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ANet Why? Deadeye Feedback Upcoming November 29th Patch


Holly.8190

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So I am relatively new to maining Rifle Deadeye only been at it about 3 months, it is the first class that I am enjoying in Fractals(played Scrapper and Bladesworn previously) and I have only done a few raids with it (Mostly Pylons but some others like VG) so take my feedback with a grain of salt I guess. 

 

1. The Range Nerf? Why? This is incredibly stupid IMO, What's the point of being a Sniper if Rangers and Dragonhunters can out range you with Longbows and Mechs are gonna AA you to death at the same range. If anything I would buff the Range when kneeling at least in PVE, Wont make a difference in Instanced content but would add to the RP for Open world and story.

 

2. Moving at 25% speed when kneeled, WHAT!!!!! This has never felt like a problem to me, I kneel and become immobile to deal more damage. Moving that slowly is not gonna get me out of AOE any quicker then just dodging. Just keep the root, it adds to the identity and in my experience the better I have gotten at the class the less if a hindrance it is. If you want deadeye to be mobile go all in and remove kneel and let me be like a LB Ranger or Don't remove kneel and let me have the full Deadeye experience, don't half kitten it cos its the worst possible option.

 

3. 2 INI to Kneel, it should be free if anything. All it does it make repositioning more punishing, its almost like they want you to RP walk out of danger. 

 

4. Pierce \o/ but only on Deaths Judgement? Why? If my 3 round burst doesn't pierce then what's the point of DJ? I need malice to make it worthwhile and to activate my maleficent seven otherwise i am wasting ini to get a lesser DJ.

 

5. And what was up with the change to Sniper Cover? I never felt it needed a change, outside of certain Open world encounters I have never even used it. If you want a shadowstep on Rifle then just make it like Shortbow 5 cos it seems pointless as it was shown in stream.

 

Any Positives? They Buffed Dagger so yeah that's nice, guess they want D/D Deadeye to be the Meta. 

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Never been angrier about a change before.  I dont care if i cant move when kneeled.Never been a damned issue!
and sure, nerf the range ON THE SNIPER Spec. HOW about the “balance team” actually asks players what they need and doesnt just decide garbage willy nilly with no base?!

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I can explain the piercing Death's Judgement.  Spotter's Shot pierces while immobilizing foes.  A common strategy against a group of enemies is to mark the one in the rear, and then proceed to use Spotter's Shot to lock all of them in place while doing surprisingly high damage to the group.  The problem it creates, though, is that all of the mooks will body block DJ, preventing the DE from using M7 to maintain the lock and the damage.

It's not a common strat.  The only place I would regularly do it was the escort for W3.  It works well in the overworld, though, and I'm sure with good positioning it would work well in certain fractals, too.  

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have could have given deadeye no treatment at all bit increase the range while kneeling to 1700 or even 2000 in PvE and everybody would be happy. instead they are messing around with dagger aa coefficients while imo the numbers are already ok, the issue is in the design as d3 and d4 have no clear purpose and treat d/d as a hybrid weapon set. which makes d/d basically hitting two buttons 5 & 1 and later on even just one button 2. 

Even if that would be the best dps rotation in the game by double the amount of the second - this is boring guys cmon


Also again no changes to the issues of core thief, i mean has anet forgotten that you can have no elite spec active? I really would like to see a change in the standard F2. 

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The new walk/kneel look so weird to me and i don't understand the point. They could had rework sniper cover to give a short shadowstep, a roll (without evade effect) or just more energy regen on kneel to use dodge for mouvement (reduce effect in pvp) to give more mobility.

The range nerf.... mhm ok ? it's not a big deal imo and hitting at 1200+ was a bit messy because of the projectile velocity not high enough. They say too on the stream that was "an opportunity" so I guess longbow ranger will be next ?

