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[BALANCING] What specs need tuning and why?


Sahne.6950
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Just wanted to hear the general feeling in the community regarding balance.

 

3 Simple Questions / Tasks:      

What is your general feeling concerning the current meta? Do you like it?

What do you think is a contender for a nerf.  And why?

And what spec do you feel like could use a buff. And what would you like to see buffed?

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imma start. ^_^

I like the current meta.   I am glad that alot of the "spam and pray" builds are gone, for Example specter in its prenerfed form was a nightmare to fight.  I am also glad that finally Spellbreaker and Mesmer are a viable picks.    I think there is alot of strong build, for example holo, Chrono, Catalyst.... but most of them have good counterplay available and they are definitely not unbeatable.

COMPARED TO EARLIER STATES OF PVP.... WHAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE IS QUITE ALRIGHT, NGL. 

 

Contender for a nerf?   Nothing.   There is some stuff thats pretty bonkers and kind of frustrating. Mesmer can pretty much 100-10 you out of stealth... and double moa is a diffrent kind of frustration. But Builds like that trade alot of sustain to reach that damage... so im mighty fine with it. If you know how, you can deal with pretty much any build thats around currently.

 

What could use a buff?  Core Engie, Swordweaver needs Hard CC or a root somewhere, because right now its borderline impossible to land a good pyrovortex. Renegade.... Renegade is just all around awful right now. It needs more cleanse, and it needs a tiny bit more Damage. Renegade is pretty much nonexistend in pvp.   Druid also is in serious need of more love, to make it a truely viable support that competes with Supguard and tempest.

Edited by Sahne.6950
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I don't think balance is particularly bad between classes as far as a meta goes. At least it's not like, the Firebrand/Scourge days.

The thing I dislike the most and think needs nerfed the most is just how much free stuff everyone gets. Mostly powercreep stuff. A lot of the top specs get a ton of things like condi cleanse, sustain, and boons basically for free. It was true for a lot of PoF specs too (and HoT ones though that felt a lot less egregious to me). Don't see that changing much though, since it would require a big overhaul of the entire game and the last time that was tried it was the Feb 2020 patch which didn't improve things, imo.

I've only played condi zerk/core this season cause fire is fun and I'd like for it to get some buffs, but in a more general sense, I think where a lot of weaker specs struggle currently has a large amount to do with just not getting as much as others.

They talked about it in terms of "tickets" or whatever, but when does that actually result in significant design changes to those underperformers? A bunch of the top performers just.. win out in basically everything? Damage, mobility, survivability, boons, pretty much everything. Vindicator relative to Renegade, Bladesworn (pre-nerf) relative to the rest of warrior, and so on. If it's not likely that we see a reduction in overall powercreep, start slapping stuff onto weak specs to bring them up to a similar level.

Edited by Shagie.7612
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13 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

I don't think balance is particularly bad between classes as far as a meta goes. At least it's not like, the Firebrand/Scourge days.

The thing I dislike the most and think needs nerfed the most is just how much free stuff everyone gets. Mostly powercreep stuff. A lot of the top specs get a ton of things like condi cleanse, sustain, and boons basically for free. It was true for a lot of PoF specs too (and HoT ones though that felt a lot less egregious to me). Don't see that changing much though, since it would require a big overhaul of the entire game and the last time that was tried it was the Feb 2020 patch which didn't improve things, imo.

I've only played condi zerk/core this season cause fire is fun and I'd like for it to get some buffs, but in a more general sense, I think where a lot of weaker specs struggle currently has a large amount to do with just not getting as much as others.

They talked about it in terms of "tickets" or whatever, but when does that actually result in significant design changes to those underperformers? A bunch of the top performers just.. win out in basically everything? Damage, mobility, survivability, boons, pretty much everything. Vindicator relative to Renegade, Bladesworn (pre-nerf) relative to the rest of warrior, and so on. If it's not likely that we see a reduction in overall powercreep, start slapping stuff onto weak specs to bring them up to a similar level.

i can get behind the " gets stuff for free" BIG TIME.

Sometimes you start hitting someone in the FFA, but hes afk...  And im just like....  WHY DOES HE HAVE 6 DIFFRENT BOONS ON HIM!?   8 seconds protection!?!?! THIS GUY IS AFK!?

