A Reaper Build That Has No Problem Getting Hit: The Immortal Valkyrie

[mandala.8507]

9 hours ago, NovaanVerdiano.6174 said:

Do you know that you lose 5% of your shroud every tick

Not the case with this build. We're running Signets of Suffering with Signet of Undeath, letting us regen life force in shroud. Also, our completed auto attack chain generates 1.5% of our life force back. You can stay in shroud for almost a whole minute with this build.

[mandala.8507]

Okay, but just because people are really struggling with what I'm saying here, here's a video of me staying in shroud for ~55 seconds:

With Signets of Suffering traited, we get 4% of our life force back times a factor of 1.1 from the Soul Reaping line times another factor of 1.33 from the trait boost in shroud every 3 seconds in shroud.

On top of this, we get 1.5% back from our last auto attack in the chain times a factor of 1.1 from the Soul Reaping line every time we complete said chain.

Yes, we always lose 5% of our life force per second in shroud. We are also getting a ton back from how we've set our build up. This lets the excess be a valuable defensive tool for us without dropping shroud uptime for our rotation.

With the upcoming changes to Soul Barbs, we'll be able to take advantage of an extended shroud rotation both because of our ability to stay in shroud so long, but also because ALL of our signets still work and are stronger in shroud because we've taken Signets of Suffering.

It is beyond annoying to be told I don't know what I'm talking about by people who understand demonstrably less about this build than I do. Please stop.

[God.5728]

22 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Okay, but just because people are really struggling with what I'm saying here, here's a video of me staying in shroud for ~55 seconds:

With Signets of Suffering traited, we get 4% of our life force back times a factor of 1.1 from the Soul Reaping line times another factor of 1.33 from the trait boost in shroud every 3 seconds in shroud.

On top of this, we get 1.5% back from our last auto attack in the chain times a factor of 1.1 from the Soul Reaping line every time we complete said chain.

Yes, we always lose 5% of our life force per second in shroud. We are also getting a ton back from how we've set our build up. This lets the excess be a valuable defensive tool for us without dropping shroud uptime for our rotation.

With the upcoming changes to Soul Barbs, we'll be able to take advantage of an extended shroud rotation both because of our ability to stay in shroud so long, but also because ALL of our signets still work and are stronger in shroud because we've taken Signets of Suffering.

It is beyond annoying to be told I don't know what I'm talking about by people who understand demonstrably less about this build than I do. Please stop.

 

And what is this supposed to achieve? You do 23k DPS as a selfish DPS (with full boons support) and you can't even do 35k DPS on a stationary golem.

[Infusion.7149]

Disregarding the argumentation in this thread... 

Power quickness harbinger actually exists now unlike in the EoD beta. It does 25K so I am unsure of the goal of hitting <24K with this which is more a solo build. If you use Soul Spiral instead of autoing your shroud won't last as long. If your goal is just to be tanky you would be far better off playing condi (or even scrapper) just due to stat spread.

Power reaper needs buffs outside shroud, this is a given. Just because you "can stay in shroud for 55 seconds" and do 23K which barely even higher than an afk power staff daredevil last I checked it doesn't mean it is a good spec. In most cases you are basically griefing to run this over a power quickness harbinger or condi quickness harbinger let alone condi scourge or harbinger.

On top of this Slothasor is not a good example since there are slublings that die which give life force. Scourge is a far better pick due to barriers and condition conversion even when you are feared. I think if thread was titled accordingly for openworld people would not take issue with it.

[mandala.8507]

4 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Disregarding the argumentation in this thread... 

Power quickness harbinger actually exists now unlike in the EoD beta. It does 25K so I am unsure of the goal of hitting <24K with this which is more a solo build. If you use Soul Spiral instead of autoing your shroud won't last as long. If your goal is just to be tanky you would be far better off playing condi (or even scrapper) just due to stat spread.

Power reaper needs buffs outside shroud, this is a given. Just because you "can stay in shroud for 55 seconds" and do 23K which barely even higher than an afk power staff daredevil last I checked it doesn't mean it is a good spec. In most cases you are basically griefing to run this over a power quickness harbinger or condi quickness harbinger let alone condi scourge or harbinger.

On top of this Slothasor is not a good example since there are slublings that die which give life force. Scourge is a far better pick due to barriers and condition conversion even when you are feared. I think if thread was titled accordingly for openworld people would not take issue with it.

