A Reaper Build That Has No Problem Getting Hit: The Immortal Valkyrie

[Machineuzi.5604]

11 minutes ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

I clarified that it does more RAW damage (before mods) just by having more power and crit.

Huh?

[Obtena.7952]

30 minutes ago, Hindenburg.3415 said:

 

Yep. It's 26k now instead of 28k.

Total trash.

Unplayable.

Literally being carried.

What a garbage.

Totally burden to a team.

I mean what the hell is this ?

How anyone can handle this ?

We handle this exactly as we always have ... we simply let meta pushers self impose restrictions on their build choices to the point where they decide they can't play the game based on those restrictions. Even the most stubborn ones don't stick around.  For the people that play how they want, the game will simply continue to let them do that. 

But back to the topic ... the Valk Reaper is a more than capable build and also pretty safe for lots of people to play as well and one of the least worrysome builds for healers to deal with. Overall, it's a decent entry for new players.

When Soul Barbs gets 15 seconds next week, the value of being able to stay in Reaper for that Soul Barb duration only means VIT stat becomes more valuable to Reaper. I'm sure that will get some sideways looks from people pushing Reaper to get meta level DPS performance.  

Edited November 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Dr Meta.3158]

The rise in gaslighting in modern societies is why I say abnormal psychology should be a mandatory course along with home economics and tools in primary schools.

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

The rise in gaslighting in modern societies is why I say abnormal psychology should be a mandatory course along with home economics and tools in primary schools.

Agreed. It's not healthy for the game for people doing the meta pushing to distort the reality of how the game is intended to work to manipulate others in believing playing meta is the only viable way to play. 

There are some good reasons for people to use Valk Reaper and posts indicating it's 'garbage' because not high DPS are just more of the same we have been hearing forever to discourage people to examine the wide range of options available to them. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[REMagic.8937]

47 minutes ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

I clarified that it does more RAW damage (before mods) just by having more power and crit. dmg THAN FULL ZERKER. Nobody is taking about any other build.

Now I am a bit confused by that statement - what do you mean with "before modifiers"? Because those modifiers do apply anyway, right? So why would we be interested in damage before modifiers? If you are looking at Decimate Defences vs Soul Eater, don't you think it would be fair to include the 10% modifier from Soul Eater in the comparison?

I am genuinely trying to understand.

Edited November 25, 2022 by REMagic.8937

[REMagic.8937]

40 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

When Soul Barbs gets 15 seconds next week, the value of being able to stay in Reaper for that Soul Barb duration only means VIT stat becomes more valuable to Reaper. I'm sure that will get some sideways looks from people pushing Reaper to get meta level DPS performance.  

When you make this argument - do you mean you stay longer in shroud because you can tank more damage with it? Because the passive life force consumption (5% per second) is the same regardless. In particular, staying for 15 seconds sounds like something you can only do when you have a lot of life force. The Full Berserker build does around 12 seconds of Shroud in its normal rotation.

Edited November 25, 2022 by REMagic.8937

[Nephalem.8921]

12 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

No, you're not losing damage by taking Valkyrie over berserker gear. You're swapping Soul Eater for the precision trait that gives you crit chance on mass, which enables you to lose precision (a stat that caps at 100%) and take runes that are less reliant on flanking to do competitive damage. Sites like SC don't account for the simple truth that flanking is a huge burden, made exponentially worse the worse your group is.

Yes you are losing dmg. Also getting a bit back but overall its a loss. You will race the alac mech.

12 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Most meta build sites are also speed clear focused. The idea of sacking ~1k damage to make a build smoother is antithetical to their whole mission. They want to offer the most dps build to you, which isn't always a good build for normal players.

This optimization to the detriment of a build's functionality is then used as evidence to suggest the specialization is ineffective.

You see people arguing that the glass cannon reaper build should be doing around 37-38k dps, but remember that if that build is doing 37-38k, this very tanky, easy to play, and survivable build is doing 35-36k.