If you are just looking at the boonbar of someone that is fighting... the diffrence between corespecs and EoD specs is night and day. A Mechanist that is afk will poop out 5 diffrent boons from some random trait interactions, While a Core Freshair is literally unable to maintain fury for more than 4 seconds.

 

Edited by Sahne.6950
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Needs Nerfing: Power Untamed (Nature's Binding Specifically. Port maul is tentatively fine but not after a ward that spawns ON you and interrupts your actions, pls. Thanks.),  Condi Ranger (Immob uptime and stun angle of concussive shot specifically), Virtuoso.

 

Needs Buffing: Power Berserker, Power Thief, Condi Revenant. 

 

Edited by Azure The Heartless.3261
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12 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

imma start. ^_^

I like the current meta.   I am glad that alot of the "spam and pray" builds are gone, for Example specter in its prenerfed form was a nightmare to fight.  I am also glad that finally Spellbreaker and Mesmer are a viable picks.    I think there is alot of strong build, for example holo, Chrono, Catalyst.... but most of them have good counterplay available and they are definitely not unbeatable.

COMPARED TO EARLIER STATES OF PVP.... WHAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE IS QUITE ALRIGHT, NGL. 

 

Contender for a nerf?   Nothing.   There is some stuff thats pretty bonkers and kind of frustrating. Mesmer can pretty much 100-10 you out of stealth... and double moa is a diffrent kind of frustration. But Builds like that trade alot of sustain to reach that damage... so im mighty fine with it. If you know how, you can deal with pretty much any build thats around currently.

 

What could use a buff?  Core Engie, Swordweaver needs Hard CC or a root somewhere, because right now its borderline impossible to land a good pyrovortex. Renegade.... Renegade is just all around awful right now. It needs more cleanse, and it needs a tiny bit more Damage. Renegade is pretty much nonexistend in pvp.   Druid also is in serious need of more love, to make it a truely viable support that competes with Supguard and tempest.

Sword weaver already has three ccs being two of then ublocable.  Being then hard to hit is called balance cuz weaver is an already good build as dueler on node.  If u want to easy hit the ult cc go for blink and lose some sustain to gain utility wich is the fair thing.

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3 biggest outstanding problems with class balance imo:

  1. Tool Holo is grossly overperforming. It's running wild Hulkamania style. This build is not problematic in middle to lower tiers but it is too strong in high tiered play. The problem is that it perfectly cycles super hard offensive pressure both nuclear damage and machine gun CCs, right into tight defenses that last just long enough for all the offensive output to cycle back for use right when the defenses go on CD, rinse & repeat. There is no opening to counter play against correctly played Tools Holo unless you have a lot of unblockables or just plainly greatly outskill the Tools Holo. Even with a lot of Stability, you can't trade blows with it during its offensive cycles because it will deal more damage than you do. Only a handful of builds are able to deal with this build in 1v1 situations. It has too much. I would say the exact problem came into play when they lowered the CDs of too many of the defensive utilities. Some of its skills need the ICDs to go back up. 
  2. Vindicator is still a bit too bully on side nodes with its kiting potential and unusually large sudden DPS output. My problem with it is its ability to hold node cap progress during all of the defensive play. To sum up what's wrong with this in a nusthell, look at it like this: Mesmers do the same kind of thing but they lose cap progress during invulns or stealths. Same with Ele invulns = lose cap progress. Same with any other build that is designed around face tanking on nodes to hold caps, they revolve around defensive mechanics that make them lose cap progress during all that overly defensive play. Vindicator however, does not lose node cap progress at all during its ridiculously defensive play. I feel like traited abilities that turn Vindicator dodging into actual skill spam, should be counted as invulns for the sake of making them lose cap progress during the use of the dodge.
  3. Untamed Unnatural Traversal - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) needs to lose the 50% CD reduction on strike. This skill should not be being spammed every 20 seconds. Nature's Binding - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) <- It has no telegraph, it lasts too long, and the circles of binding are too small a radius to where you can't do anything while inside of them unless you want to get yourself CC'd into the binding walls. IE: Spectral Ring or Ring Of Warding are big enough to where if you stand on the left edge while inside of them and dodge roll to the right, there is at least room to counter play. Nature's Binding though, you can't do anything inside of it other than stand still and use blocks, invulns, or simply get pummeled in the face because you can't move at all. The only counter play vs. Nature's Binding is having a lot of on-demand Stability to be able to walk out of it, which not every class can do. This skill needs a clear telegraph and the radius of the Nature's Binding to be at least twice what it is now.
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11 hours ago, NotFound.7813 said:

Sword weaver already has three ccs being two of then ublocable.  Being then hard to hit is called balance cuz weaver is an already good build as dueler on node.  If u want to easy hit the ult cc go for blink and lose some sustain to gain utility wich is the fair thing.

your living in the past. Your... basicly stuck in 2021....Weaver is dogtier for sidenoding....