It's not for open world. You're looking at numbers you don't understand and drawing very incorrect conclusions from them. It's fine though, I guess this will just be my personal OP build.

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, mandala.8507 said:

It's not for open world. You're looking at numbers you don't understand and drawing very incorrect conclusions from them. It's fine though, I guess this will just be my personal OP build.

I've been playing something quite similar in openworld when there's lots of trash mobs conducive to power cleave for life force. Your build is by no means unique. In raids/fractals I almost always play scourge when on necro (even when it had 28k bench). The only exception is KC probably, usually I would swap on that and CA/TL. It's similar to when I've played with reapers when goofing around on tempest in lower tier fractals. In T4s it's almost always scourge or harbingers. The difference here is the build above provides close to zero support for other players.

[mandala.8507]

Okay. Since I'm confident about my logic with this build and my predictions, here is the bench of my presumptive future rotation post November 29th balance patch:

Build:

Berserker headpiece, shoulders, gloves, pants, and boots

Valkyrie everything else

Superior runes of the scholar

Staff - superior sigils of force and impact

Greatsword - superior sigils of force and impact

If you run infusions, 18 mighty infusions (not present in this demo)

Food - bowl of sweet and spicy butternut squash soup

Utility - superior sharpening stone

 

Rotation Opener:

1. Chillblains

2. Reaper's Mark

3. Weapon Swap

4. Grasping Darkness

5. Nightfall

6. Well of Suffering

 

Shroud Rotation:

1. Enter Reaper's Shroud

2. Death's Charge

3. Executioner's Scythe

4. Soul Spiral

5. Auto Attack Chain x 1

6. Death's Charge

7. Auto Attack Chain x 2

8. Death's Charge

9. Auto Attack Chain x 2

10. Death's Charge

11. Exit Reaper Shroud

 

Greatsword Rotation Above 50% Health:

1. Gravedigger

2. Death Spiral

3. Auto Attack Chain x 1

4. Grasping Darkness

5. Nightfall

6. Weapon Swap or Well of Suffering into Reaper Shroud

 

Staff Rotation:

1. Mark of Blood

2. Chillblains

3. Putrid Mark

4. Reaper's Mark

5. Weapon Swap or Well of Suffering into Reaper Shroud

 

Greatsword Rotation Below 50% Health:

1. Gravedigger x 4

2. Grasping Darkness

3. Nightfall

4. Weapon Swap or Well of Suffering into Reaper Shroud

We'll see if it holds up or if they change a bunch of things as the patch goes live and I just have to throw this all out the window. Luckily, it didn't take too long to work up.

[stormemperor.3745]

cele reaper works fine

[Machineuzi.5604]

tbh like apart from the mismatch between the goal of being able to tank hits and relying on Scholar etc., it could still pass off as a training or casual build i guess

 

but then again some other specs have damage mitigation/avoidance and sustain literally free and dont need to bend over backwards like this, so idk

[NovaanVerdiano.6174]

10 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't get what you are attempting to entertain me with, other than attempts to paint a picture that I don't 'know Reaper has a 5% LF tick'  to portray me as some kind of flake that doesn't know how the game works. 

The build in question has clear intent and purpose. If you don't like it, don't use it but don't be one of these people that craps on anything that isn't optimal. The fact is that this build is going to be a compromise between some DPS for more HP and Reaper uptime ... which is what most people choosing Reaper are looking for in the first place (because I certainly hope you aren't going to tell me anyone is choosing Reaper because of it's DPS right?)

The part that is amusing about this thread is when you see people who say they would be 'embarrassed' to play it or that it's trash because it takes DPS away from an already low DPS spec. That's pretty ironic, considering NO ONE is choosing to play Reaper for its DPS to begin with. Why do they say those things then? because they have an agenda to push optimal play on everyone. 

Who is this build for you ask? Anyone that wants to play it an likes it. I'm never going to get this question from people ... the game lets you play how you want, for whatever reason you use to make your choices.  

