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Rev changes November 29th patch


Buran.3796

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Revenant

Vindicator has continued to be a powerful force in PvP after the most recent set of changes, and we're making a few additional reductions in this update. We see vindicator as doing a bit too much damage when investing heavily in defensive traits, so we've shaved down a few skills to create more of a decision point between damage and defense. We've also reduced the stability from Reaver's Rage and removed the ability to dodge while immobilized with the goal of making vindicator slightly easier to bring down.

The last set of changes didn't have quite enough impact on condition-based revenant builds in PvP, and we're following up with a few more adjustments to improve their damage output and free up a bit more energy while in Legendary Demon Stance.

We've focused on improving damage builds for both herald and vindicator in PvE, improving the potency of sword off hand, Legendary Assassin Stance and Legendary Dragon Stance, and the Luxon side of Legendary Alliance Stance.

Core

  • Shackling Wave (PvE only): Increased power coefficient of initial strike from 1.0 to 1.2. Increased power coefficient of additional strikes from 0.35 to 0.4.
  • Deathstrike (PvE only): Increased power coefficient of initial strike from 0.33 to 0.45. Increased power coefficient of final strike from 2.0 to 2.67.
  • Impossible Odds: Increased power coefficient on secondary strikes from 0.55 to 0.65 in PvE only.
  • Jade Winds: Increased power coefficient from 1.5 to 3.0 in PvE only.
  • Seething Malice: Increased condition damage from 120 to 240 in PvP only.
  • Banish Enchantment: Reduced energy cost from 30 to 25 in PvP only.
  • Call to Anguish: Reduced energy cost from 30 to 25 in PvP only.
  • Rising Tide: Reduced health threshold from 90% to 75% in PvE only.

Herald

  • Elemental Blast: Reduced cooldown from 15 seconds to 12 seconds in PvE only.
  • Burst of Strength (PvE only): Reduced cooldown from 15 seconds to 12 seconds. Increased effect duration from 5 seconds to 10 seconds. Reduced damage bonus from 25% to 15%. Damage bonus now applies to condition damage as well as strike damage.
  • Chaotic Release: Increased power coefficient from 2.0 to 4.0 in PvE only.

Vindicator

  • Vindicators can no longer dodge while immobilized.
  • Spear of Archemorus: Reduced range from 2,000 to 1,200. Increased power coefficient from 3.5 to 5.0 in PvE only. Increased torment duration from 5 seconds to 8 seconds in PvE only.
  • Scavenger Burst: Adjusted burning from one stack for 8 seconds to two stacks for 5 seconds in PvE only. Endurance gain increased from 5 per target to 20 per target in PvE only. Energy cost reduced from 20 to 15 in PvE only. Reduced power coefficient from 1.55 to 1.4 in PvP only.
  • Tree Song: Energy cost reduced from 20 to 15 in PvE only.
  • Battle Dance: Energy cost reduced from 20 to 15 in PvE only.
  • Nomad's Advance: Energy cost reduced from 20 to 15 in PvE only. Reduced power coefficient from 2.3 to 2.1 in PvP only.
  • Reaver's Rage (PvP only): Reduced power coefficient from 1.25 to 1.0. Reduced stability duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds. Reduced daze duration from 1.5 seconds to 1 second.

 

 

 

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Not very consequential from a competitive perspective. I had high hopes for some Hammer changes and Vindicator rework. The double dodge changed so much about the spec that there needs some changes to compensate. It basically feels that the Master traits and and Energy Meld are dead traits/abilities.

Would love to see the Mallyx energy reduction on Banish Enchantment brought to WvW. 30 is too much and 20 was almost spammable. 25 seems like a nice balance for both competitive modes. Bring the condition damage increase to Seething Malice in WvW as well 🙂

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So they're still just doing number tweaking for Vindicator. I've given up any hope that they'll finish designing the spec 😞 Vindicator still feels as half-baked as it was in the Beta espec previews. Feels bad, man.

I'm amazed the middle traits and Energy Meld aren't being reworked. They're such dead weight on the spec right now. Still no internal synergy between Saint Viktor and Archemorous. No interaction between them in the traits or the skills.

Edited by Anonynja.3172
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I don't understand the gripes about Vindicator, before the 2 dodge change I hated it just as much as I hate playing competitive mode mirage. I hate it far less now since it feels at least on par with herald/renegade. Unlike renegade I don't get heavily penalized for dodging either.

The main thing here is that sword damage was increased which means power herald will be slightly better in terms of as quickness support spec.