Weaver is in despereate need of some love right now. If you dont see that. you havent played it since EoD launched.  

Weaver per say is good. But it simply looses every matchup against the current metaspecs. THERE IS NOT A SINGLE MATCHUP THAT FAVORS THE WEAVER.

This is because alot of Swords dps needs your enemy to be stationary.

However with the mobilitycreep and overall powercreep that we are seeing, a simple 1 second knockdown  or even a single Gale wont do the job anymore. Everyone poops stabi like Cata, or is spamming evades nonstop and evn if you land a burst will sustain right back up like vindi, or it will simply Vomit CC on you like toolsholo... yada yada.

Have you played weaver recently xD?    since the "Evasive Arcana" bug and EoD launch. Weaver is MIIIILES away from being viable if you go anything higher than gold. They fixed evasive arcana, but weaver still cant compete....   THATS WHY THEY BUFF IT!  Look at the patchnots, anet thinks the same as i do, that Weaver needs some love, but they are buffing the wrong area... its not the dmg thats lacking(they increase the burnstacks), its the ability to land this damage.

When was the last time you saw a SwordWeaver in a MAT?   When was the last time you saw a Swordweaver in ranked? Atleast over here in p2... you dont see any.

Edited by Sahne.6950
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On 11/23/2022 at 9:44 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

your living in the past. Your... basicly stuck in 2021....Weaver is dogtier for sidenoding....

Weaver is in despereate need of some love right now. If you dont see that. you havent played it since EoD launched.  

Weaver per say is good. But it simply looses every matchup against the current metaspecs. THERE IS NOT A SINGLE MATCHUP THAT FAVORS THE WEAVER.

This is because alot of Swords dps needs your enemy to be stationary.

However with the mobilitycreep and overall powercreep that we are seeing, a simple 1 second knockdown  or even a single Gale wont do the job anymore. Everyone poops stabi like Cata, or is spamming evades nonstop and evn if you land a burst will sustain right back up like vindi, or it will simply Vomit CC on you like toolsholo... yada yada.

Have you played weaver recently xD?    since the "Evasive Arcana" bug and EoD launch. Weaver is MIIIILES away from being viable if you go anything higher than gold. They fixed evasive arcana, but weaver still cant compete....   THATS WHY THEY BUFF IT!  Look at the patchnots, anet thinks the same as i do, that Weaver needs some love, but they are buffing the wrong area... its not the dmg thats lacking(they increase the burnstacks), its the ability to land this damage.

When was the last time you saw a SwordWeaver in a MAT?   When was the last time you saw a Swordweaver in ranked? Atleast over here in p2... you dont see any.

Weaver is not Meta generally on purpose cause it ends up dodge bot style when its op, which is also weird cause Vindicator exists. 
Ele also has Tempest and Catalyst in the meta and Catalyst has the same job as Weaver but it is also more effective in larger fights , Anet just made it redundant.  

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The current meta isn't bad at all imo.

 

I would nerf Skirmisher Shot on Deadeye by decreasing the damage or increasing the initiative. I would rework slick shoes into something more like blast gyro but faster. It's current state isn't coded well.  I'd make earth shield a longer CD.

 

I'd buff condition revenant. I'd give core ele a water field on a dagger or a utility. I'd buff scourge barrier. I'd give Air a cleanse trait that competes with lightning rod and FA.

Edited by Tycura.1982
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12 hours ago, Tycura.1982 said:

I would nerf Skirmisher Shot on Deadeye by decreasing the damage or increasing the initiative. I would rework slick shoes into something more like blast gyro but faster. It's current state isn't coded well.  I'd make earth shield a longer CD.

