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Reminder to devs that skill balance isn't everything


Riba.3271
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1 minute ago, Sahne.6950 said:

The thing is: new players simply dont have all this knowledge. 

They join pvp: They melt to condis, and they quit. 

Main complaint about pvp is the visual clutter and that Conditions are hella overpowered. When in reality... they are not overpowered, but the game does a horrible job at explaining the conditiongame to people. It needs more clarity if we want to keep new players...

 

 

Honestly, if a person quits pvp because they died soon after they joined without them making much of an effort to learn the game mode, I wouldn't worry much about them. They'll either come back later when they're ready to try again, or they'll find that pvp in this game is simply not for them, and that's ok. Not saying we shouldn't improve on things, of course, but I don't think "I hate pvp because I died easily as a beginner" is a good reason to start making changes on their behalf.

However, I did have an image in my head of the status effects we get when you were talking about them earlier... wherein we have them looking meaner based on whether they surpass a threshold against your health pool. Normal tick, normal looking indicator. If it's a higher damage tick, then make it more fiery if it's a burn, more bloody looking on bleed, etc. I stand by my thoughts that this isn't necessary, but I don't think it'd hurt the game either.

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13 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Sadly... those people are what could keep pvp alive.

You should worry about them tbh.

I said I wouldn't worry about them because of this:

5 minutes ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

They'll either come back later when they're ready to try again, or they'll find that pvp in this game is simply not for them, and that's ok. Not saying we shouldn't improve on things, of course, but I don't think "I hate pvp because I died easily as a beginner" is a good reason to start making changes on their behalf.

I think there's value in letting people experience the game a bit more and letting them use the resources it already provides. Their feedback then becomes more accurate. And they might learn that what's already in game is actually enough, like many of us have. And if not, then they can offer a more nuanced criticism other than just "well, I quit after I died because I didn't know what was going on and I didn't bother to look into it more." No one's going to take that seriously, let alone any dev who'd have to put the time to make the changes they're asking for.

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6 minutes ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

well, I quit after I died because I didn't know what was going

No one's going to take that seriously, let alone any dev

This is what the devs should take seriously tho.  If someone doesnt understand what happening in a game, the game did a poor job at explaining it. period. 

 

If you think the current conditonsystem is acceptable.... good for you.. i guess...

 

but i think its hardly bareable and in desperate need of a complete rework. 

This and visual clarity is the biggest downside to pvp currently.  (atleast according to alot of new players | i am actively searching for new players that want to pvp and i guide them. and those are their main complaints across the board.)

If we want pvp and WvW to be more populated, those are the people we should listen too. Because those people are the future players we are in desperate need off.

Edited by Sahne.6950
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26 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

This is what the devs should take seriously tho.  If someone doesnt understand what happening in a game, the game did a poor job at explaining it. period. 

That can be accurate if people actually tried a bit more than just going in a few times, dying, then quitting (I'm basing this on what you said people were doing). You can have all the resources for someone, but if they don't bother actually learning or at least trying to, then that's a problem on their end. Not the game, or anyone else's. Again, I'm not saying that nothing can be improved based on new player's feedback. I think you can stop making the assumption that that's what I'm implying. What I'm saying is, let them learn about the game more, and if they still feel similarly after learning more about it and its various resources, then their feedback should be given weight. Not anytime before. That's my only point.

26 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

If we want pvp and WvW to be more populated, those are the people we should listen too. Because those people are the future players we are in desperate need off.

I can agree that part of this is true. Any mmo needs new players to survive, and that's across game modes. However, there's other things to consider beyond just looking at new players. WvW's population bombed after their changes in 2016. 70% of my server left, many of them still come out to check whether the fiasco has ended, then they dip back out after finding that it's only gotten worse. If we want to not only entice new players, but also bring players back, AND retain them (both new and veteran), then we need to see what actually drove people out in the first place and why the game mode has felt lackluster for a majority of people. IMO, it's this long string of changes, starting with big ones that didn't need to be made in the first place, that brought us to WvW's current state. Not the combat or visuals, even though I agree that those things can also be improved upon.

Edited by meerfunkuhtron.9725
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21 minutes ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

. I think you can stop making the assumption that that's what I'm implying

never thought that dont worry. im a sane guy 😄

But apparently you think that its somewhat okayish in the way it is.   which you do.. if i understood you correctly.

 

While i am trying to tell you, that people i am training with for literal weeks, still fail to use the cleanses in the right way, they will cleanse when they see 5 burnstacks on them, altho they are fighting a Marauder Catalyst in pvp. 

And thats not because they are dumb,. Thats because they see 5 burnstacks on them... so they cleanse...     Then the necro comes and they inevitably melt, cuz they burned all their cleanse fighting the powercatalyst.