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Kinda inconsequential changes for me as a WvW player, but I'm generally happy with the patch as a whole. Damage boosts for PvE are nice.

I think restricting dodges while immobilized is fair for Vindicator, especially considering it has ample access to resistance and other ways of stopping damage while immobilized. I think the Spear range could have been reduced to 1500 rather than 1200 to sort of mirror Trueshot's design intention of providing extra range due to it being immobile. 

45 minutes ago, Jaykay.9641 said:

Would love to see the Mallyx energy reduction on Banish Enchantment brought to WvW. 30 is too much and 20 was almost spammable. 25 seems like a nice balance for both competitive modes. Bring the condition damage increase to Seething Malice in WvW as well 🙂

 

I think that'd be a fair compromise.

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27 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

I think restricting dodges while immobilized is fair for Vindicator, especially considering it has ample access to resistance and other ways of stopping damage while immobilized.

  I known that isn't exactly the meta (or even if you're taliking about roaming or zerging) but running Devastation: Agressive Agility in a greatsword/swords Shiro/Alliance build makes Vindi immune to immobilizations.

   I find weird the Herald buffs in PvE due both Renegade and Herald are already superior to Vindi at that game mode. Is also strange that the devs keep talking about how in PvP Vindi has too much sustain for the damage it deals an want to move it to more aggressive builds but instead of nerfing susatain (well, the the no jump under immob kinda is..) the keep reducing Archemorus damage...

   Is like: instead of bringing up a single legend with a clear goal (delivering a good PvE power damage with cleave) they came up with a Frankenstein's monster with x2 the skills, half of them being offensive, half being support, shared enegy (also extremely hard to balance), an a bit of condi damage out of nowhere which doesn't synergizes at all. Is anyone really playing support Vindi in any game mode at all? No? Then why keep fumbling around in PvE buffing Vicky instead of making Archy better? 

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6 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

  I known that isn't exactly the meta (or even if you're taliking about roaming or zerging) but running Devastation: Agressive Agility in a greatsword/swords Shiro/Alliance build makes Vindi immune to immobilizations.

Yeah I'm a huge fan of Aggressive Agility in WvW. Can't tell you how many times that trait has saved me. 

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37 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

Yeah I'm a huge fan of Aggressive Agility in WvW. Can't tell you how many times that trait has saved me. 


So often people choose Battle Scarred, which is pretty weak. Aggressive agility is so good in certain matchups, especially when you run off hand sword and/or alliance legend. 

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The Alliance buffs are nice and probably enough to make it worth taking over Jalis for instanced PvE; I just wish there was a reason to use both Legends. It feels so bad swapping them on a shared Energy pool and 10s CD. There are deeper changes I'd ideally like, but in terms of what is viable short-term:

 

(1) Revert the last round of changes to the dodge and its traits; as fun as it is the balance issues were not worth it

 

(2) Make Energy Meld increase your Energy regeneration by 100% for 5s with 20s cooldown

 

(3) Make Alliance Tactics have 3s cooldown and give 2s Aegis and 2s Stun

 

P.S. I should clarify that the Alliance Tactics effect should come via Balance In Discord instead of Healing and Regeneration, and have a 20s cooldown; I don't expect to have 50% Aegis and 66% Stun uptime...

Edited by Elessaria.9142
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Taking away the ability to dodge when immobilized is a nail hammered in a coffin for Vindicator support in WvW. Vindicator support are very vulnerable  to cc. I would be fine with this update, but they're going to remove stability from Reaver's Rage?! That's literally the only skill that BARELY keeps me alive. You already removed the ability to dodge cc, now you're doing this? There's literally no need for this. The dodge gets canceled when cc'd already. This is practically making Vindicator support a punching bag. They already killed vindicator support in WvW to the point they won't get accepted in zergs. In PvP, it's reasonable, but in WvW and PvE is honestly just unacceptable. I lost hope in the last 2 patches, but after watching the stream, I understand their goal and what they're trying to achieve. As of now, you're not gonna make any progress with this poor judgement.

None of these issues would have happened if the second dodge wasn't added. It was already fine with one dodge because it wasn't too powerful, but it was viable. You're just making it unviable.

Now in terms of PvE, I'm glad Vindicator got buffed, I also am glad they're focusing on bringing Mallyx back to PvE, PvP and hopefully WvW. Although Vindicator got a nice buff, Vindicator support is still not going to be wanted until they provide actual good utility which is what I'm hoping for in the future.

