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Chain CC is crap


Rovaeden.8546

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6 hours ago, Svarty.8019 said:

In hindsight, we should have recognised that the introduction of the Defiance Bar was Arenanet throwing the Competitive Modes under the bus.

 

In one of the EoD dev video we got this gem: "we tried to push breakbars a lot more with this expansion"
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1171101382
56m30s

 

What a mess.

I don't understand what is your point? 

There are no break bar in PvP, the OP is talking about abondance of CC spam in PvE mobs, and dev you cited is talking about breakbar on mobs on PvE

You're not even a bit relevant on the subject ? 

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6 hours ago, Svarty.8019 said:

In hindsight, we should have recognised that the introduction of the Defiance Bar was Arenanet throwing the Competitive Modes under the bus.

Not sure what you want to say here because defiance bars, which were introduced as far back as 2015, replaced an existing cc immunity system for bosses in pve (which worked based off of stacks and once all thevstacks where depleted the next cc would work).

 

This had absolutely no bearing on pvp.

6 hours ago, Svarty.8019 said:

 

In one of the EoD dev video we got this gem: "we tried to push breakbars a lot more with this expansion"
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1171101382
56m30s

 

What a mess.

Again this has absolutely nothing to do with pvp and is only pve related.

In fact the change to stability, which was unrelated to defiance bars, had likely a far more reaching effect on pve than the defiance bar change.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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I think its a design thing. This game wants to keep player active, moving, dodging and the fights fast and impactful. Many other games often allow face tanking and mobs can become big dmg sponges and fights become slow, static and boring and it comes to time to kill vs time to die.

If you want to have fast and active and meaningful combat, you need low hp but potent enemies. They could up the dmg but that might frustrate players even more because they might get killed in 1 or 2 hits, especially on low hp builds that already come close to it. So instead the potency comes from relatively high dmg of enemies but also from plenty of CC abilities that you need to avoid or break. 

I think its a good design. I prefer active combat and using all of my arsenal. I can't think of many CC abilities that are unavoidable or over annoying. Maybe Thornhearths in EOD meta. But there the real problem is all the visual mess (well thats often the true issue or at least a big part of the problem because you just can't see anything).

My rule of thumb is one reliable stun break and one reliable condi cleanse on all OW builds. I dont value stability much in OW because if you can predict an attack you can dodge it instead and not waste utility. I will even take a stun break in some instance fights where I know I might get in trouble. Yeah I might lose dps or hps but breaking a crucial stun is way more important.

Edited by Cuks.8241
typos
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I agree with pve op, good luck running through desolation there isnt enough stun breaks in the game when every mob has knock down stun bind slow cripple. And they attack in packs knock you into the next packs agro range now you are screwed. I died more in pof than i did in hot to being locked out. In hot it was tight agro ranges and terrain that did you in. In pof it was stun and knockbacks locking you out of spells. I would get hit break it instantly get hit again with some form of mob cc, all I did was watch my spells go on lockout and hope my stun break would come off cd intime for me to heal and maybe get away. 

Edited by Artemis.8034
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On 11/21/2022 at 6:55 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

This might work in PvP, but in PvE this is often circumvented by cc effects going through stab (and sometimes even through dodge), and, more often, by just overwhelming players with them. I mean, if the player can deal with cc from one mob, just give that mob 10+ adds with their own CCs for added fun.

I mean, good luck blocking, blinding, stunbreaking, dodging and cleansing all cc effects from Drizzlewood's Claw of Jormag, for example.

Exactly this.

I'm glad someone has the foresight to get it.

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On 11/21/2022 at 10:36 AM, disco.9302 said:

are you able to provide an example of where exactly you are getting cc chained? there are very few places that this exists as far as I know

the majority of the issue can be solved by understanding the engagement and remembering some basic attack patterns, effectively experience.

I deliberately left out specifics because then people focus in on those specifics as an excuse to dealing with the larger problem at hand, that being chain cc itself.

 

 

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On 11/23/2022 at 2:29 AM, Astralporing.1957 said:

And? Having no control over your character for large parts of such similar encounters is still no fun at all. What's the point of such a mechanic, if the only correct approach to it is not doing it, but overzerging it? All it does is generate annoyance, nothing more.