Have you ever played a condi build? Almost every condi build can go full trailblazer while still doing 35k. Also reaper has a lot of hp but no sustain. soul eater adds sustain and might help you more in encounters than some extra hp.

12 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Most of the suggestions for buffing this class are just adjustments to their scaling coefficients. This build benefits pretty much just as heavily from those buffs as the glass cannon meta build.

This build doing practically top tier dps would be incredibly unbalanced. I can't see how anyone could justify it being so strong, yet they are. 

You clearly have no clue how many busted high dps tanky builds exist. And they would still be better than a 35k valk reaper.

[Nephalem.8921]

9 hours ago, Hindenburg.3415 said:

 

Yep. It's 26k now instead of 28k.

Total trash.

Unplayable.

Literally being carried.

What a garbage.

Totally burden to a team.

I mean what the hell is this ?

How anyone can handle this ?

Thats the dps of alac mech and kinda on par with power alac ren. worse than condi alac ren. Yeah it is total trash for a pure dps without any support.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Nephalem.8921

[draxynnic.3719]

The principle espoused here is well known among solo buildcrafters.

In group content, though...you're still basically a selfish DPS who does the damage of a DPS support without offering the support. Nobody cares if you're the last to be downed before a /gg unless you have some means of getting everyone else up, and in that case you need to demonstrate that you can beat bloodscourge at that job. Generally speaking, it's better to learn how to avoid taking hits in the first place (virtuoso is very good at this) than to accept a ~10k DPS loss in exchange for being able to take them. I could see a build like this working as a training tool to learn mechanics with a forgiving build while being carried by more experienced players, but otherwise it's pretty much a novelty build for endgame content.

Now, if reaper was buffed to around 35k, maybe trading 3-5k DPS for survivability might be worth it.

[Hindenburg.3415]

1 hour ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Thats the dps of alac mech and kinda on par with power alac ren. worse than condi alac ren. Yeah it is total trash for a pure dps without any support.

 

Sure. Absolute trash. No way you can complete any encounter with it.

Absolutely unplayable.  Garbage. Because I am sure that bosses were balanced around some arbitrary rules players created for themselves.

I think I forgot something...Ah yes , 

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

while being carried by more experienced players

"being carried".

 

Because of course doing 20k dps instead of 30k means that you are doing nothing.

And who cares that Teapot achieved  full clear under 2h while using 7 necros ( mostly scourges ) with 20-25k dps on average.

Probably someone should inform him that defensive comps are bad and they all were carried by other 3 squad members.

 

 

[mandala.8507]

All I can say is, I've already workshopped my updates to the rotation on this build based on the previewed changes and if they happen to cave and overbuff it on Tuesday, I won't complain. I'll just be top dps in all my groups on a build I actually enjoy.

[felincyriac.5981]

I'd be embarrassed to play a selfish dps build that does less damage than support builds...

 

So much COPE in this thread.

 

 

[Nash.2681]

3 hours ago, Hindenburg.3415 said:

And who cares that Teapot achieved  full clear under 2h while using 7 necros ( mostly scourges ) with 20-25k dps on average.

Probably someone should inform him that defensive comps are bad and they all were carried by other 3 squad members.

Well, guess you're refering to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvtKY3bsfPk 

Besides that was only 6 scourges, you're aware that

- Teapot usually plays with people from the upper skill floor, so you can't compare those videos with what you get in your average PUG

- the video was recorded pre Epi and barrier nerf 

- the whole squad was pre-built and every scourge contributed to squad support (something Reaper simply can't besides some cc)

- no one ever said that you can't clear content in a reasonable time with suboptimal builds/weird compositions. Ofc this is easily possible if you have a) good players and b) good communication while forming the squad and during the run. Unfortunatly both are not mandatory when you join a random lfg squad, no matter what requirements it has. 

