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Mechanist is currently destroying the Raid/Strike. Please consider nerf it ASAP.


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5 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

If 25.9k is top dps in your group then that is kinda sad.

but it's not only a build 25-26k dps is it? It's 25-26k dps 2 apm build (and more with minimal input), 
on a pet class (which results in higher damage uptime in actual encounters aka the difference between bench and encounter is lower) with pierce, max range and supper good utility skills.

That's what no other class mirrors even now and ignoring those factors, which still best dps on pve, is what makes your arguments dishonest/biased?

 

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1 hour ago, noneHotBuildTest.7251 said:

but it's not only a build 25-26k dps is it? It's 25-26k dps 2 apm build (and more with minimal input), 
on a pet class (which results in higher damage uptime in actual encounters aka the difference between bench and encounter is lower) with pierce, max range and supper good utility skills.

That's what no other class mirrors even now and ignoring those factors, which still best dps on pve, is what makes your arguments dishonest/biased?

 

Then don't take mechanists into your group. Game became so much better now that low skill people can run mech and do decent damage

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On 12/19/2022 at 12:26 AM, Linken.6345 said:

If 25.9k is top dps in your group then that is kinda sad.

I don't know what groups you've played in but I've had ArcDPS enabled for years and in all content. Most groups don't exceed 20k in T4 Fractals/CMs, you'll see maybe 25k in strikes and 30k in raids.

 

This is very high real-world DPS due to how much mechanics lower damage compared to golem, and on some encounters with excessive movement you'll be lucky to see half your group breaking 15k because of constant melee chasing, I've seen as low as 10k top DPS in fully organised groups in chase-heavy bosses and low ranged options on players, because there's just no way for all your melees to consistently hit the enemy.

 

(Condi is often used as a crutch for lack of range, but most of the skills are still melee range.)

 

I don't like when players who should be respectable spread misinformation, it confuses newer players. No one does golem DPS (which is only max 30k for some classes) in actual encounters and never will.

Edited by Mariyuuna.6508
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On 12/19/2022 at 7:34 AM, noneHotBuildTest.7251 said:

but it's not only a build 25-26k dps is it? It's 25-26k dps 2 apm build (and more with minimal input), 
on a pet class (which results in higher damage uptime in actual encounters aka the difference between bench and encounter is lower) with pierce, max range and supper good utility skills.

That's what no other class mirrors even now and ignoring those factors, which still best dps on pve, is what makes your arguments dishonest/biased?

 

Mirage has a 1apm build that does 30k.

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14 hours ago, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

I don't know what groups you've played in but I've had ArcDPS enabled for years and in all content. Most groups don't exceed 20k in T4 Fractals/CMs, you'll see maybe 25k in strikes and 30k in raids.

 

This is very high real-world DPS due to how much mechanics lower damage compared to golem, and on some encounters with excessive movement you'll be lucky to see half your group breaking 15k because of constant melee chasing, I've seen as low as 10k top DPS in fully organised groups in chase-heavy bosses and low ranged options on players, because there's just no way for all your melees to consistently hit the enemy.

 

(Condi is often used as a crutch for lack of range, but most of the skills are still melee range.)

 

I don't like when players who should be respectable spread misinformation, it confuses newer players. No one does golem DPS (which is only max 30k for some classes) in actual encounters and never will.

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/

Quite a lot exceed 20k in fractals. And if filtered for phase dps >50k are common too in some places.

Every dps below 25k on a clean dark ai without deaths etc is just not good. sub 20 is blockworthy.

Good players do even more than golem dps in some rare cases in fractals. There is a 45k dh siax log for example while it has just a 36k bench. And phase dps can reach ridiculous numbers if the phase is short enough.

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2 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/

Quite a lot exceed 20k in fractals. And if filtered for phase dps >50k are common too in some places.

Every dps below 25k on a clean dark ai without deaths etc is just not good. sub 20 is blockworthy.

Good players do even more than golem dps in some rare cases in fractals. There is a 45k dh siax log for example while it has just a 36k bench. And phase dps can reach ridiculous numbers if the phase is short enough.

Have you checked dps per time? Burst goes up to 50k on some classes, and then DPS drops below 25k on pretty much all encounters. With exception being Ai DPS golem phase during CM (full enoucounter dps over time still falls below 25k after initial burst), it's same even for Siax, which takes ~60 seconds to kill on organised group (even less for speedrun). Not sure if you are trying to make false statements on purpose, or just incompetent.

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11 hours ago, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Have you checked dps per time? Burst goes up to 50k on some classes, and then DPS drops below 25k on pretty much all encounters. With exception being Ai DPS golem phase during CM (full enoucounter dps over time still falls below 25k after initial burst), it's same even for Siax, which takes ~60 seconds to kill on organised group (even less for speedrun). Not sure if you are trying to make false statements on purpose, or just incompetent.