Edited by Daoyun.3157
adding pve opinions
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I don't get why they're bringing down Range. Nerfing both Archemorus and Deadeye extended range to 1200. This is just homogenization for no reason.

Archemorus range at 2000 was the one interesting thing about the skill. Now it's just a random high powered 1200 true shot type attack. Lame. Absolutely lame change. This reduces the fun of that skill a ton since it had nothing else interesting going for it.

The other changes are fine and the revert of Burst of Strength/Elemental Blast CDs is excellent

Edited by LucianTheAngelic.7054
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1 hour ago, Daoyun.3157 said:

Taking away the ability to dodge when immobilized is a nail hammered in a coffin for Vindicator support in WvW. Vindicator support are very vulnerable  to cc. I would be fine with this update, but they're going to remove stability from Reaver's Rage?! That's literally the only skill that BARELY keeps me alive. You already removed the ability to dodge cc, now you're doing this? There's literally no need for this. The dodge gets canceled when cc'd already. This is practically making Vindicator support a punching bag. They already killed vindicator support in WvW to the point they won't get accepted in zergs. In PvP, it's reasonable, but in WvW and PvE is honestly just unacceptable. I lost hope in the last 2 patches, but after watching the stream, I understand their goal and what they're trying to achieve. As of now, you're not gonna make any progress with this poor judgement.

None of these issues would have happened if the second dodge wasn't added. It was already fine with one dodge because it wasn't too powerful, but it was viable. You're just making it unviable.

Now in terms of PvE, I'm glad Vindicator got buffed, I also am glad they're focusing on bringing Mallyx back to PvE, PvP and hopefully WvW. Although Vindicator got a nice buff, Vindicator support is still not going to be wanted until they provide actual good utility which is what I'm hoping for in the future.

I mean, I don’t know who you are running with in WvW, but I couldn’t disagree with you more tbh. I think removing vindi dodge on immobilise is actually pretty fair. You have three stun breaks. One with built in stab, one on the same bar as basically un-stripable stab, and 50% damage reduction. 
i also have no idea why you think vindi isn’t acceptable in Zergs. Have you actually looked at the numbers before stating any of this? I certainly have, I’ve spent the past 2 weeks going through them literally every day after every WvW raid I do. Is vindi cleanse the strongest? Nope, no it’s not, not gonna lie to you. We can’t keep up with any tempest who knows what they are doing. On healing- nothing else cones near us. Literally no other class is even in the same league as vindi for healing in WvW right now. I seriously encourage you to look at some results for this as the gap here is staggering. Right now, very very skilled scrappers are doing less than a quarter of the healing I output as an average support vindi player. I will do roughly 60-70% of their cleanse, maybe a little less without super try-harding. Oh, and that insane healing is pumping out barrier all the kitten time. You pump out barrier non stop. With 3 aoe 5-man stunbreaks. 
Again, I’m really not trying to argue with you here, I’m just genuinely confused about what you are saying as from my point of view it’s the complete opposite.

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I want to say that blaming the vindicator for having 2 dodges is the source of all the problems is not true because long before having 2 dodges it has been nerfed several times on that. And the real problem is the stamina traits and the fact that they don't know what they want to do with the vindicator it was made for the cantha theme but in the end that's the biggest problem with making a hybrid class.

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From a WvW Vindicator perspective


Spear of Archemorus:
The 2000 range was the best reason to use the spear in the first place as it was good for an opening and also the most interesting thing about it. There was no reason to change that. (it doesn't hit most of the time anyway - how about changing that?)

Dodge:
The ability to dodge while immobilized wasn't too powerfull, nor did it seem unfair to be able to (you still cannot move and remain immobilized). This change can be accepted even if it seems unnecessary, especially considering the bugs the dodge still has since the first beta.

Overall, I still don't understand how anyone could change a spec so drastically without considering the consequences and still try to fix everything in detail afterwards when the foundation needs an overhaul. This specialization was designed for a single dodge, all the changes that have become necessary since the introduction of the two dodges have rendered large parts pointless and there doesn't seem to be any intention of changing this in the near future. However, this should be a top priority as any changes until then could mean an unnecessary amount of work.

 

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3 hours ago, VladTepes.7042 said:

 This specialization was designed for a single dodge, all the changes that have become necessary since the introduction of the two dodges have rendered large parts pointless and there doesn't seem to be any intention of changing this in the near future. However, this should be a top priority as any changes until then could mean an unnecessary amount of work.