 

[NovaanVerdiano.6174]

14 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

We handle this exactly as we always have ... we simply let meta pushers self impose restrictions on their build choices to the point where they decide they can't play the game based on those restrictions. Even the most stubborn ones don't stick around.  For the people that play how they want, the game will simply continue to let them do that. 

 

You can play and enjoy an underperforming spec while realising it is underperforming and ask for buffs. It won't hurt you if Reaper does more damage, I promise.

 

14 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

But back to the topic ... the Valk Reaper is a more than capable build and also pretty safe for lots of people to play as well and one of the least worrysome builds for healers to deal with. Overall, it's a decent entry for new players.

 

I'm sure healers love not being able to heal a low HP Reaper because they have jumped into shroud out of panic and now need to very closely watch them to get them asap in case of them leaving shroud at a bad time.

 

14 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

When Soul Barbs gets 15 seconds next week, the value of being able to stay in Reaper for that Soul Barb duration only means VIT stat becomes more valuable to Reaper. I'm sure that will get some sideways looks from people pushing Reaper to get meta level DPS performance.  

 

Do you know that you lose 5% of your shroud every tick

 

 

Frankly glad most of y'all aren't allowed anywhere near the game's balance

[Obtena.7952]

35 minutes ago, NovaanVerdiano.6174 said:

Do you know that you lose 5% of your shroud every tick

Yes I do.

Do you know that more VIT helps you stay in RS longer than if you didn't have it because your LF absorbs damage you take? Seems doubtful based on your inquiry to me about the 5% tick.  I mean, what do you think people just go off and stand in a corner and not get hit for 20 seconds when they go into RS so the extra VIT doesn't matter on a Reaper build? 😐

That 5% just means you cap RS duration at 20 seconds, not including other LF regain effects that work during RS. Indeed, the sentiment that 'y'all' aren't allowed anywhere near the game's balance is mutual. 

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

Quote

everyone is wrong but me

hehe, those bois 🤣

[NovaanVerdiano.6174]

36 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yes I do.

Do you know that more VIT helps you stay in RS longer than if you didn't have it because your LF absorbs damage you take? Seems doubtful based on your inquiry to me about the 5% tick.  I mean, what do you think people just go off and stand in a corner and not get hit for 20 seconds when they go into RS so the extra VIT doesn't matter on a Reaper build? 😐

That 5% just means you cap RS duration at 20 seconds, not including other LF regain effects that work during RS. Indeed, the sentiment that 'y'all' aren't allowed anywhere near the game's balance is mutual. 

 

 

 

Okay, I'll entertain you:

 

The build is, clearly, targeted at less experienced players. The type of player who is more prone to eat hits and pop shroud out of panic. I will bring up the fact that Reaper cannot be healed in Shroud again, because this *is* important. So what you have is a supposedly sound foundation for a build that trades DPS for tankiness and loses around 2-3k on a golem (which, in reality is more due to various factors). Then you go and add Scholar runes, a (yes) conditional bonus that requires you to stay above 90% HP. In a build aimed at people who will inevitably facetank hits. On a spec that cannot be healed while in its "second HP bar", something the players of this build will often fall back on for the sake of surviving in the split second. Damage still hurts even with more HP, draining your Shroud rather quickly regardless. Who is the real target audience for this build? If you facetank, why Scholar? Your uptime is gonna be shoddy more likely than not. If you don't facetank or try not to, why Valk in the first place? And that's just one contradiction in the build.

 

This doesn't even touch on the fact that there's things that will straight up delete your Shroud if you get hit by them, or fights like VG where Reaper is basically unplayable (though in that particular case, it is due to community strats) or any of the other issues Reaper has.

 

All this build does is not know what its true goal is despite acting like it does while also promoting bad play cause "lmao I can just facetank it who cares".

[NovaanVerdiano.6174]

5 hours ago, Hindenburg.3415 said:

 

Sure. Absolute trash. No way you can complete any encounter with it.

Absolutely unplayable.  Garbage. Because I am sure that bosses were balanced around some arbitrary rules players created for themselves.