So you're not properly engaging with any of the issues I outlined with the build, while admitting that Reaper is a low DPS spec in need of buffs, which are the reason this entire debate around Reaper (including this build, as it was a response to said debate) even exist in the first place. Glad to hear we're on the same page after all. Btw, the DPS difference isn't even "just" 2k because raid encounters are not golems and even things as easily capped as vulnerability take a few seconds to ramp up; this is even more problematic in fights with many invuln-phases/potential condi resets or time where people disengage (and many players do not attack much or not at all when busy with mechanics)

 

Also just fyi, if someone plays this I really do not care, but if someone posts a build in the forums others are allowed to point out flaws and criticise, especially if they market it the way they do.

[NovaanVerdiano.6174]

6 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Okay, but just because people are really struggling with what I'm saying here, here's a video of me staying in shroud for ~55 seconds:

With Signets of Suffering traited, we get 4% of our life force back times a factor of 1.1 from the Soul Reaping line times another factor of 1.33 from the trait boost in shroud every 3 seconds in shroud.

On top of this, we get 1.5% back from our last auto attack in the chain times a factor of 1.1 from the Soul Reaping line every time we complete said chain.

Yes, we always lose 5% of our life force per second in shroud. We are also getting a ton back from how we've set our build up. This lets the excess be a valuable defensive tool for us without dropping shroud uptime for our rotation.

With the upcoming changes to Soul Barbs, we'll be able to take advantage of an extended shroud rotation both because of our ability to stay in shroud so long, but also because ALL of our signets still work and are stronger in shroud because we've taken Signets of Suffering.

It is beyond annoying to be told I don't know what I'm talking about by people who understand demonstrably less about this build than I do. Please stop.

So you still lose 5% per second, you just trade more damage to keep up your passive gain. This is also still a golem, real fights will kill your DPS further despite what you claim in the OP since you're full reliant on 25 vuln stack uptime and despite popular belief, this does take a bit to ramp up especially in bad groups and gets amplified the more invulns, phase-resets and big mechanics there are (or even things like the tether between Mindblade and Enforcer in KO CM). There are also still mechanics that will simply delete your Shroud instantly, and your build makes itself even more reliant on it than the normal Berserker build.

 

Lastly: I'm not sure why you thought my question directed at Obtena was directed at you? There was nothing indicating it. I'll even give you as much and say that you have an idea of what you're talking about, even if we disagree on the outcome on your conclusions. Don't go and look for reasons to be insulted/feel attacked though, it makes your credibility go down even more than it already has in the community.

[Dadnir.5038]

10 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

All of the ferocity in the world does nothing if you don't crit.

Point is that, within a group, facing an end game boss, he does have perma 100% crit chance despite using Valkyrie.

His mistake is that he sacrifice to many things and bet on an increased ease to stay in shroud which quickly cost him a lot in dps output.

On another hand the Valkyrie build that Arianth moonlight proposed, have a dps output that should be well within 1% of what the current metabuild dish out but with a higher resilience and reliability.

That said, the current metabuild isn't competitive for many reasons (not only the dps) and having a bit more ease to dish out damage isn't going to solve these issues of competitiveness.

NB.: Yet again, there are many encounters where taking the current metabuild is more reliable than a valkyrie build (which more or less nullify the advantage that such a build can provide).

 

Edited November 26, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[draxynnic.3719]

7 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Point is that, within a group, facing an end game boss, he does have perma 100% crit chance despite using Valkyrie.

His mistake is that he sacrifice to many things and bet on an increased ease to stay in shroud which quickly cost him a lot in dps output.

On another hand the Valkyrie build that Arianth moonlight proposed, have a dps output that should be well within 1% of what the current metabuild dish out but with a higher resilience and reliability.

That said, the current metabuild isn't competitive for many reasons (not only the dps) and having a bit more ease to dish out damage isn't going to solve these issues of competitiveness.

NB.: Yet again, there are many encounters where taking the current metabuild is more reliable than a valkyrie build (which more or less nullify the advantage that such a build can provide).

 

Yeah. In all honesty, the principle isn't bad (although it isn't original either) - use of Depth Perception, Decimate Defences, and Fury means you can get about 80% crit chance while out of shroud, meaning you can trade a lot of Precision for more defensive stats without losing too much DPS. There's a bit of ramp to get those vulnerability stacks, but I don't think that's crippling.

What's crippling is that while you don't give up much DPS to take this build instead if the glass cannon reaper build, you've already given up a lot of damage through being a reaper in the first place. If the glass cannon reaper build was reaching at least the mid 30s, then giving up a little damage for substantially greater durability would be a decent approach. But you're starting at a low level to begin with. If you didn't need to worry about toughness tanking, you'd probably be better off taking a high-performing condition build and running Trailblazer or Celestial.