I like you Astralporing.1957, you actually have a brain and USE IT to do thinking. It's nice! Refreshing even. 🙂

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On 11/23/2022 at 3:00 AM, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Every player is free to bring stun breaks, condi cleanse, resistance, etc. Some of those skills even affect allies around one. 

 

Thus once enough players decide to bring adequate skills to counter the crowd control, everyone wins. Even better, a few players on hybrid or dedicated support builds can carry the entire encounter.

 

I see no issue here besides players once again refusing to interact with the games skill and build system.🤷‍♂️


Gee, thats a brilliant idea! Why didn't I think of replacing all my skills with CC breaks!

*goes off to try that*

 

Hmmm. Why am I dead? I broke all the CC IN THE WORLD but did 0% dps... I can't see what I did wrong.....

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On 11/24/2022 at 2:09 AM, Shuzuru.3651 said:

I don't understand what is your point? 

There are no break bar in PvP, the OP is talking about abondance of CC spam in PvE mobs, and dev you cited is talking about breakbar on mobs on PvE

You're not even a bit relevant on the subject ? 

Svarty's comment is completely relevant.


He's talking about the fact that rather than fix the mess that is CC design in the game, the devs think defiance / breakbars on mobs are a critical problem in the game.

 

Ergo, they are blind to real problems that players actually face, as usual.

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Just now, Rovaeden.8546 said:

Svarty's comment is completely relevant.


He's talking about the fact that rather than fix the mess that is CC design in the game, the devs think defiance / breakbars on mobs are a critical problem in the game.

 

Ergo, they are blind to real problems that players actually face, as usual.

The CC design is not a mess. You just have to do more than auto attack. You can dodge, you have stun breaks and so on. Use them. 

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9 minutes ago, Rovaeden.8546 said:


Gee, thats a brilliant idea! Why didn't I think of replacing all my skills with CC breaks!

*goes off to try that*

 

Hmmm. Why am I dead? I broke all the CC IN THE WORLD but did 0% dps... I can't see what I did wrong.....

Yes, because open world content needs so much dps, especially when zerging down most meta bosses and even then replacing 1-2 utility skills with actual utility won't tank your dps, well unless it was kitten before already.

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On 11/24/2022 at 6:47 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

I really do think that stunbreaks (and condi cleanses, *gasp!*) giving you a tiny grace period from what you just removed is a good idea, though. Numerous random PvE (not even raid or fractal or strike or anything) encounters get *really* annoying with incessant pulsing cats.

Exactly.

Not everyone has lightning reflexes.

Having a grace period so that any given player can reorient themselves and get back into the fight is just simply good design on the part of the devs.

This is particularly true for solo open world content.

Given that the vast majority of players across all MMOs are casual and predominantly play solo, it would seem to be sensible for the devs to recognize that fact and design content accordingly.

 

Challenge already exists for those who wish to seek it out. Open world should not be so punishing that new players prefer to avoid it (or avoid certain zones) altogether.

Remember kids, especially those of you suggesting "Dodge" or "Stability", essentially saying "Get Good", not everyone is playing your class, with your build and your gear, with your skill and your experience with the game. So please, learn to think outside the parameters of your own experiences on occasion. 😉

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On 11/24/2022 at 12:25 PM, Cuks.8241 said:

My rule of thumb is one reliable stun break and one reliable condi cleanse on all OW builds. I dont value stability much in OW because if you can predict an attack you can dodge it instead and not waste utility. I will even take a stun break in some instance fights where I know I might get in trouble. Yeah I might lose dps or hps but breaking a crucial stun is way more important.

Yes, of course.
That is how all my characters are built.

The problem comes, and the reason for this thread, when you do everything you are supposed to do but still get stomped repeatedly because you one, long cooldown stun break is effectively ignored by the enemy or enemies in that encounter instantly knocking you down THE SAME SECOND you popped your stunbreak. There literally isn't time to dodge roll or run, jump dance or tricycle anywhere because you are still stunned and effectively dead.

I just don't understand the reasoning of so many of you. You come here with this attitude like...

"I'm awesome and you, OP, suck. You come in here with your scrubby little complaints about this, our perfect, flawless game in which we, unlike you are awesome in every way! Please shut up and go away since you are unwilling to blindly worship at the Alter that ArenaNet has graciously provided!"

