Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Heal-Scourge, but Weaver


Hedonismbot.3697

Recommended Posts

Question: Can weaver adapt a build which would make it akin to plaguedoctor-scourges?

Disclaimer: I do realize that I am more so concerned with whether or not it could, than whether or not it should. Probably not, but there are some similarities to heal-scourge which could be built upon from anet.

The basic premise is:

Weavers gain healing power when attuned to water and give barrier to allies on dual-skill usage + When traited, attuning to water applies healing mist and healing ripple + When traited, attuning to earth applies stability and barrier (but... only for yourself, yet) = steady heals and barrier, perma 1stack of stability with 100% boondoration. (Water field blast combos, water elemental, revive glyph, and water signet are not exclusive to weaver.)

So technically, without major changes, a water+earth weaver could be patched into the game, if they make earth's embrace's barrier go party wide.

The real question is, how it actually holds up to heal-scourge. Plaguedoctor scourges deal significant dps. Not sure if weaver can reach that too. Plus, without arcane trait line, protection and to a lesser extent regeneration are not as easy to come by; unless I'm missing something.  So, in summary, no, it's not really there yet and would require similar dps to healscourge to be considered. Alternatively, it would have to provide more defensive boons. Since boon-support is tempest's and maybe even catalyst's thing, and barrier is something weavers get access too, I find a healing+barrier+dps-weaver to be more realistic. There is room for experimentation with stats, runes, and weapons I think...

Curious to hear what all'y'all think. Can weaver adapt a "smoothing your group content"-build? Keeping everyone alive and well, while contributing (hopefully significantly) to killing the thing?

 

Personal note: cleansing fire does not apply to allies but would be a lot cooler if it did

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Hedonismbot.3697 said:

Question: Can weaver adapt a build which would make it akin to plaguedoctor-scourges?

I hate to be blunt but, no it is not , your only source of barrier only comes from Dual Strikes and the traits don't work well with each other most of weaver traits are dps focused or self buffs.

 

Your water sword skills only heal up to 3 people not 5. (Probably the only skill in the entire game that affects 3 people only), that means in fractals you're not even healing your full party just you+2 party members.

 

Lack of boons everywhere no alac, no quick, not even 25 stacks of might, which tempest can easily give.

 

The idea looks pretty on paper but  It lacks consistency and purpose , the damage on viper Weaver is already laughable so going Plaguedoctor not only will cripple your dps but it will also be pointless since you don't even have tools to buff the group why would you want Concentration if you don't have skills that buff.

 

Hell even HealquickCatalyst seems good when you compare it to Healer Weaver

 

Edited by keykey.9182
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, keykey.9182 said:

I hate to be blunt but, no it is not , your only source of barrier only comes from Dual Strikes and the traits don't work well with each other most of weaver traits are dps focused or self buffs.

 

Your water sword skills only heal up to 3 people not 5. (Probably the only skill in the entire game that affects 3 people only), that means in fractals you're not even healing your full party just you+2 party members.

 

Lack of boons everywhere no alac, no quick, not even 25 stacks of might, which tempest can easily give.

 

The idea looks pretty on paper but  It lacks consistency and purpose , the damage on viper Weaver is already laughable so going Plaguedoctor not only will cripple your dps but it will also be pointless since you don't even have tools to buff the group why would you want Concentration if you don't have skills that buff.

 

Hell even HealquickCatalyst seems good when you compare it to Healer Weaver

 

Aye, you're right. Killing things faster makes for a safer run anyways. The barrier uptime would also only be a thing IF they changed the earthline trait to allies instead of self. Weapon choice is a good point too.

I remain however curious if anet will improve upon some traits here and maybe some skills there, so that in the end you'd end up with a build that, granted, wont top any dmg charts, but acts like a safety net, similar to what heal scourge does. I wouldnt compare it to tempest or catalyst, but to the necro. I don't think scourge provides that many boons. But it revives and removes boons, and gives out barrier to soften the blows. And maybe weaver could become something that mimicks that. But its just not there yet...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Honestly, those 2 e-specs can't really compare.

Scourge will focus on preventing the incoming damage through barrier while weaver's focus is on resplenishing lost health points.

Weaver's healing lean heavily on water attunment which don't really provide much damaging condition output while scourge's barrier output don't restrict him in term of the kind of damage used. Worse, water attunment tend to be a low strike damage output attunment.

An Elementalist condibuild can benefit from healing power but mostly for self sustain. On another hand, as a dedicated healer, elementalist should probably stay away from conditions damage.