DJ piercing top QoL nothing to say. Even if it's hit for 1 damage in PVP on unmarked piercing target it's still a top change. They need to buff the projectile velocity of this skill too to be more reliable.

Sniper cover change look good too with death advance but why ? it's doesn't feel required 

Edited by Jumpel.3972
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What I don't understand is why is DE advertised as this sniper/rifle master that doesn't make any good use of a rifle and actually performs better with other weapons.....

 

All Snowcrows aside - you know DE with a rifle in pve isn't really what you expected before you tried it...

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11 hours ago, Holly.8190 said:

2 INI to Kneel, it should be free if anything. All it does it make repositioning more punishing, its almost like they want you to RP walk out of danger.

I always figured the animation time was supposed to be the true cost of Kneeling. Guess Anet forgot. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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 If anything Deadeye should be getting LONGER RANGE with the rifle! I only play this spec because gw2 is where I can play as a sniper in a fantasy setting. How the heck am I supposed to play a sniper if I have to be up close to all my targets? Also costing 2 ini to kneel is another deathblow to my main. Seriously how do they even come up with such terrible "balance changes" in the first place. If they kill Deadeye I'm probs going to just drop gw2 as my game of choice💢💢💢 

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3 minutes ago, Shaeli.2573 said:

What exactly is the point of even having kneel if you don't even gain a range advantage?  this is truly the worst possible change you could make to deadeye

It's to make your #3 skill do okay DPS instead of garbo DPS. Idk why that requires so much investment but that's the plan I guess.

Edited by ASP.8093
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12 hours ago, Maria Murtor.7253 said:

Kneel was never a issue for me. Reading these planned changes makes me really – and I mean: really – think, that ArenaNet hates the Thief profession. They should rather INCREASE the range of a Sniper while using Kneel, so it matches the Longbow instead of reducing it.

They should just reduce max longbow range.

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Anet has poo poo'd on thieves for years and years. Split sword 3, gave us preparations, removed all of our stealth triggers, drastically increased initiative cost while nerfing damage and over, and over and over. Still haven't fixed line of sight issues. Still haven't fixed projectile tracking on numerous skills. I literally can't name all of the things. I only have one character, 7.5k hours, 17k ranked spvp games, 30k achievement points. It's always just this. Wtf balance team. 

Edited by Voraxen.2035
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Unfortunately a case of "be careful what you wish for".

Giving deadeye the ability to move while kneeling (at reduced speed) has been frequently requested here on the forum (and the warrior forum has been requesting the same for dragon trigger).

Now they are giving in and bringing that to deadeye, but it comes at a cost. Because anet is very afraid of having a sniper spec with the thief toolkit, since it is packed with gap openers.

Personally, I hope they completely pull this change. Keep the deadeye rooted while kneeling, keep the increased range. This change is ruining the sniper fantasy on multiple levels.

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I've calmed down a bit now, but i am still disappointed, so thres a more indepth reason i hate this change:

 

I made my DE specifically because of the rifle and the sniping ability. There was no other reasoning for me there. I loved it that way and i want to keep it that way. Anets current proposed changes just make me want to delete this character i actually absolutely love becuase there is no other way i want to play him as.

 

I play my characters for lore reasons, and i tend to keep their wepaons and spec the same for long times. Beig forced to change them takes away the joy from playing them. I know i am in the minority in this regard, but here's my reason. Maybe anet understands.

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If you actually got this far in the "Balance" update preview with your brain still intact and not imploded by the "balance", you should have noticed;

Deadeye

  • Kneel: Increased initiative cost from 1 to 2. While kneeling, players can now move at a 75% reduced speed. Kneel is no longer canceled when you become disabled.
  • Skirmisher's Shot: Reduced range from 1,500 to 1,200.
  • Three Round Burst: Reduced range from 1,500 to 1,200.
  • Death's Judgement: This skill now pierces foes not targeted by Deadeye's Mark. Damage dealt to unmarked enemies is reduced. Players can now move while using this skill. Reduced range from 1,500 to 1,200.