What is damage per second per time? Looking at full encounter dps when the encounter is not attackable for half the fight is meaningless. Burst goes up to 100k+ on some classes. Dark ai full encounter dps should always be close to 30k or above. Few people even reach 40k there.

Thats why i wrote phase dps. The dps goes down because bosses are invuln for extended periods of time like enso.

Speedkills:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20221218-150824_siax_kill 

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/HlAp-20221130-235547_siax

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20221130-145909_drkai_kill

Casual kills:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20221215-225338_ensol_kill

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20221130-181206_drkai_kill

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20221215-225003_siax_kill

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20221215-224423_mama_kill

It is kinda funny that you call me incompetent when it is mostly a you problem for not seeing those dps numbers. The builds can do it.

A 26k li build is not broken at all. Rifle mech is kinda bad now because its bugged and does maybe 30k on golem. Its not hard at all to outdamge the easy mech builds now.

Edited by Nephalem.8921
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Rifle engi gone, but they buff bomb kit to ridiculously overpowered.

29k dps with NO input (and more with minimal input), 
on a pet class (which results in higher damage uptime in actual encounters aka the difference between bench and encounter is lower) with pierce, max range and supper good utility skills.

Where is ENGI nerf? honesty! where?

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10 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Why do people still think this?
What's the reasoning here?

Well, it's certainly true if your pet is able to continuously attack, ignore area denial and mechanics, and deals a large portion of your damage.  Comparing to a melee build that loses DPS every time they or their target move, that can create a very significant disparity.  This is also an issue when comparing ranged DPS to melee DPS.  Melee is obviously limited to dealing damage at close range while ranged DPS is not.

I'm not saying that I agree with the OP's quest to nerf mechanist into oblivion.  Just explaining the reasoning.

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On 12/21/2022 at 3:15 PM, Nephalem.8921 said:

What is damage per second per time? Looking at full encounter dps when the encounter is not attackable for half the fight is meaningless. Burst goes up to 100k+ on some classes. Dark ai full encounter dps should always be close to 30k or above. Few people even reach 40k there.

Thats why i wrote phase dps. The dps goes down because bosses are invuln for extended periods of time like enso.

Speedkills:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20221218-150824_siax_kill 

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/HlAp-20221130-235547_siax

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20221130-145909_drkai_kill

Casual kills:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20221215-225338_ensol_kill

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20221130-181206_drkai_kill

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20221215-225003_siax_kill

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20221215-224423_mama_kill

It is kinda funny that you call me incompetent when it is mostly a you problem for not seeing those dps numbers. The builds can do it.

A 26k li build is not broken at all. Rifle mech is kinda bad now because its bugged and does maybe 30k on golem. Its not hard at all to outdamge the easy mech builds now.

You're confusing burst DPS with sustained damage. If the game was only about burst damage, then Bladesworn would be king, and no one would ever bother to bring a Machinist to a fight. For a Bladesworn a 100k isn't even a burst, its literally just a single hit, yet outside of raid speedruns its one of the most unpopular options to play.

 

Do you not understand why players chose classes with a high sustained DPS even if it has a low burst? Burst capability is also not so important outside of phased bosses.

Edited by Mariyuuna.6508
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3 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Well, it's certainly true if your pet is able to continuously attack, ignore area denial and mechanics, and deals a large portion of your damage.

I mean, yeah, okay, sure. Rifle mech, condi scourge, half of all mesmer builds, and a few eles also benefit from this. I really don't think it's worth bringing it up as some unique advantage every single time, especially now when the ideal circumstance golem DPS is ~75-80% of what other DPS gets... Never mind the fact that the pet attacking now has an auto-stat-penalty if there is a mechanic or the boss moves, meaning the "pet gets to attack for free with full DPS" is no longer true, either.

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On 11/20/2022 at 10:24 PM, noneHotBuildTest.7251 said:

Support mechanist is just as better version of Firebrand in groups, firebrand have heal but they don't provide ungodly levels of barrier.

Bunker mechanist can EASILY tank Raid bosses. It should not be able to generate enmity at all.

DPS mechanist is doing top DPS. The skill floor on this class is extremely low, probably the lowest in the entire game.

You can do ~25k DPS while literally AFK only auto-attacking.

 

 

So, there is a problem with Mechanist. No build in the game should trivialize content with so little effort. 
It's astounding to me that anyone would defend what this spec is capable of. 