I think I forgot something...Ah yes , 

"being carried".

 

Because of course doing 20k dps instead of 30k means that you are doing nothing.

And who cares that Teapot achieved  full clear under 2h while using 7 necros ( mostly scourges ) with 20-25k dps on average.

Probably someone should inform him that defensive comps are bad and they all were carried by other 3 squad members.

 

 

Why do people always completely stretch it? Of course you can complete any encounter with it because no encounter requires you to have ten people in the squad, not even HT CM. Reaper could do 10k DPS and it could still clear because no DPS check in the game is tight enough that it matters.

 

But you can't seriously think that doing less damage than a support build on a full, selfish DPS build is acceptable balance.

[Nephalem.8921]

2 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

Well, guess you're refering to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvtKY3bsfPk 

Besides that was only 6 scourges, you're aware that

- Teapot usually plays with people from the upper skill floor, so you can't compare those videos with what you get in your average PUG

- the video was recorded pre Epi and barrier nerf 

- the whole squad was pre-built and every scourge contributed to squad support (something Reaper simply can't besides some cc)

- no one ever said that you can't clear content in a reasonable time with suboptimal builds/weird compositions. Ofc this is easily possible if you have a) good players and b) good communication while forming the squad and during the run. Unfortunatly both are not mandatory when you join a random lfg squad, no matter what requirements it has. 

 

you forgot to mention that scourge was ~38k dps during that time aswell. Basically a top tier dps build.

[Hindenburg.3415]

2 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

Teapot usually plays with people from the upper skill floor, so you can't compare those videos with what you get in your average PUG

 

And ? You think it takes more skill to play 30k hp scourge than your traditional meta glass cannon ?

 

2 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

- the video was recorded pre Epi and barrier nerf 

 

 

And ? I was making a point about general strategy not about performance of specific build.

 

2 hours ago, Nash.2681 said:

- no one ever said that you can't clear content in a reasonable time with suboptimal builds/weird compositions. Ofc this is easily possible if you have a) good players and b) good communication while forming the squad and during the run. Unfortunatly both are not mandatory when you join a random lfg squad, no matter what requirements it has. 

 

 

Exactly. Your experience and communication are much more important factors than build you play.

55 minutes ago, NovaanVerdiano.6174 said:

Why do people always completely stretch it? Of course you can complete any encounter with it because no encounter requires you to have ten people in the squad, not even HT CM. Reaper could do 10k DPS and it could still clear because no DPS check in the game is tight enough that it matters.

 

 

Yes. Finally.

59 minutes ago, NovaanVerdiano.6174 said:

But you can't seriously think that doing less damage than a support build on a full, selfish DPS build is acceptable balance.

 

I care only about balance based on game encounters not on player-invented categories and arbitrary rules.

 

[Nash.2681]

37 minutes ago, Hindenburg.3415 said:

 

And ? You think it takes more skill to play 30k hp scourge than your traditional meta glass cannon ?

Didn't talk about the dps, at least not alone (though you would be surprised how many scourges out there struggle to get even close to those numbers), more about mechanics and special role execution and overall gameplay (positioning, dmg mitigation, dps uptime while not playing mech, etc.). You know, those things many if not a lot of players struggle.

 

And ? I was making a point about general strategy not about performance of specific build.

You should be aware that some strategies can only be executed if the player skill of the entire squad allows for it. Giving an example of a squad that could easily do a video of "all green gear raid fc speed run" is a poor benchmark for build balance. They are the outlier that will always get things done.

 

Exactly. Your experience and communication are much more important factors than build you play.

Correct. And if you had the slightest experience with instanced content with PUGs in this game, you'd know that the vast majority you meet through lfg is so far off this standards, it's not even funny. If you play exclusively in a static, then this whole discussion is irrelevant. If you have to or simply like to play with random people, build balance and expectable performance suddenly becomes very relevant.

