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Reminder to devs that skill balance isn't everything


Riba.3271
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There was dozens of skill balance patches in past years, but WvW still has same problems where people just camp openfield and don't find objectives fun to fight in anymore.

 

Maybe it is time to start tuning objective hitpoints, siege damage, upgrade times, claim buff, supply amount, lord hitpoints? The stuff you haven't even touched since first patch of HoT? In almost 7 years...

 

So you had massive patch that changed everything, and you got it right on the first time..? Ok.. Maybe just spend a day or two to dibble some numbers in the code to see if you can return the times when commanders liked to lead all day and scouts existed while having constant action.

Edited by Riba.3271
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Hard disagree. . The team needs to work through all the changes since mid PoF. They have already made huge strides in class diversity but its still very clear that the mode is wildly unbalanced. It's going to take time for them to make adjustments as we adapt.

People need to chill. Anet has done more in the last 6 months then they did in the last few years of PoF.

It's like. Great Job Cal but not good enough, do more please. smh my head.

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17 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

There was dozens of skill balance patches in past years, but WvW still has same problems where people just camp openfield and don't find objectives fun to fight in anymore.

Maybe it is time to start tuning objective hitpoints, siege damage, upgrade times, claim buff, supply amount, lord hitpoints? The stuff you haven't even touched since first patch of HoT? In almost 7 years...

If I interpret this post correctly (we are talking about fighting in and around towers & keeps, I have to agree.

Offensive siege is now greatly favoured over defensive siege placement (e.g. ACs are useless due to nerfs and profession power creep; Oils are a death trap and canons are limited by their placement). Shield generators kind of favour the attacker over the defender.
Fighting on walls as a defender is a death trap, because LoS favours attackers and pulls are more common than at launch. Tactics for fighting inside a structure, like EWP should have e.g. two spots, so attackers can't camp the portal and kill everyone zoning in. "Bannering" the Lord wasn't that bad in the past.

First thing to fix IMHO would be to reduce the guild mission requirements for all sentry, dolly & camp related stuff to one person participating. Those player driven events would create a lot more people moving about the map with the intent to defend or capture things, creating more "potential conflict".
More experimental could be having some changes to catapults being build close to walls, like slowing recharge of the skills, when the cata is placed at its own splash damage radius => you can still place it close to a wall, but it would take e.g. 50% longer to recharge the #2 skill, meaning placing it further way from the wall means faster shooting + the defenders have a better chance to hit the cata with e.g. ballistae or ranged skills from the wall.

Edited by Gorani.7205
bad grammar made sentence fuzzy to read
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1 hour ago, Riba.3271 said:

There was dozens of skill balance patches in past years, but WvW still has same problems where people just camp openfield and don't find objectives fun to fight in anymore.

#1 Reason (and wider problem in the mode): Population balance, solved by World Restructuring

#2 Reason (and wider problem in the mode): Nightcapping, solved by Outnumbered / Live Scoring

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58 minutes ago, Gorani.7205 said:
2 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

 

If I interpret this post correctly (we are talking about fighting in and around towers & keeps, I have to agree.

 

True, siege favors attacker heavily, fights defenders. Defenders have no way to stop enemy group if outnumbered, they can barely even buy time these days since shield gens block all defensive siege and walls/gates have less hitpoints.

 

Whereas defenders have received tankier lord and over 400 stats. 400 stats corresponds like 8% damage and 10% survivability and would decide winner in over half of GvGs. In keeps it is much more, and if you take into account that it is easier to muster people defending (mostly because people have bad experiences attacking) and even if attackers match numbers they'll lose unless they somehow outplay enemy respawns multiple times and deal 16% more damage and sustain 20% better than enemies. Even if you manage to barely defend something and get a good fight, you can't ever go offensive since the stats swing to enemy side and the difference double.

 

What they need to buff for defenders is buff siege vs siege damage about 25%, remove boons affecting golems, buff wall/gate hp and rework shield generators so that buying time with siege is doable. And as defensive nerf remove stats from claim buff and increase upgrade times of keeps/castles. So essentially go back to old balance where defending wasn't stat, but more siege focused. And once attacker manages to take down the siege, the fight is somewhat fair.