They then think: heyy... i dont cleanse when fighting cata, because most of them are marauder anyways....   Then they meet a condicatalyst and melt.

 

This isnt some "day one" mistakes, where people get upset and quit after that. This is a distinct issue with the gw2 UI and conditions itself.  To take it even further... you also cant really tell what condition you are gonna cleanse. You always cleanse the one that was applied last.. but which one is it!?  The conditions that get cleansed first, should always be the ones on the left. so cleansing order goes from left to right.  The conditions have to swap place as soon as a new one gets applied, so you even have a remote chance of calculating what condtion your gonna cleanse, without having to know the enemys build by heart. You basicly need to know what hit you last and what conditions it applied to make a valueable assumption which of the 6 conditions our going to cleanse with you 2 incoming cleanses.

If you really take a close look at the gw2 condition mechanics and counterplay... your quickly notice its a big, random mess.

I could mention a ton of these problems, for example Stability not have a animation....  WHY DOES THE MOST IMPORTANT BOON NOT HAVE A CLEAR ANIMATION!? excuse me?  Dont they think its important to note, that i cant CC this enemy currently?  i dont want to fight the boonbar.. i want to fight the player. But i have to stare at the boonbar constantly to make the right decisions.

gw2 UI and visiblity is a mess, no arguing about that. xD  The standards have risen a ton in the last 10 years... sadly... gw2 is still the same it was 10 years ago. (UI and visibility)

Edited by Sahne.6950
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2 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

never thought that dont worry. im a sane guy 😄

It is what you keep bringing up though, but let's move on.

4 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

While i am trying to tell you, that people i am training with for literal weeks, still fail to use the cleanses in the right way, they will cleanse when they see 5 burnstacks on them, altho they are fighting a Marauder Catalyst in pvp. 

Tell them to stop doing that then. Let one tick go by. I know you somehow think that's ridiculous but we've all managed and become successful in the game just using that method, at least until we've gotten more experience.
Plus I already offered thoughts in favor of this concern of yours, which is this:

58 minutes ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

However, I did have an image in my head of the status effects we get when you were talking about them earlier... wherein we have them looking meaner based on whether they surpass a threshold against your health pool. Normal tick, normal looking indicator. If it's a higher damage tick, then make it more fiery if it's a burn, more bloody looking on bleed, etc. I stand by my thoughts that this isn't necessary, but I don't think it'd hurt the game either.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

Tell them to stop doing that then. Let one tick go by. I know you somehow think that's ridiculous but we've all managed and become successful in the game just using that method,

i am infact reading.

i just think that the "let one tick go by"-Trick, shouldnt be necessary. 

You should be able to see how much damage your gonna get just by looking at the condition indicator itself.

Edited by Sahne.6950
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9 hours ago, Justine.6351 said:

or the catalyst that has perma stability for existing

Yeah, I assume everyone has perma stability on at all times because it's generally true. 

In a recent patch Anet gave out even more stability spam because they only balance around and listen to the boonball guilds and for some reason they think CC is an issue?!(????)

It's weird because mindless spamfests with tons of sustain is the exact type of gameplay CmC hates(I used to play with him in vanilla and talk to him). I don't believe CmC has free reign at or that he is actually doing these balance changes.

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10 hours ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

Specters are a thief class though. Disengaging in fights is one of their core traits for also being one of the squishiest classes. I know it can be annoying to fight against (thieves and mesmers have been the bane of my wvw existence since launch lol), but that's part of their class mechanics and learning how to counter them isn't impossible either. At least for the moment. There were times when they weren't, but Anet did make necessary changes for those.

 

The game's mobility and fast-paced aspects is one of the consistent praises I've seen regarding this game and it's what sets it apart from a lot of other mmo's that came out around the same time.. ones whose combat was slower and cast times that kept you rooted were the norm. I think even today, the only other game I hear mentioned regarding fast paced combat is BDO. However, I can definitely agree that some qualities have become bloated (re: sustain, cc's). I love the build diversity present in GW2 but I'd definitely like to see some aspects toned down. I'd be interested in how they'd do it though, without paring things down too much.

 There's "high mobility and disengage" then there's "This could literally be considered pos hack in another game". No, I am not saying hacking is being done, no I am not even suggesting hacking is being done, nor do I condone hacking. I am comparing the mobility to that if someone hacking in another game. Do not ban me and delete my post for comparing.

This game is most definitely not fast paced. High mobility? Yes, fast paced? no. Every 1v1 is a 30m+ long stalemate and even most small group skirmishes are sustain fests where people just end up running away before you can ever secure a kill. It's probably the slowest paced PvP on the market. Button mashing does not mean fast paced, it means mashing.