[NovaanVerdiano.6174]

3 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Yeah. In all honesty, the principle isn't bad (although it isn't original either) - use of Depth Perception, Decimate Defences, and Fury means you can get about 80% crit chance while out of shroud, meaning you can trade a lot of Precision for more defensive stats without losing too much DPS. There's a bit of ramp to get those vulnerability stacks, but I don't think that's crippling.

What's crippling is that while you don't give up much DPS to take this build instead if the glass cannon reaper build, you've already given up a lot of damage through being a reaper in the first place. If the glass cannon reaper build was reaching at least the mid 30s, then giving up a little damage for substantially greater durability would be a decent approach. But you're starting at a low level to begin with. If you didn't need to worry about toughness tanking, you'd probably be better off taking a high-performing condition build and running Trailblazer or Celestial.

See, this is more or less the right idea.

If Reaper was doing competitive damage to begin with, then this build wouldn't face nearly as much scrunity as it does. The other reason this build faces a lot of criticism is because it's being dishonest; not by lying, but by leaving out any arguments (whether deliberately or because of lack of thinking through all scenarios, I will assume the latter) that make the build look worse. Taking hits and the resulting, even more severe loss in damage, extreme reliance on vulnerability, no mention on why Scholar was picked on a build that's meant to facetank hits instead of using something else that compliments the build more etc.

 

 

Reaper needs serious damage buffs because nerfing every other spec in the game is not a viable approach, and this is not up for debate, no matter what some people may think.

[Dadnir.5038]

13 minutes ago, NovaanVerdiano.6174 said:

why Scholar was picked on a build that's meant to facetank

I think that's where your point of view is wrong. The build isn't meant to facetank, it's meant to add some QoL to your dps build. You'll see many people complain that they are kicked out of shroud to quickly and Valkyrie gear basically solve this issue on some encounters.

Scholar runes are picked because they more or less close the gap left by runes of thief. Like I said, the valkyrie build is within 1% of it's meta counter part which is "fine" if you consider that you'll have an easier time unleashing your shroud rotation (granted that you don't do it when the boss do %age of health bar damage).

29 minutes ago, NovaanVerdiano.6174 said:

Reaper needs serious damage buffs because nerfing every other spec in the game is not a viable approach, and this is not up for debate, no matter what some people may think.

It is always up to debate.

For you it isn't up to debate because you believe that it should be a strike damage spec. And your "beliefs" might not be the "truth". The sheer amount of health point cushion that the reaper have put it outside (or at the extrem edge) of the "glass canon" category. No matter what it will be able to endure more incoming hits (or should I say small attacks? Granted that the "big attack" must be dodged) than a glass canon with less health points.

Now, If I focus on the top traitline of the reaper, it isn't a spec with high sustain but, unfortunately, cannot tank due to a lack of block/evade/stability, the fact that defiant foes aren't affected by blind and the poor amount of support that it provide while the community expect it's tanks to provide support.

If I focus on the "Ice theme" of the profession, it's supposed to do crowd control. Which further the image of a "tank/bruiser", yet in PvE chill is neutered by defiant foes.

The question is: "Should a bruiser taking a sustain trait (soul eater: gain 4% outgoing melee damage as health on hit) deal as much damage as a glass canon using no sustain trait?"

The answer is: No.

The solution: Raise the risk/reward gap that the traits offer. Encourage players to use traits that don't offer self sustain in order to reach higher damage output. Find a solution to the fact that Reaper have a higher margin of error due to the fact that he do have more effective health points than it's competitors.

Atm, whether Berserk or Valkyrie build, you raise both survivability and damage through different choices which make those builds "bruiser builds" and thus cannot get "competitive" damage output when put into competition with "glass canon". 

 

[NovaanVerdiano.6174]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I think that's where your point of view is wrong. The build isn't meant to facetank, it's meant to add some QoL to your dps build. You'll see many people complain that they are kicked out of shroud to quickly and Valkyrie gear basically solve this issue on some encounters.

Scholar runes are picked because they more or less close the gap left by runes of thief. Like I said, the valkyrie build is within 1% of it's meta counter part which is "fine" if you consider that you'll have an easier time unleashing your shroud rotation (granted that you don't do it when the boss do %age of health bar damage).