 

There is no "PvE only" after any of these changes. That said, I have a pvp/wvw perspective.

Kneel no longer canceled when you become disabled? So let's see if I got this right. The geniuses on the "balance" team want me to use 2 initiative to willing become immobile, NOT gain any range AND stay immobilized if I get hit by a cc skill. How can anyone refuse that opportunity? While kneeling, players can now move at a 75% reduced speed. What is that suppose to mean? Is this some kind of magical, mystical mathematical equation? Pretty sure 25% of 0 is still 0 or are they changing kneel from "become immobile" to "slowly slide towards your target"?

Why not just scrap the initiative system because the "balance team" is balancing the initiative cost so you can only use 1 skill every 15 secs. Infiltrator's arrow cost 8 initiative and choking gas 7 initiative in pvp. Seems the thief is still "a source of frustrating game play, particularly in competitive PvP and WvW", to quote Josh Davis.

Edited by Bern.9613
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20 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Unfortunately a case of "be careful what you wish for".

Giving deadeye the ability to move while kneeling (at reduced speed) has been frequently requested here on the forum (and the warrior forum has been requesting the same for dragon trigger).

Now they are giving in and bringing that to deadeye, but it comes at a cost. Because anet is very afraid of having a sniper spec with the thief toolkit, since it is packed with gap openers.

Personally, I hope they completely pull this change. Keep the deadeye rooted while kneeling, keep the increased range. This change is ruining the sniper fantasy on multiple levels.

I haven't seen anyone request the ability to move while kneeling on the forums. The most common complaint is that the kneel mechanic feels clunky.

 

And its not hard to figure out why. Its not the kneeling is the problem its that you have to also remember to jam a friggin key in order to spend half a second to stand before you can move. Anything that jumps on your face will murder you for it.

 

Most people's instincts would be to immediately press a movement key to get out of the way. Which is called "expected behavior". This is something most players got used to in a game where movement matters. You don't just randomly introduce a behavior thats completely alien to the rest of the games behavior. Thats bad UX.

Take a look at FPS behaviors. Kneeling is generally hold or you tap a button. But to stand you tend to have far more ways to get out of it that feels natural to the player and doesn't require them to do additional input in a bad situation. Running causes you to stand immediately. Jumping causes you to stand in all but stealth focused games. If the game features an advanced movement mechanic that stands you up. But the player can easily slide into a roll. Then you have release the crouch or press crouch to stand in place.

 

Using your movement keys should just make you standup if you're not intending to dodge via double tap.

Edited by Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497
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On 11/14/2022 at 11:18 AM, Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

I haven't seen anyone request the ability to move while kneeling on the forums. The most common complaint is that the kneel mechanic feels clunky.

 

And its not hard to figure out why. Its not the kneeling is the problem its that you have to also remember to jam a friggin key in order to spend half a second to stand before you can move. Anything that jumps on your face will murder you for it.

 

Most people's instincts would be to immediately press a movement key to get out of the way. Which is called "expected behavior". This is something most players got used to in a game where movement matters. You don't just randomly introduce a behavior thats completely alien to the rest of the games behavior. Thats bad UX.

Take a look at FPS behaviors. Kneeling is generally hold or you tap a button. But to stand you tend to have far more ways to get out of it that feels natural to the player and doesn't require them to do additional input in a bad situation. Running causes you to stand immediately. Jumping causes you to stand in all but stealth focused games. If the game features an advanced movement mechanic that stands you up. But the player can easily slide into a roll. Then you have release the crouch or press crouch to stand in place.

 

Using your movement keys should just make you standup if you're not intending to dodge via double tap.

The idea that pressing movement key or dodge cancels Kneel is quite interesting, but then more importantly Kneel needs to be made initiative-free, otherwise we'll just waste half a second being completely vulnerable for the animation on top of 2 initiatives.