Every single person I played with quit the game due to the obscene power creep on mobility, sustain, and boon spam. None of these people have any interest in returning, and think it's not possible to fix the game. The only solution is GW3(or another game entirely). They have power crept everything too far and given everyone everything.

Edited by Kozumi.5816
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1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Yeah, I assume everyone has perma stability on at all times because it's generally true. 

In a recent patch Anet gave out even more stability spam because they only balance around and listen to the boonball guilds and for some reason they think CC is an issue?!(????)

It's weird because mindless spamfests with tons of sustain is the exact type of gameplay CmC hates(I used to play with him in vanilla and talk to him). I don't believe CmC has free reign at or that he is actually doing these balance changes.

Most people don't have perma stab like catalyst.

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13 hours ago, meerfunkuhtron.9725 said:

I tried looking up a list of all the changes they made and have come up short, save for people in forums highlighting comments and some vague announcements. I was hoping I'd actually find it in the wiki (as they typically have changes listed on there, don't they?). In any case, what I'm saying is, it's hard to enumerate all the changes made but we know full well those changes did happen. Big things were the world linking and changes to how match-ups were made. Others were the addition of the reward track (I don't think anyone complains about this one though lol), addition of the desert borderlands, gliding and mounts, changes to siege, pretty sure PPT scoring was changed too (but I can't find any substantial evidence on this one, just something I vaguely remember so take that with a bucket of salt). Some of these were big changes, especially the match ups and world linking, which were meant to address issues that-- as a lot of us tried to point out back then --in the end didn't resolve those issues and actually caused other problems instead.

Before HoT, WvW was mainly needing attention. We felt like the forgotten child. The biggest things people wanted were the lack of rewards, and that matches were stale. These at least were the concerns of my server and others we communicated with. There were also bugs to be fixed, of course, that's nothing new. But it was far from feeling like a fuster cluck of messes like it does now, wherein there seems to be so much more issues than Anet can ever try to resolve. I can understand why people feel a roll back to "simpler times", if you will, would be the best way to sort these issues out. Back when the problems were a bit clearer, more concise.

Does this help you out? https://i.imgur.com/BzTuzuA.png it's all the changes to the game since launch to 2019.

Scroll to the wvw section, a good chunk of important wvw changes(relinks, 1u1d, skirmish, 2abl1dbl, territories, gliding, reward tracks, skirmish mode and rewards, legendaries) came in 2016-2017 and a lot of discussion to them were on the old forums, which were switched to the current one in 2017 before PoF. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv

 

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On 11/24/2022 at 8:34 AM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

 

You make it sound like we have had a ton of changes. Please enumerate all these changes since HoT, outside of class changes, not sure what you refer 

Let's see then. 

Tactic's

Shield genies

Desertbl

Ac dmg nerfed to kitten

Rams got stupid amount of hp

Balista dmg nerfed to kitten

Mounts

Gliders

New upgrade system on keeps and towers is beyond stupid. Lets get the old system back, where players have to choose their upgrades for a cost, much more imteractive game exp. 

That's just of the top of my head, but im sure i can find more if i try. 

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1 hour ago, Thomas.2564 said:

Let's see then. 

Tactic's

Shield genies

Desertbl

Ac dmg nerfed to kitten

Rams got stupid amount of hp

Balista dmg nerfed to kitten

Mounts

Gliders

New upgrade system on keeps and towers is beyond stupid. Lets get the old system back, where players have to choose their upgrades for a cost, much more imteractive game exp. 

That's just of the top of my head, but im sure i can find more if i try. 

Good list.  
 

But if they re-introduce cost based upgrades, I’d be like f no.  Now, choosing to trigger an upgrade without the associated cost would be fine, but I don’t want to move back closer to the days where WvW cost more to play it than we got rewards wise

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3 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

Good list.  
 

But if they re-introduce cost based upgrades, I’d be like f no.  Now, choosing to trigger an upgrade without the associated cost would be fine, but I don’t want to move back closer to the days where WvW cost more to play it than we got rewards wise

Aaah, the upgrades were not that expensive imo https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Structure_upgrade

I still think it's well worth bringing the system back. It was by fare the best upgrade mechanic for wvw. Cant believe they removed it 😥

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On 11/13/2022 at 9:57 PM, Frayze.4620 said:

From the conversations I’ve been having over the past few months, it isn’t just that the meta is tired, it’s the whole mode. Just…give us something new. Anything. A new map would be God-tier awesome. It doesn’t have to be perfect. Reuse an existing map from PVE if you want. Or a living world map. Just, give us something new.

 We’ve been fighting in the same maps, over the same objectives, in the same keeps and camps for countless years now and it’s beginning to get bit stale. We have exploits to glitch into keeps that are STILL not fixed, that basically allow anyone to completely break how WvW is supposed to work. 
There are some amazing people playing WvW who are extremely passionate about this fairly unique game mode. None of them are asking for special or preferential treatment. None of us are asking for you, Anet, to make us your main focus of development. We don’t expect you to drop everything else to work in WvW alone.

