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Ward type effects and defiance bar damage


Infusion.7149

Should ward type effects be standardized to provide defiance bar damage?  

26 members have voted

  1. 1. Should defiance break be added to other ward type effects?



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As most people doing instanced PVE know, Sanctuary is one of the most powerful CC effects ingame with 750 defiance bar damage and up to 1050 when traited.

However, there are quite a few skills ingame that do close to nothing in PVE because they have negligible damage, healing, or boon effects but have a "cannot cross" mechanic.

Which skills are these?

  • Line of Warding on guardian staff (5s duration)
    ** zero CC bar damage unless a target moves across it currently, if it is placed perpendicular it doesn't do anything
  • Ring of Warding on guardian hammer (5s duration) --- would probably make guardian hammer more common
    ** zero CC bar damage unless target moves across it
  • Hunter's Ward on DH longbow (5s duration) --- this probably shouldn't get much defiance bar damage since it has appreciable damage 
    ** currently one instance of CC if the target is moving
  • Nature's Binding on Untamed (4s duration) --- since it does basically nothing else and Untamed is a CC spec this should get defiance break IMO
    ** zero CC bar damage when cast at target
  • Seal Area on thieves (8s duration) --- 8 instances of defiance break might be a bit strong considering it has projectile destruction, but in PVP it is 5s duration
    ** doesn't even apply defiance bar damage if the edge of the dome is on the target
  • Unsteady Ground on elementalist staff (4s duration) --- literally no use other than the CC effect when outside of PVE
    ** zero CC bar damage when placed on the target

 

Edit: the follow-up question is how much CC should each of these skills do? 150 CC knockback?

Edited by Infusion.7149
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11 hours ago, Emberheart.8426 said:

You forgot static field on staff for elementalist. The weapon is supposed to be a decent CC weapon but ends up having 2 dead CC skills against most bosses while only retaining gust as a hard CC.

Static Field has defiance bar damage listed unless you are stating it is bug and it doesn't CC. Will test it if that is the case. I hardly use staff in PVE.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Field

 

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21 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Static Field has defiance bar damage listed unless you are stating it is bug and it doesn't CC. Will test it if that is the case. I hardly use staff in PVE.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Field

 

The stun only applies when targets cross the field, functioning similar to your specified ward-type skills.

If cast on top of a stationary boss, no stun is applied

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On 11/17/2022 at 6:08 PM, Emberheart.8426 said:

You forgot static field on staff for elementalist. The weapon is supposed to be a decent CC weapon but ends up having 2 dead CC skills against most bosses while only retaining gust as a hard CC.

Elementalists in general get completely screwed when it comes to CCing breakbars.

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3 hours ago, Avatara.1042 said:

Elementalists in general get completely screwed when it comes to CCing breakbars.

I don't know... the only build I know that doesn't have serviceable CC is staff.  Almost all other weapons or e-specs have either sufficient, or even great CC sometimes.  I.E. fresh-air hybrid weaver has a CC chain that uses Comet, Polaric Leap, Gale, then Gale strike for a total of 825 defiance damage.  The power version has a similar chain that does 657 defiance damage.  Worst case scenario where CC is really needed, the elite skill Tornado does 352 bar damage every 3 seconds, and an additional 232 whenever sing the dash attack.  

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On 11/17/2022 at 5:43 PM, Sir Buttles.5182 said:

The stun only applies when targets cross the field, functioning similar to your specified ward-type skills.

If cast on top of a stationary boss, no stun is applied

Same goes for necromancer's spectral ring that does not apply fear unless the outer edge is crossed.

 

On topic:

But at the same time if we question the way ward type apply a CC effect, does this mean that we also need to question this mechanism when it apply a non CC effect such as elementalist's ring of fire, Druid's sublime conversion, mesmer's temporal curtain (well it apply cripple when crossed that does breakbar damage)... etc.

Where should the devs draw the limit if we start questioning this mechanism? What would be the consequences of adding breakbar damage to those skills?

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On 11/17/2022 at 2:56 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

As most people doing instanced PVE know, Sanctuary is one of the most powerful CC effects ingame with 750 defiance bar damage and up to 1050 when traited.

However, there are quite a few skills ingame that do close to nothing in PVE because they have negligible damage, healing, or boon effects but have a "cannot cross" mechanic.