I'm left scratching my head at this apparent attitude.
Like, can it really be possible that NONE of you have experienced a fight in open world where you just get stomped over and over, like the AI is cheating? No matter what you do or how you adjust your build the outcome is that the enemy pack just kicks your carcass all over the area until you are dead?

Perhaps you have not experienced this because you don't go out solo?
Perhaps you just run past every fight on the way to your next tick-box?
Perhaps you only do group content or pvp?

I don't now, but it sure would be nice if you ditch the attitude, stop and think of a situation in which what the OP claims to be true could actually be true, then use your time and words to actually ... ahem...

MAKE THE GAME BETTER FOR US ALL
 

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On 11/24/2022 at 4:08 PM, Artemis.8034 said:

"... there isnt enough stun breaks in the game when every mob has knock down stun bind slow cripple. And they attack in packs knock you into the next packs agro range now you are screwed..."
"... stun and knockbacks locking you out of spells. I would get hit break it instantly get hit again with some form of mob cc, all I did was watch my spells go on lockout and hope my stun break would come off cd intime for me to heal and maybe get away..."

Exactly this!

I have removed the place names because the location doesn't and shouldn't matter.
What matters is that CC like this is a problem that needs fixing.

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2 hours ago, Rovaeden.8546 said:

What matters is that CC like this is a problem that needs fixing.

It doesn’t. The CC is not the problem, the problem is how you handle it. There are many good advice in this thread, maybe try them out the next time in game, try to improve. 

Edited by yoni.7015
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3 hours ago, Rovaeden.8546 said:

I deliberately left out specifics because then people focus in on those specifics as an excuse to dealing with the larger problem at hand, that being chain cc itself.

Exactly, the reason you've left the specifics out is because you're aware it probably is an "l2p issue" and not the actual game issue. God forbid someone told you how to solve the problem without nerfing the mechanics/game because you don't want to play around it.

Edited by Sobx.1758
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21 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

It doesn’t. The CC is not the problem, the problem is how you handle it. There are many good advice in this thread, maybe try them out the next time in game, try to improve. 

My friend,
believe me when I tell you this.
This is not a problem of strategy, it is a problem of physics. Of time.

 

In a situation of repeated, incoming CC, where is the time to dodge or move? If you get knocked down, press your stun break and are still knocked down, because the incoming CC is so constant that another CC hit you before your character had a chance to animate standing up, how does any amount of strategy factor in?

This happens frequently enough to be noticeable to me, and I always run a stunbreak on my characters, sometimes more than one.
In situations where my dodges are on cooldown and my stunbreaks used and I am still killed because of CC, then it is a problem of game tuning.

This is what I am trying, repeatedly, to explain to you few who obstinately refuse to believe that such a situation can exist.

So, I pose to you, yoni.7015, how do you fit the time required to use an action into a space of zero seconds?
 

Edited by Rovaeden.8546
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4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Exactly, the reason you've left the specifics out is because you're aware it probably is an "l2p issue" and not the actual issue. God forbid someone told you how to solve the problem without nerfing the mechanics/game because you don't want to play around it.

uhh. I'm actually gonna have to use the confused button on this one.

You totally missed the point.

I will pose to you the exact question I posed above.

How do you, Sobx.1758, fit the time required to use an action into the space of zero seconds?

 

Edited by Rovaeden.8546
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14 minutes ago, Rovaeden.8546 said:

In a situation of repeated, incoming CC, where is the time to dodge or move? If you get knocked down, press your stun break and are still knocked down, because the incoming CC is so constant that another CC hit you before your character had a chance to animate standing up, how does any amount of strategy factor in?

It's called stability and it often comes with multiple stacks.

Let's say you know multi hit cc is about to happen, you use your stability skill.

Let's say you forgot that multi hit cc is about to happen and you get caught by surprise, then  you use your stun break and dodge away or use your stability skill after.

Let's say you forgot that multi hit cc is about to happen and you get caught by surprise and you have no trust in your reflexes, then  you use your stability skill first to get some stacks and follow it up with your stun break.

I'm sorry but this is a clear learn to play issue. There are dozens of other mechanics which you can make use of depending on class but those two up top are available on pretty much every class and can be slotted as need be.

What won't work is to stick to your copy paste build from some website, or god forbid custom build, which has 0 defensive skills slotted while face tanking every attack coming your way. You have options in this game, the part where the player skill comes in is the one where you know how to make use of those options. Most often it's not even a matter of reflexes given there are builds which can face tank just about any open world content with minimal interaction (and many open world builds on popular sites like metabattle are shared).