 We’re just a bit tired that you like to pretend we don’t even exist.

Building wvw versions of PvE maps would be fascinating. 

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3 hours ago, Thomas.2564 said:

Aaah, the upgrades were not that expensive imo https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Structure_upgrade

I still think it's well worth bringing the system back. It was by fare the best upgrade mechanic for wvw. Cant believe they removed it 😥

It kinda was when wvw rewards was mostly garbage, didn't have rewards tracks, didn't have skirmish tracks, didn't have nodes, plus only a few would bother to do the upgrades, particularly the borderland "moms" that took care multiples of those upgrades, and they weren't exactly involved in every zerg fight for bags either.

These days, sure, go ahead, but I'm sure it'll be less popular than repairing.

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9 hours ago, Thomas.2564 said:

Let's see then. 

Tactic's

Good change, provided more options on people outfit an objective and though I think we could use more variety it added more to gameplay.

9 hours ago, Thomas.2564 said:

Shield genies

Not a fan but I do appreciate more siege options and could see that expanded.

9 hours ago, Thomas.2564 said:

Desertbl

Fourms had been asking for new maps for years before this and still do ask for more and new maps. Mileage will vary on what that would look like.

9 hours ago, Thomas.2564 said:

Ac dmg nerfed to kitten

Agree, once again a review of what should do what to what.  Overall again more siege options and review. 

9 hours ago, Thomas.2564 said:

Rams got stupid amount of hp

This goes under the balancing of the siege and objectives. But rolling back to pre HoT wouldn't solve this.

9 hours ago, Thomas.2564 said:

Balista dmg nerfed to kitten

Siege balance again.

9 hours ago, Thomas.2564 said:

Mounts

Not the best execution especially more so after the back and fourths on nerfs, but people had been asking again for a long time for more balance to moving across the maps. If the mounts had been released in a Warhammer style where you were dismounted on 1 hit and they left the double dodge and some of the other things it might have been fine.

9 hours ago, Thomas.2564 said:

Gliders

Gliders fit in better than most of the forum complaints called for versus players in game chat. It also added extra incentive to holding since it made a difference on same maps for getting around areas. Gliding was more less welcomed by people only look for flat maps and then was already calls for less flat maps going on.

9 hours ago, Thomas.2564 said:

New upgrade system on keeps and towers is beyond stupid. Lets get the old system back, where players have to choose their upgrades for a cost, much more imteractive game exp. 

That's just of the top of my head, but im sure i can find more if i try. 

The old system just created a system where a few people did all the work and payed for all the upgrades and then the rest of the map would just not care if a T3 got flipped because they hadn't paid for it so why bother. It was a great system for guilds on the same server to really dislike each other. It also feed more drama across the same server. Was nothing worse while you watched a guild skip an easy to win defense of a T3 keep to take a T0 camp because they hadn't spent anytime upgrading it but they would circle around and backcap once all the attackers left. No, not saying the current system is great and couldn't be improved, but this is just looking at the old system with rose colored glasses.

Edited by TheGrimm.5624
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On 11/13/2022 at 6:26 PM, Zikory.6871 said:

They have already made huge strides in class diversity

Sadly for all the advancements in class diversity, we have also took some huge steps back in the skill department. The changes, that were meant to further skillful play do work reasonably well in smallscale. Here you need to pay more attention to what skill you use when. In WvW large scale however these changes emphasize the size of groups over skill, making it ever more harder for smaller groups to win against bigger groups. In turn this means, skills matters less and less, size matters more and more.

So while we make advancement in class diversity, we take steps back in terms of skillful play, towards brainless groupsize. The reduction of stability and other defensive options will always hurt the smaller groups disproportionally more - at least until we get some mechanics to counter this. Be it diminishing returns when stacking attacks on the same players, grace periods after CCs or stunbreaks, or other mechanics I cannot fathom.

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18 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

The old system just created a system where a few people did all the work and payed for all the upgrades and then the rest of the map would just not care if a T3 got flipped because they hadn't paid for it so why bother. It was a great system for guilds on the same server to really dislike each other. It also feed more drama across the same server. Was nothing worse while you watched a guild skip an easy to win defense of a T3 keep to take a T0 camp because they hadn't spent anytime upgrading it but they would circle around and backcap once all the attackers left. No, not saying the current system is great and couldn't be improved, but this is just looking at the old system with rose colored glasses.

not only that, it even gave a lot of troll potential. the manual upgrades used to use up supplies, which in turn allowed enemy players to log into an alt account on the enemy server, run to their keep and start the upgrade (which then drained the supplies) before then attempting to flip it. 

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