Which skills are these?

  • Line of Warding on guardian staff (5s duration)
    ** zero CC bar damage unless a target moves across it currently, if it is placed perpendicular it doesn't do anything
  • Ring of Warding on guardian hammer (5s duration) --- would probably make guardian hammer more common
    ** zero CC bar damage unless target moves across it
  • Hunter's Ward on DH longbow (5s duration) --- this probably shouldn't get much defiance bar damage since it has appreciable damage 
    ** currently one instance of CC if the target is moving
  • Nature's Binding on Untamed (4s duration) --- since it does basically nothing else and Untamed is a CC spec this should get defiance break IMO
    ** zero CC bar damage when cast at target
  • Seal Area on thieves (8s duration) --- 8 instances of defiance break might be a bit strong considering it has projectile destruction, but in PVP it is 5s duration
    ** doesn't even apply defiance bar damage if the edge of the dome is on the target
  • Unsteady Ground on elementalist staff (4s duration) --- literally no use other than the CC effect when outside of PVE
    ** zero CC bar damage when placed on the target

 

Edit: the follow-up question is how much CC should each of these skills do? 150 CC knockback?

The thing is that all the skills you said have a same caracteristic.

santuary, if im not wrong, knocks back enemies inside the bubble and keeps knocking them back each time they try to come in, you could say its a kinda magnet repulsion skill to disengage.

all the other skills mentioned are jails, more like a terrain alteration that traps you, you can still attack jump or move, but you find a wall that wont let you go, and that wall knocks you down, in wvw you need 2 stacks of stab to cross them.

now the thing is that if you made them breakbar in pve id vote for dh longbow5, and untamed jails to be an inmovilize, like ranger entangle, guardian hammer could maybe slow or freeze, hammer already has a good cc in one skill after all, and thief bubble and ele well, thief id say like guardian hammer while the ele i think it was like guard staff5? those lines id agree if you made them 150 breakbar as you can put them through the boss.

i said soft cc for the others because they function differently, theyre cages, or jails, so adding a soft cc on pve would be good and maintain the trapping identity without too much trouble

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5 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I don't know... the only build I know that doesn't have serviceable CC is staff.  Almost all other weapons or e-specs have either sufficient, or even great CC sometimes.  I.E. fresh-air hybrid weaver has a CC chain that uses Comet, Polaric Leap, Gale, then Gale strike for a total of 825 defiance damage.  The power version has a similar chain that does 657 defiance damage.  Worst case scenario where CC is really needed, the elite skill Tornado does 352 bar damage every 3 seconds, and an additional 232 whenever sing the dash attack.  

A massive chain through multiple attunements for sword (the weakest weapon currently) with focus, compared to being able to slot a utility slot and/or use one ability like other professions do?  Wow, go elementalists!

Edited by Avatara.1042
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6 hours ago, Avatara.1042 said:

A massive chain through multiple attunements for sword (the weakest weapon currently) with focus, compared to being able to slot a utility slot and/or use one ability like other professions do?  Wow, go elementalists!

Tornado.  But seriously, your complaint is that you have to swap attunements to get the most out of the profession?  I also only brought up sword as the "great cc" option because I rightly suspected that you just wanted to complain rather than be rational about this.  

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On 11/16/2022 at 7:56 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

As most people doing instanced PVE know, Sanctuary is one of the most powerful CC effects ingame with 750 defiance bar damage and up to 1050 when traited.

However, there are quite a few skills ingame that do close to nothing in PVE because they have negligible damage, healing, or boon effects but have a "cannot cross" mechanic.

...and special shout out to skills that got gutted while Sanctuary still exist in it's current state.

RIP Slickshoes.

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On 11/20/2022 at 6:08 AM, zaswer.5246 said:

The thing is that all the skills you said have a same caracteristic.

santuary, if im not wrong, knocks back enemies inside the bubble and keeps knocking them back each time they try to come in, you could say its a kinda magnet repulsion skill to disengage.

all the other skills mentioned are jails, more like a terrain alteration that traps you, you can still attack jump or move, but you find a wall that wont let you go, and that wall knocks you down, in wvw you need 2 stacks of stab to cross them.

now the thing is that if you made them breakbar in pve id vote for dh longbow5, and untamed jails to be an inmovilize, like ranger entangle, guardian hammer could maybe slow or freeze, hammer already has a good cc in one skill after all, and thief bubble and ele well, thief id say like guardian hammer while the ele i think it was like guard staff5? those lines id agree if you made them 150 breakbar as you can put them through the boss.

i said soft cc for the others because they function differently, theyre cages, or jails, so adding a soft cc on pve would be good and maintain the trapping identity without too much trouble

I'm just bringing attention to this anomaly. I want to see what other people think since it affects more than one spec. In addition, even if you put some of these effects at the edge of the boss it still does zero defiance bar damage.

