on in this post - it is true that ArenaNet should still be more communicative and transparent than they are or have been. So yeah, we need more information from them regardless.

 

ANet, thanks for the update.! Would be great to see more of these as we beta test. Agree with Subversion here more open dialog is always welcome and might help as we go along as well. 

[roederich.2716]

very nice update to the guild panel.

it would be nice if the roster overview would be added with a "wvw" field so one can see in the roster who of the members have choosen the guild as wvw guild and who not.

this way leaders could help pointing member to do so.

[Rhapsody Dragonfly.5136]

Why is there selection for Alliance? are you guys trying for force us into picking 2 guilds for WvW? 

[Custodio.6134]

9 hours ago, Rhapsody Dragonfly.5136 said:

Why is there selection for Alliance? are you guys trying for force us into picking 2 guilds for WvW? 

tldr: it wasn´t meant to be there in the first place, and is only intended for players without a guild

Edited December 3, 2022 by Custodio.6134

[SlateSloan.3654]

@Josh Davis.7865

So we where supposed to get another beta "early" this year.

Its now mid of february. In about 5 weeks its already spring.

I dont consider this "early".

What happens with alliances? No word in studio update and roadmap.

Dropped the project again without telling?

Edited February 16, 2023 by SlateSloan.3654

[Diku.2546]

On 2/16/2023 at 12:38 AM, SlateSloan.3654 said:

@Josh Davis.7865

So we where supposed to get another beta "early" this year.

Its now mid of february. In about 5 weeks its already spring.

I dont consider this "early".

What happens with alliances? No word in studio update and roadmap.

Dropped the project again without telling?

Shhh . . .

You're interrupting my time listening to the newly discovered corner stone crickets.

Yours truly,
Diku

Credibility requires critical insight & time.
#MyEoDPurchaseComingSoon
#AlliancesWhen
#RoadMapWhen

Edited February 17, 2023 by Diku.2546