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Nash.2681

[Nash.2681]

1 hour ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

you forgot to mention that scourge was ~38k dps during that time aswell. Basically a top tier dps build.

You're correct. Thought this was obvious, but I forgot who I was talking to. So thanks for pointing this out.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, Hindenburg.3415 said:

I care only about balance based on game encounters not on player-invented categories and arbitrary rules.

The roles that apply in pretty much every encounter and which ArenaNet formally acknowledged in their balance philosophy?

Sure, there are encounter-specific or comp-specific roles outside of those, but fundamentally, 'role' is essentially shorthand for 'what do you bring to the table'. Pure damage is one option, but that carries the assumption of doing comparable damage to other builds that do pure damage. If not, you need to bring something else to the table. Party boons are worth a reduction in personal DPS. Party boons plus healing is worth a larger reduction. Durability can be worth a reduction in personal DPS, especially in solo play, but in group play, that only matters if you can do more with your durability than being the last person standing in a wipe. The roles are a shorthand for what a build brings to the table, as well as a shorthand for what a group wants in order to have the best chance of success. When someone says, for instance, "quickdps", that's a shorthand for "What I bring to the table is moderate damage, quickness, and a few other boons". That's something that's useful in pretty much any group PvE encounter. Now, based on the specific encounter, it might sometimes be more advantageous to also bring stability, or extra CC, or boonstrip, or some other utility, or for your damage to be condi rather than power, and these can all be considered sub-roles, but ultimately, the roles are a way of letting people know what you're bringing without typing everything out every time. It's essentially a way of quickly expressing how you've spent your 'power budget' - is it in boon support, heals plus boons, heals plus barrier and res potential (hello scourge), or just maxing out DPS?

But ultimately, outside of people who are deliberately playing novelty builds (this is the problem with the "But Teapot et al did this..." argument - Teapot et al can clear all raid wings in about two hours if they pull out the stops. They can afford to mess around with weird stuff - many of them are content creators and its part of their business model, and if it doesn't work out, they know they can still smash through everything quickly by reverting to the default setups. This isn't typical of the player base as a whole - my static, for instance, usually schedules 3-4 hours for raids and it's a good week if we fully clear three wings in that time), people expect the people they group with to be playing with a full power budget. Because nobody wants to have a wipe that could have been avoided if someone who was playing a weak build was playing something stronger.

 

Now, what else? Oh, yes. The classic 'build a strawman by quoting out of context':

 

12 hours ago, Hindenburg.3415 said:

I think I forgot something...Ah yes , 

"being carried".

 

Because of course doing 20k dps instead of 30k means that you are doing nothing.

In the scenario that I described? Yes, being carried. Someone who's playing a high-durability build because they don't know the mechanics is probably not reaching the theoretical maximum potential of their build, and probably is largely being carried.

Now, unless the person in question joined an experienced LFG despite not being experienced, there's no shame in this. Everyone has to learn sometime, and most raiders have probably had a "just focusing on surviving to the end of the encounter while more experienced players carry" phase when learning a new encounter. In a static or would-be static, the more experienced players would largely see this as an investment. But I'd expect more experienced players to stop needing that crutch and to be able to contribute something more than mid-level DPS. Whether that's higher DPS, or coupling mid-level DPS with some other benefit to the group. Now, if we were confident that we could beat the encounter anyway and someone really wanted to bring a reaper than sure, if we're going to win anyway, who cares? But just because you're fine with playing at a handicap because you know you'll win despite it does not mean that the handicap isn't there.

12 hours ago, Hindenburg.3415 said:

And who cares that Teapot achieved  full clear under 2h while using 7 necros ( mostly scourges ) with 20-25k dps on average.

Probably someone should inform him that defensive comps are bad and they all were carried by other 3 squad members.