  • Like 1
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Honestly, those 2 e-specs can't really compare.

Scourge will focus on preventing the incoming damage through barrier while weaver's focus is on resplenishing lost health points.

Weaver's healing lean heavily on water attunment which don't really provide much damaging condition output while scourge's barrier output don't restrict him in term of the kind of damage used. Worse, water attunment tend to be a low strike damage output attunment.

An Elementalist condibuild can benefit from healing power but mostly for self sustain. On another hand, as a dedicated healer, elementalist should probably stay away from conditions damage.

Mhm, I agree on water being awkward for damage. What I like about elementalist is that no one trait line is completly for damage only and devoid of support, also to its detriment. You would indeed go out of your way to mimick scourge, a spec that is just running different gear and maybe one or two diffrent traits, whereas weaver would have to dedicate two entire traitlines for its base support play (applying barrier, healing, stability on swap). Then again, it doesnt have to be top tier in order to be a viable presence in high pressure pve environments, no? I feel that the value of "nobody dies today" is still understated when it comes to more challenging content.

And there is always fire attunement for you to weave in. So you could cycle between earth-water-earth-fire-earth-water-etc

Or, do you think it would be better to forego water, and concentrate only on earth for the barrier? I'll reiterate this is only IF they change earths embrace to 5targets in pve. This would open up arcane for instance...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In its current state there's no real way to provide good quality support as Weaver. The class isn't really designed to do so anyways. If you want to slot in just a lillbit extra support/self sustain you could always go fresh air weaver. You can cycle through all 4 elements (and hit their dual attack for barrier support) and get access to cleansing wave without breaking your rotation. It aint much, but it should be 100hps on cleansing wave and ~100 barrier/sec. (Or abit more if you take cele over bers)

Edited by the krytan assassin.9235
Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Hedonismbot.3697 said:

Or, do you think it would be better to forego water, and concentrate only on earth for the barrier? I'll reiterate this is only IF they change earths embrace to 5targets in pve. This would open up arcane for instance...

Even with earth embrace providing barrier to up to 5 targets, I don't think that weaver would be able to compete against a scourge. You'd simply lack barrier burst, healing power scaling on earth embrace, coverage and range.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You got me there

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

healing power scaling on earth embrace

The scaling difference on earths embrace being 0.75 vs. sand cascade being 2.0 is a pretty significant one. even desert empowerment has 1.0... I demand justice for the earth-traitline!

Coverange and range should be fine, I think scourges are also somewhat close range in their application. The only burst-y thing weaver would provide is healing after the fact.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

eles version of the full heal scourge build is the over-healing water-camping staff temp (which now has access to stab and aegis)

ele can somewhat mimic the dps scourge + blood magic for ressing with any dps staff build (preferably not weaver) + arcane. it cant pull bodies, however

anything in between is not something ele and weaver in particular can really do. while a plaguedoctor scourge can pump barrier, what ele does instead is pump prot - which if you arent already aware, is something necro currently struggles to do. the difference between prot and no-prot is very noticeable, but is usually already covered in (properly organised) groups anyway

so in between the balance philosophy of “holes in roles” and reiterating what the krytan assassin says about playing to a builds/classes strengths, barrier support just isnt something that ele does

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

ele can somewhat mimic the dps scourge + blood magic for ressing with any dps staff build (preferably not weaver) + arcane. it cant pull bodies, however

This is a good point, I think. Currently Arcane is the "I support my team while doing my thing" Trait-Line.

Attuning to Earth already gives Stability to the group, and kind of reinforces my interest in Earth becoming a Trait Line worthy of taking about above its Signet and Condi synergy. Less on healing after the fact side of things and more on the proactive side...

The strength of groupwide protection you're pointing out is also a good one. My original idea might have been to close to the visually accessible support feeling of having your team topped up with that nice barrier blanket. Earth remains interesting to me, however. Builds not being able to actively respond to mechanics, being static so to speak, is a current point of criticism in general, and maybe attuning to Earth for Barrier and Stability is something that could be patched in rather easily.

 

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Earth attunment/traitline are theoretically very interesting but not that great in practice. The true issue is that such situation is frustrating for the player.

Your idea of getting a scourge-like build for weaver with the support of earth traitline is a perfect example of why it's frustrating for the player.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The earth traitline is one of the worst traitlines ever designed by Anet. Only 2/12 traits offer decent condi dps boost, 2/12 offer some sort of group support and rest is all self defence crap. 