Especially on W4 Samarog with 4500 breakbar and Sunqua Peak (Ai), Sanctuary has seen the utmost use and arguably also on Matthias (2500 breakbar on sacrifice) and Slothasor (4000 breakbar). There are skills that break bars quickly such as Basilisk Venom which is popular on Samarog but those are not surefire since they rely on other people.

Keep in mind if you make a ward type effect into an immobilize it is no longer hard CC and if the skill isn't split in WVW/PVP it can be condi cleansed (even if someone can't dodge while immobed).

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1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I'm just bringing attention to this anomaly. I want to see what other people think since it affects more than one spec. In addition, even if you put some of these effects at the edge of the boss it still does zero defiance bar damage.

Especially on W4 Samarog with 4500 breakbar and Sunqua Peak (Ai), Sanctuary has seen the utmost use and arguably also on Matthias (2500 breakbar on sacrifice) and Slothasor (4000 breakbar). There are skills that break bars quickly such as Basilisk Venom which is popular on Samarog but those are not surefire since they rely on other people.

Keep in mind if you make a ward type effect into an immobilize it is no longer hard CC and if the skill isn't split in WVW/PVP it can be condi cleansed (even if someone can't dodge while immobed).

the inmob and soft cc i proposed was just for pve purposes, on wvw and pvp it should stay as is, also bosses with huge cc bars, in my opinion, are made so you need to depend on others and trust theyll do their job, of course its not allwais the case but it is a group content, and giving soft cc would help without being too much, just the final little push sometimes groups need

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On 11/21/2022 at 2:28 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Tornado.  But seriously, your complaint is that you have to swap attunements to get the most out of the profession?  I also only brought up sword as the "great cc" option because I rightly suspected that you just wanted to complain rather than be rational about this.  

I'd love to use tornado as a cc skill but it has a 150 sec cd in pve 😥

Only worth taking in pvp/wvw for fun

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2 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

I'd love to use tornado as a cc skill but it has a 150 sec cd in pve 😥

Only worth taking in pvp/wvw for fun

I've been using Tornado against Soo-Won, and in the Aether Strike.  That was just the universal example, though.  Each weapon, except for staff, has a few CC skills on it.  Ignoring all the chill, cripple, weakness, and blind that ele puts out, dagger off-hand has 432 defiance damage, focus has 600, warhorn has 300, hammer has a lightning field alongside of 350 damage (which can be doubled with Elemental Celerity).  That's just the weapon stuff.  The water and air elementals from the elite glyph both have CC on command.  If you happen to be equipped with Lightning Hammer you can use Wind Blast, Static Field + Lightning Leap for an additional 332 bar damage,  If you're old school and run ice bow, that does an additional 300 with Deep Freeze.  Of course, weaver has... a lot, scattered about all the dual skills.  

This is a lot of words to say that Ele's aren't exactly hurting for CC.  Weaver has 632-832 on command, Catalyst has 700 on command, Tempest is lowest with 300 on warhorn (but 632 if they have Lightning Hammer), but that isn't a small amount either.  If they run focus, they have 600 on a whim.  So, when somebody says that Ele's are terrible at CC, I can assume either incompetence or disingenuity.

Edited by Blood Red Arachnid.2493
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On 11/21/2022 at 6:28 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Tornado.  But seriously, your complaint is that you have to swap attunements to get the most out of the profession?  I also only brought up sword as the "great cc" option because I rightly suspected that you just wanted to complain rather than be rational about this.  

There is a reason you are getting the confuse face.

 

Cycling through multiple different attunements and dual-skills for 6 seconds (while being prepared in advance thanks to weaver's mechanics of secondary attunement), is COMPLETELY different to pushing your 4/5 key and using a utility or elite.

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