Edited by Riba.3271
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6 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

Hard disagree. . The team needs to work through all the changes since mid PoF. They have already made huge strides in class diversity but its still very clear that the mode is wildly unbalanced. It's going to take time for them to make adjustments as we adapt.

People need to chill. Anet has done more in the last 6 months then they did in the last few years of PoF.

It's like. Great Job Cal but not good enough, do more please. smh my head.

that's why so many guild did quit right?

things rather became untolerable, because nothing of the past years change is respecting the natural imbalance of fights. they balance for fantasy situations which cannot occur in Wvw really.

u don't have a even field where one neutral guy stands in mid and waves, after which both sides with equal numbers of equal players on equal classes start moving ... that's so far from reality and reason

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31 minutes ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

that's why so many guild did quit right?

things rather became untolerable, because nothing of the past years change is respecting the natural imbalance of fights. they balance for fantasy situations which cannot occur in Wvw really.

u don't have a even field where one neutral guy stands in mid and waves, after which both sides with equal numbers of equal players on equal classes start moving ... that's so far from reality and reason

I'd say most guilds quit or died because it's been fb scrap scr herald spb for what? 4 years? With real no reason to branch out. This team is making changes, tome change is big, shows they are willing to change class mechanics pretty drastically. They just need time to chip away at all the cool stuff they say they want to do. 

 

I've said it before. I don't care what they change. As long they are making changes regularly, it will attract more people and make the game more fun. 

Edited by Zikory.6871
Didn't like it. Still don't but meh.
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this claim is hard to hold up tho, where's your source that more players get attracted? it doesn't directly feel alike. the recent influx may be some steam players who slowly discovered that there's a wvw tab ... usually we don't have access to the data of how populated Wvw really is tho

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I mean, tf do I know. I'm lucky enough to have people I enjoy playing with. I'd say it's copuim but vind got 2 dodges, sneak stealth got dumpestered, now the tome change. Just have to wait to see what else they do. 

Edited by Zikory.6871
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From the conversations I’ve been having over the past few months, it isn’t just that the meta is tired, it’s the whole mode. Just…give us something new. Anything. A new map would be God-tier awesome. It doesn’t have to be perfect. Reuse an existing map from PVE if you want. Or a living world map. Just, give us something new.

 We’ve been fighting in the same maps, over the same objectives, in the same keeps and camps for countless years now and it’s beginning to get bit stale. We have exploits to glitch into keeps that are STILL not fixed, that basically allow anyone to completely break how WvW is supposed to work. 
There are some amazing people playing WvW who are extremely passionate about this fairly unique game mode. None of them are asking for special or preferential treatment. None of us are asking for you, Anet, to make us your main focus of development. We don’t expect you to drop everything else to work in WvW alone.

 We’re just a bit tired that you like to pretend we don’t even exist.

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14 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

There was dozens of skill balance patches in past years, but WvW still has same problems where people just camp openfield and don't find objectives fun to fight in anymore.

 

Maybe it is time to start tuning objective hitpoints, siege damage, upgrade times, claim buff, supply amount, lord hitpoints? The stuff you haven't even touched since first patch of HoT? In almost 7 years...

 

So you had massive patch that changed everything, and you got it right on the first time..? Ok.. Maybe just spend a day or two to dibble some numbers in the code to see if you can return the times when commanders liked to lead all day and scouts existed while having constant action.

Riba has a valid point, balance is a big topic but there are a lot of topics that pop up and there is no one reason why we have lost people overtime. Even if some is natural movement as players moving on to new games. Key is how is best to retain them and what will bring them back.

Riba and I don't agree on much, but I respect they are looking to increase player participation in WvW as a lot of people are, even if our hows might be different. (Don't take my DBL! 🙂)  We may not all agree on a lot of issues but for some the idea is the same to consider what might help increase population and still keep the game fun for those of us that do visit it on a regular basis already. I admit I have hope (I know bad idea Xen I have to play bad cop) that the new directors are allocating more budget so we can consider (note, not believe)  that they will be able to work on multiple projects at one time. I will cite as a reference that both Balance and WR are separate groups since they are working on both in tandem. I appreciate that even while I wouldn't have considered those overlapping resources either. So even if you doubt ANet is following their forums, which I doubt, drop feedback on what you are seeing, you might see counter views but that's because there are different environments across matchups, servers, regions. But make your point and the why bit when you can. May help when they consider how to apply changes and where people came from that idea. Good Forum Wars 2 to all!