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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When this game was still in beta and, shortly after, on release, there was massive struggle by a lot of player in surviving in combat.  The biggest hurdle was adopting the mindset that you must avoid all damage in GW2; whereas, in other games, taking damage is a normal part of the game.

 

The problem posed in this thread is similar.  The goal of GW2 combat is not to get hit in the first place.  As you progress through the core game and into expansion content, the goal becomes, almost, impossible. I say almost because it is possible to avoid all damage in a any given combat situation; however, you must build specifically to do so.  Anyways, you have to practice by starting from the beginning and focus on not getting hit at all in every combat scenario.  By starting from the beginning, I mean starting with core GW2 and progressing through to the expansion.  Once the mindset of not getting hit at all becomes natural, i.e., you don't have to actively think about avoiding hits as it is an autonomous part of playing the game, avoiding chain CC becomes extremely easy.  

 

The end result is that your constant repositioning, active damage mitigation, use of mobility skills, and occasional use of the stun break (aka the "oh skritt I messed up" button) will allow you to easily handle any combat situation.  Essentially, you must adapt yourself to the combat mechanics of the game in order to effectively play the game, and refrain from implementing habits learned from other games.

 

Edit:

Specific Example: Path of Fire - Forged Patrols:

Forged patrols usually consist of multiple enemies that can CC you, some of which have multiple CC's to throw at you.  

With my thief, I can avoid all hits and take out the forged patrol. I play condition/evasion daredevil (usually) on my thief.  I'm very familiar with the pacing of combat with forged patrols, so I can initiate a fight, timely evade the initial barrage of damage and CC, deal my damage, repeat.  I don't spam evades; rather, I pace my evades to avoid incoming fire and CC, then applying damage while the mobs are, effectively, on cooldown before the next attack.  I'm constantly moving (WASD) in combat to further avoid damage.  Playing my condi/evade daredevil is about knowing the pacing of any given encounter and fighting with damaging attacks, re-positioning, and evading.  Damage avoidance = CC avoidance; thus, I never get chain CC'd.  The stun break is only there in case I misstep and get CC'd, then I, instinctively and immediately, break the CC and fight defensively until I can resettle into the pacing of combat.

For my warrior (Hammer + mace/shield)  I engage forged patrols in one of two ways.  If I can get the first strike, I open with hammer and immediately stun what I can.  I can then avoid (dodge) the few attacks from unstunned foes.  I can then focus damage on stunned enemies while using movement (WASD) to advantageously position myself to avoid the counter-offensive from unstunned foes.  Afterwards, whatever stunned foes I didn't kill in that opening burst now have a chance to attack.  Now I switch to mace/shield for attack mitigation, dealing some damage wherever the opportunity presents, until the major stuns on my hammer become available again.  Switch to hammer once an opening (usually when enemies attempt to CC again and CC is now on cooldown for them), I switch back to hammer and repeat.  The pacing of combat, for the same mob type (reforged patrol) is different from when I'm playing thief, but is consistent nonetheless.  

Option two is to open with mace/shield, as the mob will effectively be able to strike me first before I can.  The pacing of battle from there is the same as opening with hammer.

 

Just two specific examples to clarify what I mean by training yourself to fight with attack avoidance as an autonomous part of play.  I don't have to think about blocking/evading/etc., I can do so as part of the regular way I play the game.

 

Edited by Rogue.8235
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3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

What's exactly is so confusing here?

Okay I will play, you and the other saying L2P so instead of trolling people without any constructive answers why dont you explain how you handle being chain cc'd by a mass of different mobs? Im guessing you fly high above on your skyscale and avoid the mobs that are tightly clustered. How do you get through the ruptured heart, the darklands, the ruination and others in desolation while getting chained cc'd by the packs of forged patrols, the bola throwing forged soldiers, the officers , the forgerunners,  and then the  awakened aboms and canids the knock you into next week harpies. The problem is when you get into a fight and suddenly the rest of the area has agro onto you lol. So yeah soloing pof in many places on ground is a massive cc fest and you soon run out of breaks to get out of blinds stuns cripples knockbacks knockdowns with a dozen mobs on you. And skyscale dont count. 

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