     The main objection I have against the patch is that they are dealing with Vindicator overperforming in PvP/WvW while buffing power Herald in PvE and condi core Rev/Herald in PvP (this for second, unsuccessful time in a row) , whereas  what Rev players asked from EoD was a new power spec for PvE.

   So: no one is asking for PvP buffs and no one is asking for Herald PvE buffs, yet they insist in pushing that while Vindi remains below 1% usage in instanced content...

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Buffs are welcome, but I'm super confused abount Vindicator.

From the beginning I felt like we're not sure about what it's supposed to be.  (PvE)
If it was meant to be a pure power dps spec, why making Saint Viktor like this?
If they really wanted to put a double legend and add some ritualist flavor why not focusing on lighting damage or damage buffs akin to gw1 ritualist?

Also Archemorus is not nearly powerful enough to keep the spec floating on its own.

 

If they wanted this to be a hybrid spec, it's failing hard.

Viktor is a healing legend which isn't really supported enough by traits and lacks key supportive boons.
Also unless you never swap to Archemous at all, imagine needing a Vikor skill while being in the other legend. By the time you double swap it's too late, you can never play reactively like that.

Also what's the point of gs in a hybrid build? Rev doesn't even have other real supportive weapons

 

I feel like this spec really need a complete reset and be done almost from scratch
 

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Rev overall has problems, from the core mecanic being a mix of energy and cd, lacking weapon options, to elites being overall flawed in design, herald has all upkeep skills, even the mecanic skill is an upkeep wich i personaly think is a poor design, it makes the legend pretty plain i think, renegade is good, but the summons, or wells, first can die, wich in modes like wvw is a huge flaw, next, 2 of the wells depend on alies making use of the effects, and on some places the combo of a well that requires alies and can die is a bit too much of a punishment, also renegade alacrity is fully based on a one trait one skill use, with nothing else on the kit that makes sinergy nor has nothing to do with the elite, also the ever troublesome huge hitbox requirement on bombardment, and finaly vindi, it was created to work around a one dodge mecanic, but the huge problem is that the game itself is based around 2 dodges, also this game fights are usually fast paced, so a slow nuke dodge means you overall loose dmg, survivavility and you get a too slow pace in a combat, using energy spending skills to recarge the dodge coould have worked on other elites, but thr problem is that the skills ended up giving endurance, doing dmg, burning, cleansing, or at least 3 things at the same time, wich ends up making all 3 aspects of the skill pretty subpar, paired with the huge costs rev skills have overall we end up loosing more than we win, now that they gave the 2 dodge, they need to start deleting endurance traits and skills, instead of 5 skills and traits that give 5 endurance each, make a trait that hives back 25 endurance when you affect a target with a dodge, and use the other 2 slots for better legend focused stuff, next buff arche and vick, instead of endurance you could make a trait so certain aliance skills give alac, scavenger burst, vick elite, etc, and we would get both a suport trait, and a dodge "meme" trait, then make one that increases dmg done by gs or something, or you could make a trait like, "each time you swap legends/weapons, you get a 7% dmg /healing increase" so you actualy want to swap weapons  and use as many swaps as possible, make the duration 5 secs so you need to swap off cd or something and therw you have it.

The huge problem on rev is that it punishes you by playing it, you need to learn how to play around the energy and cd, not to be rewarded, but to not be punished instead, each elite spec is stuffed with things in an attempt to be hibrid or a jack of all trades, but it ends up being a mess that we need to solve ourselves, and also the problem of most fixes being number changes, when the thing rev needs the most is a mecanic and life cuality rework

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31 minutes ago, Bish.8627 said:

Quite enjoy Vindicator open PvE, swapping legends, dodging, etc. 

   I enjoy it but is significantly worse than Herald or Renegade if the foeas are challenging. A simple example: go Drizzlewood and face a couple of groups with 5 veteran charrs (usually each one has a thief with blinds, a engineer with knockbacks, some warriors... ), the numbers you proc at the begining are fun, but after a few interrupts you end bodied, because the spec has 0 native cc to set the damage. Meanwhile, condi Herald casts axe #5, Chaotic Release, Elemental Blast, swap to Mallyx > Call to Anguish > Embrace the Darkness and voila!, either everything is dead or you already out of cooldown to repeat it again. Renegade isn't as tanky, but has the advantage of range to deal with foes.

   Vindi is great vs regular enemies with not much threat or single bosses with well telegraphed attacks, but vs crowds or bosses which are very nimble or rich in cc is way worse. Is a kamikaze gameplay style. Love the mobility and self buff ability, but if I really want the task to be done in a single attempt is not my main choice.

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