It is always up to debate.

For you it isn't up to debate because you believe that it should be a strike damage spec. And your "beliefs" might not be the "truth". The sheer amount of health point cushion that the reaper have put it outside (or at the extrem edge) of the "glass canon" category. No matter what it will be able to endure more incoming hits (or should I say small attacks? Granted that the "big attack" must be dodged) than a glass canon with less health points.

Now, If I focus on the top traitline of the reaper, it isn't a spec with high sustain but, unfortunately, cannot tank due to a lack of block/evade/stability, the fact that defiant foes aren't affected by blind and the poor amount of support that it provide while the community expect it's tanks to provide support.

If I focus on the "Ice theme" of the profession, it's supposed to do crowd control. Which further the image of a "tank/bruiser", yet in PvE chill is neutered by defiant foes.

The question is: "Should a bruiser taking a sustain trait (soul eater: gain 4% outgoing melee damage as health on hit) deal as much damage as a glass canon using no sustain trait?"

The answer is: No.

The solution: Raise the risk/reward gap that the traits offer. Encourage players to use traits that don't offer self sustain in order to reach higher damage output. Find a solution to the fact that Reaper have a higher margin of error due to the fact that he do have more effective health points than it's competitors.

Atm, whether Berserk or Valkyrie build, you raise both survivability and damage through different choices which make those builds "bruiser builds" and thus cannot get "competitive" damage output when put into competition with "glass canon". 

 

Okay, I read this but frankly those are some completely wild ideas so first off, I don't like this Valkyrie Reaper build and obviously it performs worse than the Berserker build, which it should. No one expects a Reaper to tank. It doesn't even have the best breakbar damage in the game but beyond that, it's crowd control is fine - about the only thing it has going for it in terms of group usefulness, but something that's easily replaced. And most importantly: The "second health bar" is such a meme to the point that simply going downstate instead of having your Shroud get clapped is less of a DPS loss for the Reaper.

 

I'll also raise you a bunch of builds with good to absurd self-sustain while sporting better damage and either CC/Range/Utility/multiple of those as Power Reaper, many of which are also less punishing if you do mess up: Power Virtuoso, Condi Virtuoso, Power Scrapper, Power Mechanist, Condition Scourge.

 

These are just a few builds and there's more out there, but I also don't know the sustain of every single build out there. All of those have in common that they have better sustain than Reaper while also doing more damage, with most of those also being able to freely weave in out of range whereas the only time Reaper can do that is while they're on Axe or Staff for the short window where they're swapping to it before going into/after leaving Shroud. Many of them also provide better CC or other utility Reaper has absolutely no access to.

 

Remind me, why should Reaper be dealing little damage because it has sustain traits/why should it not be allowed to have sustain while also dealing competitive damage?

 

I will say it again; Reaper being in need of damage buffs is not a debate, everyone who thinks otherwise has not looked at other builds in this game and what they can do beyond simply dealing damage.

Edited November 26, 2022 by NovaanVerdiano.6174

[Infusion.7149]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Yeah. In all honesty, the principle isn't bad (although it isn't original either) - use of Depth Perception, Decimate Defences, and Fury means you can get about 80% crit chance while out of shroud, meaning you can trade a lot of Precision for more defensive stats without losing too much DPS. There's a bit of ramp to get those vulnerability stacks, but I don't think that's crippling.

What's crippling is that while you don't give up much DPS to take this build instead if the glass cannon reaper build, you've already given up a lot of damage through being a reaper in the first place. If the glass cannon reaper build was reaching at least the mid 30s, then giving up a little damage for substantially greater durability would be a decent approach. But you're starting at a low level to begin with. If you didn't need to worry about toughness tanking, you'd probably be better off taking a high-performing condition build and running Trailblazer or Celestial.

Ritualist gear is the way to go for harbinger, or plaguedoctor on scourge (makes your barriers far larger) if that is the only goal in mind.

I think what most people take issue with is the idea that <30K DPS with perfect conditions and no other usage to other party members. That is why I stated that if the point is openworld, then it should have been listed as such instead of the topic poster making grandiose claims that they "discovered the next reaper build" or something to that end. The topic creator is even doubling down on this and stating they have 26K DPS full rotation, which is really not acceptable in terms of benchmarks. For context that is below what quickness scrapper was before the recent buffs. To top it off the topic creator uses this is used as a rationale for not buffing power reaper to where it was before the crit chance nerfs which is absolutely absurd.