What exactly do you mean with that? That slick shoes should not leave behind puddles which CC you, but CCs enemies surrounding the engineer instead? Or how do you mean "blast gyro but faster"?

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On 11/22/2022 at 10:54 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

What is your general feeling concerning the current meta? Do you like it?

Too much mobility. This leads to no proper teamfights. I don't like it, bcoz I like everlasting teamfights. But some people would love current way since meta is floating towards preFeb2020 state.

 

On 11/22/2022 at 10:54 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

What do you think is a contender for a nerf.  And why?

Earth shield and untamed.

But ele will be nerfed bcoz untamed can't kill it with 1 combo. Ask why.

And every EoD spec basically.

 

On 11/22/2022 at 10:54 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

And what spec do you feel like could use a buff. And what would you like to see buffed?

Every spec with low mobility should be buffed with either more tankiness or more damage.

Also you can hate me for it, but I think supports should be buffed.

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I'd say untamed, catalyst, tempest, holo, chrono could use some slight nerfs.

 

I'd be happy if power willbender got some buffs too, I'm making the condi version work in PvP (sort of), but it is pretty weak. 

 

I wouldn't mind some slight adjustments to aegis heal on core guardian too. I think it was nerfed a bit too hard. Should give 1k+ healing when specced into healing power. Would also help firebrand heal a lot.

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On 11/25/2022 at 5:46 AM, Kodama.6453 said:

What exactly do you mean with that? That slick shoes should not leave behind puddles which CC you, but CCs enemies surrounding the engineer instead? Or how do you mean "blast gyro but faster"?

Yeah. Enemies in a PBAoE with a slight delay after activation. Right now it's instantaneous with no activation tell if you're in melee range. Holo forces you into melee range. Also it can go off twice.

Edited by Tycura.1982
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2 hours ago, Tycura.1982 said:

Yeah. Enemies in a PBAoE with a slight delay after activation. Right now it's instantaneous with no activation tell if you're in melee range. Holo forces you into melee range. Also it can go off twice.

The skill does literally nothing else but CC... I don't think delaying that CC is warranted. If it would work like that, then it literally is just a worse version of blast gyro.

Blast Gyro: Delayed CC (stun), might, fire combo field + blast finisher
Blast Gyro Toolbelt: AoE superspeed and stunbreak

Slick Shoes: Delayed CC (knock down)..... that's it
Slick Shoes Toolbelt: superspeed and stunbreak just for yourself

PvP is the only environment in which slick shoes even sees play, can we please not kill the skill by making it just a worse version of another skill on engineer? That it is instant is basically the only advantage this skill has over other CC skills, since other skills tend to do other stuff on top and this one just has the knock down.

Edited by Kodama.6453
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25 minutes ago, DtenCfour.3567 said:

As it pertains to what?  PVE, WvW, PvP..... WTH are you talking about?

Little advice, pay attention to what subforum you are in. This thread here is in the PvP subforum, so I guess you can figure out which of these environments is meant.

Edited by Kodama.6453
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45 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

The skill does literally nothing else but CC... I don't think delaying that CC is warranted. If it would work like that, then it literally is just a worse version of blast gyro.

Blast Gyro: Delayed CC (stun), might, fire combo field + blast finisher
Blast Gyro Toolbelt: AoE superspeed and stunbreak

Slick Shoes: Delayed CC (knock down)..... that's it
Slick Shoes Toolbelt: superspeed and stunbreak just for yourself

PvP is the only environment in which slick shoes even sees play, can we please not kill the skill by making it just a worse version of another skill on engineer? That it is instant is basically the only advantage this skill has over other CC skills, since other skills tend to do other stuff on top and this one just has the knock down.

Disingenuous not to include the low CD stunbreak+SS that it comes with

Edited by Tycura.1982
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1 hour ago, Tycura.1982 said:

Disingenuous not to include the low CD stunbreak+SS that it comes with

Erm, I did list it? It's right in the quote of yours there, I listed what blast gyro and slick shoes exactly do, including both their toolbelt skills.

Also, please look at both their toolbelt skills of slick shoes and blast gyro. They both do exactly the same thing, just with blast gyro being better with the next patch. Both are going to give 3 seconds superspeed and break stuns on 25 seconds cooldown. The only difference between them is that bypass coating does it in AoE (both, the superspeed and stunbreak).

Edited by Kodama.6453
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