Edited by TheGrimm.5624
double space issue
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14 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

#2 Reason (and wider problem in the mode): Nightcapping, solved by Outnumbered / Live Scoring

Nightcapping was solved half a decade ago with the skirmish system. Anything else is... simply players playing at night. Cant really avoid that.

Anyway, I would have to agree that Anet has focused way to much on skill numbers and too little on actual mechanics, both for the gamemode and classes. 

Just something as simple as condition damage not revealing stealthed characters. A basic gameplay mechanic that should be there and have major impact on class balance in all modes but nope cant have that.

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21 hours ago, Zikory.6871 said:

They have already made huge strides in class diversity

There's no diversity when everyone does the same thing in said role.

Anet will figure this out in 10 years. WoW figured it out years ago and fixed it

These new devs are now copying FF14 which copied WoW. WoW fixed it, FF14 has yet to fix it(and is suffering due to it), then Anet will fix it many years after FF14. This is why you don't copy things without understanding them.

Edited by Kozumi.5816
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54 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

There's no diversity when everyone does the same thing in said role.

I dont follow. My guild dropped scrapper well before the sneak nerf. We are playing multiple classes that weren't popular 6 months ago. At this point, lack of diversity it's a player failure. 

 

Yall brain dead if you think they just going to magically fix everything in a few patches. 

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Who isn't having fun in objectives? defenders or attackers? cause attackers can stay and farm objectives way easier these days.

Siege, wall/gate hitpoints, banners, all have been nerfed 2-5 years ago. Everything else hasn't been touched in like 7 years since HoT release. Buffing or nerfing any of these things isn't going to change combat itself, just the places they take place in.

But there is of course "one thing" that has been buffed quite a lot the past two years and has changed combat for worse. Only "one thing" that has changed to make groups be able to farm objectives, put a nice barrier between pug groups and the elite organized that borderline abuse mechanics, running over 5 cap aoes like they don't exist, of course everything else is getting nerfed, or getting suggested for nerfing, but no one wants to touch the "one thing".

Anet will move numbers around, hey maybe a spec or two might sneak into the tired old meta for a change, but overall group ball structure will never change again. They'll badly attempt to change mechanics, warrior banner, scrapper target gyros, firebrand tomes next, deadeye knee next (like who even asked for that change?), brought to you by the dev that did mirage one dodge and probably had a hefty hand in vindicator one loldodge that they had to revamp 6 months later, lol. Yeah, wvw balancing is in great hands.

But they gave chrono distortion back! and untamed pet switch! and mirage two dodge coming soon! I'm suppose to pat them on the back for stuff they took away in the first place? because they can't be bothered to actually balance a class around their mechanics and instead just take it away all together as the quick fix? oh look nerfing mirage staff "again" after just buffing it last summer. /slowclap

Pretty sure the balance team isn't reading these forums for advice anyways, they simply only care for the "one thing" and the one group of players that they listen to, the rest of the plebs can line up to offer their bags because you are of no importance until you get one of the 6-8 meta specs, get in voice, and hold your commanders pocket.

Edited by Xenesis.6389
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11 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Riba and I don't agree on much, but I respect they are looking to increase player participation in WvW

They could also advertise their game. ANET is TRASH at advertising (No offense, but we all know its true). Imagine if they actually advertised. The pvp combat in this game is hands down the best in any MMO.

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9 minutes ago, AlCapwnd.7834 said:

They could also advertise their game. ANET is TRASH at advertising (No offense, but we all know its true). Imagine if they actually advertised. The pvp combat in this game is hands down the best in any MMO.

No the pvp combat is hands down the worst in any mmo.

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11 hours ago, AlCapwnd.7834 said:

They could also advertise their game. ANET is TRASH at advertising (No offense, but we all know its true). Imagine if they actually advertised. The pvp combat in this game is hands down the best in any MMO.

 

One day I will need to research more in into the ad logic that Google and others sell. For me at least, I get Guildwars ads left and right and center which is messed up since I have already bought in. One thing I will give Steam, I wouldn't be surprised if a big part of the move to join Steam wasn't due to the value add that Steam sells as advertising by suggesting to players games that are like ones they already own. So will say your mileage will vary across advertising platforms.

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