This reminds me a bit of one time I was playing alac ren and there was a power reaper with blood magic racing the healbrand in DPS in fractals... I said nothing but when the healbrand noted this immediate hostility ensued. The same mentality existed at that moment along the lines of: "I am not dying and this is not a speedclear".

In fact, if you reread the first post they clearly know what they're getting into with their wild claims:
 

Quote

If you ask the meta, that deduction is false and therefore it should be given the power of other similar glass cannon builds.

However, if you ask me, I'd tell you the meta build is outdated and that there is a much better and stronger way to play power reaper.

Okay, so what secret do I know about reaper that the meta seemingly doesn't? 

Fact check: it's a known LI reaper just with different gear
Low Intensity Reaper Guide : Insane Damage Even Solo! — Mukluk Labs
Reaper - LI Reaper - MetaBattle Guild Wars 2 Builds

Edited November 26, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I think that's where your point of view is wrong. The build isn't meant to facetank, it's meant to add some QoL to your dps build. You'll see many people complain that they are kicked out of shroud to quickly and Valkyrie gear basically solve this issue on some encounters.

Scholar runes are picked because they more or less close the gap left by runes of thief. Like I said, the valkyrie build is within 1% of it's meta counter part which is "fine" if you consider that you'll have an easier time unleashing your shroud rotation (granted that you don't do it when the boss do %age of health bar damage).

It is always up to debate.

For you it isn't up to debate because you believe that it should be a strike damage spec. And your "beliefs" might not be the "truth". The sheer amount of health point cushion that the reaper have put it outside (or at the extrem edge) of the "glass canon" category. No matter what it will be able to endure more incoming hits (or should I say small attacks? Granted that the "big attack" must be dodged) than a glass canon with less health points.

Now, If I focus on the top traitline of the reaper, it isn't a spec with high sustain but, unfortunately, cannot tank due to a lack of block/evade/stability, the fact that defiant foes aren't affected by blind and the poor amount of support that it provide while the community expect it's tanks to provide support.

It SHOULD be a strike damage spec (or condi/hybrid with appropriate traits). It doesn't provide much else to a group in endgame content, after all. Sure, it's a bit more durable than some and relatively low-intensity, and that could justify a lower DPS in the overall power budget, but it should still be in the mid 30s when fully built for damage.

Maybe this process would require having more focused DPS traits, but it's not the only elite spec to have damage and a bit of sustain in the same trait.

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, NovaanVerdiano.6174 said:

So you're not properly engaging with any of the issues I outlined with the build, while admitting that Reaper is a low DPS spec in need of buffs, which are the reason this entire debate around Reaper (including this build, as it was a response to said debate) even exist in the first place. Glad to hear we're on the same page after all. Btw, the DPS difference isn't even "just" 2k because raid encounters are not golems and even things as easily capped as vulnerability take a few seconds to ramp up; this is even more problematic in fights with many invuln-phases/potential condi resets or time where people disengage (and many players do not attack much or not at all when busy with mechanics)

 

Also just fyi, if someone plays this I really do not care, but if someone posts a build in the forums others are allowed to point out flaws and criticise, especially if they market it the way they do.

No I'm not going to properly engage with your issues outlined with the build. It's not even my build. I didn't even post it. I have no idea why you are trying to argue with me about the details of that build. I don't agree with some of the choices being made there .... but I do support the idea that those details are not WRONG just because theu don't conform to how I or anyone else would create a Valk Reaper. 

I'm simply here to defend the idea that a Valk Reaper has value  despite the standard "it's trash because it doesn't maximize DPS" from the typical propagandists. In fact I would argue it's THE Reaper build that does have the MOST value, since no Reaper build has sufficient DPS to compete for a DPS role in a team in the first place. 

Many people play Reaper because they like to be in Reaper Shroud. The Valk's version does that better than the Zerker one, with significant levels of increased sustain and some decrease in DPS. The sad part is that people continue to be offended by what OTHER people are playing. People need to get over themselves, hard. 

Edited November 26, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[NovaanVerdiano.6174]

6 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No I'm not going to properly engage with your issues outlined with the build. It's not even my build. I didn't even post it. I have no idea why you are trying to argue with me about the details of that build. I don't agree with some of the choices being made there .... but I do support the idea that those details are not WRONG just because theu don't conform to how I or anyone else would create a Valk Reaper. 