This comes back to the 'power budget' I was talking about. Scourge works because it adds a lot of extra durability not just to yourself, but to the entire squad (yes, scourge mechanics mean they can get past the usual 5-player cap on allies affected, unless that's been changed since), as well as having pretty much unparalleled res potential. You're giving up damage, but in exchange you bring a lot of "I did not give you permission to die!" to the table. Reaper... doesn't do that. You could, theoretically, run Transfusion on a reaper, but that's fiddlier to use than on a scourge, involves a significant loss of DPS (probably lower than the scourge), and you don't have the barrier, condi removal, and other party support that scourge has. The problem with reaper, in a nutshell, is that it just isn't playing with a full power budget in endgame conditions. A group might choose to spend their budget in different ways, such as focusing on durability and adequate damage rather than maximum damage, but with reaper... sure, you could say the damage is adequate, but adequate damage while bringing little else to the table is still inferior to adequate damage plus boons or adequate damage plus massive res potential.

 

Seriously, apart from sophistry and making snide insinuations about people who are advocating for change, what is your endgame here? You could persuade everyone in these threads (all two dozen or so...) that it's wrong to discriminate against people based off their builds even if they're doing 5k damage after joining as a DPS, but it won't change the facts on the ground. People know that reaper is a weak spec for endgame content. People who want to maximise their chance of success are, therefore, going to prefer people in their groups to be playing something stronger. You could keep tilting at this windmill until the cows come home and it won't change in-game behaviour.

Know what would make reaper more accepted in groups, though? Buffing it so it does have a full power budget. Whether in the form of more damage or bringing something else to the table. The OP's build probably would be a practical "trade damage for durability" approach if it was doing, say, around 34k. But at <30k DPS, it becomes a "well, you could be playing blood scourge and doing the same DPS while helping to keep everyone alive" build. 

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, NovaanVerdiano.6174 said:

Okay, I'll entertain you:

I don't get what you are attempting to entertain me with, other than attempts to paint a picture that I don't 'know Reaper has a 5% LF tick'  to portray me as some kind of flake that doesn't know how the game works. 

The build in question has clear intent and purpose. If you don't like it, don't use it but don't be one of these people that craps on anything that isn't optimal. The fact is that this build is going to be a compromise between some DPS for more HP and Reaper uptime ... which is what most people choosing Reaper are looking for in the first place (because I certainly hope you aren't going to tell me anyone is choosing Reaper because of it's DPS right?)

The part that is amusing about this thread is when you see people who say they would be 'embarrassed' to play it or that it's trash because it takes DPS away from an already low DPS spec. That's pretty ironic, considering NO ONE is choosing to play Reaper for its DPS to begin with. Why do they say those things then? because they have an agenda to push optimal play on everyone. 

Who is this build for you ask? Anyone that wants to play it an likes it. I'm never going to get this question from people ... the game lets you play how you want, for whatever reason you use to make your choices.  

Edited November 26, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 11/24/2022 at 11:37 AM, NovaanVerdiano.6174 said:

People have tried to shill Valkyrie Reaper since HoT launch and claimed it's great, it ain't.

Especially now so with changes to Death Perception's crit chance and Ferocity utility food being based heavily off of precision, anyways.

Sorry OP, but this has been talked about for ages.  Even in the days of RShroud decaying significantly slower, it's still not a great stat combo overall for neither PvP nor PvE due to lack of damage and minuscule gains to HP over marauder.

Valkyrie is honestly a dead stat combo.  It's fallen the way of Rampager gear with the power creep over the years and the plethora of nerfs which targeted synergistic skills and effects from patches' past.  Very few builds could use it prior to HoT, and Marauder just has objectively more stat points that make more builds - including all of the ones previously which barely made the stat combo work - perform better across the board.

The tiny gains to vitality practically represent nothing in terms of durability to Marauder, and the loss of crit chance is utterly massive, especially with major crit-cap abilities like Death Perception forcing Reaper into an even further-perception-dependent stat combination to actually deal its primary source of damage: crits.  All of the ferocity in the world does nothing if you don't crit.