Since there's are basically no condi traits outside of Fire/earth/Espec its still the best traitline for condi.

For support this is an entirely different story. Water, arcane, Tempest and catalyst all offer some great support traits. 

The only support earth currently offers is Prot on aura share and stability on attune. 

For Prot on aurashare: Weaver hasn't got a viable way to aurashare, catalyst and Tempest already got an easy >100% Prot uptime and even arcane traitline can provide permanent party Prot. 

So the only reason to trait into earth is a 2-4 second stability on earth attunement swap (depending on the amount of concentration you slot in. It doesnt activate upon fully attuning so you'll get a 25-50% uptime at best if you continuously swap in/out of earth on cooldown which doesn't really offer you any meaningful support/dmge skills. At the same time a guardian can have 20/40% uptime on stability (and resolution by only using "Stand Your Ground' on cooldown. 

 

Just focus on playing towards the class/especs strength. Tempest provides the best possible heal ingame by a mile atm (it definitely also has some flaws though). There's no way that Catalyst/Weaver/core can compare in any sort of way with heal Tempest atm. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/14/2022 at 3:17 AM, JPUlisses.8756 said:

What weaver should be > heal/support while doing dps rotation

This. I mean, technically you can already do this. It has been pointed out, that with arcane you can provide protection for your subgroup. Soothing mist if you trait water. But this is where elementalist plays by “the rules” again, as you lose out on significant damage traits. And water and earth don’t really mesh all that well anyway, if you want to contribute to dps. Water provides conditional 20% strike dmg, earth is utility and defence only, and most of it is not for allies an waywith a touch of condi bleeding… 

So, trait-wise, it seems it’s either water OR earth. 

Stat-wise I presume celestial would work… Maybe with some grieving or vipers mixed in.

Not sure if sword would be the best weapon too.. maybe the new scepter? Staff?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unless somehow Arenanet makes the Elemental Refreshment barrier output insane on dual attacks through the barrier scaling or otherwise, weaver will continue to be primarily a DPS spec as the only real support you have is arcane boon output along with healing from weapon skills and the water traitline (soothing mist and heal on swap to water). Right now Elemental Refreshment scales at 523+0.2875*healing power. In addition, because you can't output alacrity or quickness it is unlikely to gain acceptance as a full support and remain unused in comparison to something akin to a plaguedoctor scourge which is 27K DPS or something similar such as the barrier specter which is ~35K DPS I believe.

To top it off on weavers when you swap from fire attunement then if you run Pyromancer's Puissance you lose 10 might. Therefore, a support weaver is probably going water+arcane and camping staff for healing since the support offered by offhand focus and offhand dagger pales in comparison to warhorn.

In my opinion, I'd rather Arenanet remove the AoE heal (330+0.1*healing power) on sword similar to what was done on scepter and bump up the power coefficients overall. The scaling on it is 0.1 which is quite abysmal when you consider the scaling on guardian mace (367+0.5*healing power), revenant staff (394+0.3*healing power), or barrier from mechanist mace (260+0.29*healing power). This would penalize DPS weavers less if they need to swap to water briefly to resustain in PVE.

Edited by Infusion.7149
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Unless somehow Arenanet makes the Elemental Refreshment barrier output insane on dual attacks through the barrier scaling or otherwise, weaver will continue to be primarily a DPS spec as the only real support you have is arcane boon output along with healing from weapon skills and the water traitline (soothing mist and heal on swap to water). Right now Elemental Refreshment scales at 523+0.2875*healing power. In addition, because you can't output alacrity or quickness it is unlikely to gain acceptance as a full support and remain unused in comparison to something akin to a plaguedoctor scourge which is 27K DPS or something similar such as the barrier specter which is ~35K DPS I believe.

To top it off on weavers when you swap from fire attunement then if you run Pyromancer's Puissance you lose 10 might. Therefore, a support weaver is probably going water+arcane and camping staff for healing since the support offered by offhand focus and offhand dagger pales in comparison to warhorn.

In my opinion, I'd rather Arenanet remove the AoE heal (330+0.1*healing power) on sword similar to what was done on scepter and bump up the power coefficients overall. The scaling on it is 0.1 which is quite abysmal when you consider the scaling on guardian mace (367+0.5*healing power), revenant staff (394+0.3*healing power), or barrier from mechanist mace (260+0.29*healing power). This would penalize DPS weavers less if they need to swap to water briefly to resustain in PVE.

this could work

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...