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On 11/14/2022 at 11:18 AM, Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

I haven't seen anyone request the ability to move while kneeling on the forums. The most common complaint is that the kneel mechanic feels clunky.

 

And its not hard to figure out why. Its not the kneeling is the problem its that you have to also remember to jam a friggin key in order to spend half a second to stand before you can move. Anything that jumps on your face will murder you for it.

 

Most people's instincts would be to immediately press a movement key to get out of the way. Which is called "expected behavior". This is something most players got used to in a game where movement matters. You don't just randomly introduce a behavior thats completely alien to the rest of the games behavior. Thats bad UX.

Take a look at FPS behaviors. Kneeling is generally hold or you tap a button. But to stand you tend to have far more ways to get out of it that feels natural to the player and doesn't require them to do additional input in a bad situation. Running causes you to stand immediately. Jumping causes you to stand in all but stealth focused games. If the game features an advanced movement mechanic that stands you up. But the player can easily slide into a roll. Then you have release the crouch or press crouch to stand in place.

 

Using your movement keys should just make you standup if you're not intending to dodge via double tap.

People have asked for some way to more easily reposition. I've suggested several times over a few years for some sort of slower movement Crouch mode. It should be easier to fine tune positioning and edging out of line of sight or over a Snipers Cover without blowing cooldowns or Endurance. Edit: It should, but there's that chance that some nuance of that mechanic can make it work against a DE like going into Kneel seemed to before. 

As much as people are trying to say Kneel was fine going into, it clearly wasn't. People weren't using it if you read this forum which is where they get a lot of feedback. Now they've covered both ends of Kneel to some degree and they can see how that rolls out. 

Edited by kash.9213
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On 11/14/2022 at 1:49 PM, Bern.9613 said:

If you actually got this far in the "Balance" update preview with your brain still intact and not imploded by the "balance", you should have noticed;

Deadeye

  • Kneel: Increased initiative cost from 1 to 2. While kneeling, players can now move at a 75% reduced speed. Kneel is no longer canceled when you become disabled.
  • Skirmisher's Shot: Reduced range from 1,500 to 1,200.
  • Three Round Burst: Reduced range from 1,500 to 1,200.
  • Death's Judgement: This skill now pierces foes not targeted by Deadeye's Mark. Damage dealt to unmarked enemies is reduced. Players can now move while using this skill. Reduced range from 1,500 to 1,200.

 

There is no "PvE only" after any of these changes. That said, I have a pvp/wvw perspective.

Kneel no longer canceled when you become disabled? So let's see if I got this right. The geniuses on the "balance" team want me to use 2 initiative to willing become immobile, NOT gain any range AND stay immobilized if I get hit by a cc skill. How can anyone refuse that opportunity? While kneeling, players can now move at a 75% reduced speed. What is that suppose to mean? Is this some kind of magical, mystical mathematical equation? Pretty sure 25% of 0 is still 0 or are they changing kneel from "become immobile" to "slowly slide towards your target"?

Why not just scrap the initiative system because the "balance team" is balancing the initiative cost so you can only use 1 skill every 15 secs. Infiltrator's arrow cost 8 initiative and choking gas 7 initiative in pvp. Seems the thief is still "a source of frustrating game play, particularly in competitive PvP and WvW", to quote Josh Davis.

I actually thought (and still think) that not canceling kneel when disabled is a huge buff in WvW. But what you are saying is that now there is no way to cancel it? Not even by the player? The only option will be to move at 25% speed until the action is completed?

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I mostly play this spec in pve and hardly used the range bonus and metas where ppl are stacked you usually are way below the max range. I agree that kneeling and dodging while kneeling wasn't as good. Regarding the range I'd like to keep the extra 300 units if there is no movement. animation should change between crouching and properly kneeling and indicate if there is 300 range bonus. movement speed reduction of 75% is static and shouldn't allow buffs for movement speed.

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