Support mechanist can't effectively ranged heal and must auto attack consistently to maintain high barrier generation. which matters in some roles like flack kite. It's not the end all be all of heals and i've been in groups that have struggled due to this: people saying "o look this is so op" but then failing to consider mechanics. Also you need your mech close enough to properly apply boons which can be an issue in high movement fights. The only comfort i'd get from a nerf is maybe people will just stop using it altogether. I would be sad because i like tanking on it in SH but i actually loathe them as support because i've seen people mess them up bad. 

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At this point the damage is already done. Mech obviously  is already widespread flagged as the "play this if you want to play raids and strikes, it is ez and gud!" spec even in the mind of the crowd that doesn't come to forums. The people that usually wouldn't have set foot in raids or strikes since it's content not ment for them, those people that refuse to put in at least minimum effort into learning the game and their class. Those people that usually ran around the open world smashing random buttons and still are pleasantly surprised that they suddenly can mow down their foes there, having no clue about actual numbers (cuz things like arc are evil elitist stuff and must be banned!!111) . Those now feel confident enough to tackle raids because somehow the word got spread ingame that "now they can keep up with the big bois!", not knowing they absolutely can not (anymore). Nerfing it even more by adjusting numbers won't change that. Can't blame them, even the numbest of those players must have reckognized the sheer amount of green abominations suddenly being around everywhere, so it's quite likely they asked in chat at some point.

Anecdotal story from last nights raids: due to holidays just half our static had time. No big deal, let's just do the easy w1-4, we got all crucial roles covered, always easy to find dps... oh boy were we wrong. Not only 80% of dps players that joined were mechs (so 4 out of 5), out of those four, 75% constantly showed that had no idea how to actually play the spec and just ran on auto-mode and doing stupid things. 

tl;dr: to clean up the Mech mess, the class first needs to become harder to play until it's not attractive anymore to the aforementioned crowd. It can then be turned in a LI spec again later, but then it needs to be done correctly from the get go aka no auto-cast, reasonable numbers, reasonable required player input. But since this would require a longer process over the next months, I strongly doubt it will happen and the community has to deal with it.

Edited by Nash.2681
typo
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5 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

tl;dr: to clean up the Mech mess, the class first needs to become harder to play until it's not attractive anymore to the aforementioned crowd. It can then be turned in a LI spec again later, but then it needs to be done correctly from the get go aka no auto-cast, reasonable numbers, reasonable required player input. But since this would require a longer process over the next months, I strongly doubt it will happen and the community has to deal with it.

People still ride the "Mech OP" train, join anything as Mech, because it's "easy and strong", then sit in the middle with mediocre DPS any other profession could reach with similiar effort. 
I've seen so many people say that Power Mech is broken and it's very easy to get top DPS and then proceed to sit between the boonDPS and healers.

Mech is strong and doesn't require you to memorize a novel to play it, but the bare minimum of that build is no longer enough to be the best.

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On 12/26/2022 at 12:19 AM, Mariyuuna.6508 said:

You're confusing burst DPS with sustained damage. If the game was only about burst damage, then Bladesworn would be king, and no one would ever bother to bring a Machinist to a fight. For a Bladesworn a 100k isn't even a burst, its literally just a single hit, yet outside of raid speedruns its one of the most unpopular options to play.

 

Do you not understand why players chose classes with a high sustained DPS even if it has a low burst? Burst capability is also not so important outside of phased bosses.

Most bosses are phased. Sustained dps only matters in raids and 100cm dark ai. Fractals are indeed mostly about burst.

Most players in gw2 chose the class which requires the least effort. Like mechanist or even kitless pbm sword holo.

Bladesworn is indeed king in most content btw. the 2min golem dps is not useful for fractals. 10sec dps matters much more. Most raidbosses have 30sec phases.

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On 12/27/2022 at 10:50 PM, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

People still ride the "Mech OP" train, join anything as Mech, because it's "easy and strong", then sit in the middle with mediocre DPS any other profession could reach with similiar effort. 
I've seen so many people say that Power Mech is broken and it's very easy to get top DPS and then proceed to sit between the boonDPS and healers.

Mech is strong and doesn't require you to memorize a novel to play it, but the bare minimum of that build is no longer enough to be the best.

HAM still king of support, spam 1 get everything and top heal

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  • 4 weeks later...
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1 hour ago, noneHotBuildTest.7251 said:

Arena Net have a bias for Mecha to keep buff it.
Is the Mecha supposed to be that strong ? NO.
Should any class be this strong for such a low risk? No.

 

That's a condi mech. It's not a simple rotation at all. There are plenty of other specs that do better than it and have similar rotations.

You won't do that sort of damage in a raid or strike with condi mech. There is too much going on.

Edited by Graymatter.4723
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