I'm simply here to defend the idea that a Valk Reaper has value  despite the standard "it's trash because it doesn't maximize DPS" from the typical propagandists. In fact I would argue it's THE Reaper build that does have the MOST value, since no Reaper build has sufficient DPS to compete for a DPS role in a team in the first place. 

Many people play Reaper because they like to be in Reaper Shroud. The Valk's version does that better than the Zerker one, with significant levels of increased sustain and some decrease in DPS. The sad part is that people continue to be offended by what OTHER people are playing. People need to get over themselves, hard. 

What you play is your choice and your choice only when playing alone or with friends, yes. The second you step into a group from LFG it starts mattering as four/nine other players rely on you and if you waste their time, that is incredibly disrespectful. That said, this particular build isn't so bad that it equates griefing in a pug setting as long as you play well.

 

Still doesn't change what the topic is actually about; Reaper being too weak and not dealing competitive damage while also having little in the way of utility and CC while being somewhat more punishing than most players perceive, with the build supposedly meant to alleviate some of the potential punishment while losing out on damage, which is a really bad tradeoff here.

Edited November 26, 2022 by NovaanVerdiano.6174

[WolfinTD.3904]

this entire post and comment section is just amazing memes

[Machineuzi.5604]

idk why this thread is getting so much traction anyway, decimate defenses and valkyrie combo isnt novel to begin with. doubt op spent half as much time making/testing this build as some people have writing their comments here

 

my bait senses are tingling

Edited November 27, 2022 by Machineuzi.5604

[Obtena.7952]

19 hours ago, NovaanVerdiano.6174 said:

What you play is your choice and your choice only when playing alone or with friends, yes. The second you step into a group from LFG it starts mattering as four/nine other players rely on you and if you waste their time, that is incredibly disrespectful. That said, this particular build isn't so bad that it equates griefing in a pug setting as long as you play well.

OK ... I agree. That was never in dispute. I, in fact, said the same thing. There should be nothing I said to make you need to tell me this point. 

19 hours ago, NovaanVerdiano.6174 said:

Still doesn't change what the topic is actually about; Reaper being too weak and not dealing competitive damage while also having little in the way of utility and CC while being somewhat more punishing than most players perceive, with the build supposedly meant to alleviate some of the potential punishment while losing out on damage, which is a really bad tradeoff here.

Really? That's what you see the topic is about? Seems to me that's what SOME people made the topic about, to push an agenda for Reaper to get more DPS. To me the topic is about Valk Reaper being a alternative build and style of play to Zerker Reaper and nothing else. 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[mandala.8507]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Really? That's what you see the topic is about? Seems to me that's what SOME people made the topic about, to push an agenda for Reaper to get more DPS. To me the topic is about Valk Reaper being a alternative build and style of play to Zerker Reaper and nothing else. 

It's not worth the effort to try to reason with most of the people in this thread. They can't see past the theoretical dps loss to see this build is infinitely safer and therefore higher dps for players who don't have the luxury of a quality static or who are playing with inexperienced or mixed experience groups just trying to get the kill. It will never compute for them.

I've been taking this build into encounters already, and to say I'm griefing people with it is ludicrous. Here's a Sabetha pull I did, admittedly without SoS (only because I hadn't realized it was so much better for keeping up shroud yet), but with the Decimate Defenses + Valkyrie variant still.

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20221122-171435_sab_kill

If I'm griefing for being almost 2k dps above everyone else on a build that is supposedly so bad these guys would kick on sight, idk what to tell them. And there are players with the Voidwalker title in that group too. 

They also just don't like me, so I'm automatically wrong if I try to share any build theory at this point.

The truth is, I spent time in game testing and thinking about this build calmly and rebuilding it from the ground up considering all my options. They skimmed the post looking for flaws, jumped on anything they felt was wrong without testing any of it, and relied on their assumptions about the game to back up why I must be incorrect. Bottom line is, I went from 28.2k with the meta glass-cannon build when I tested it to 26.7k on this build. A 5% dps loss and now I have 8k more hp, heal in shroud, regen life force in shroud, and don't have to flank. And if I lose scholar uptime for a bit sometimes, who cares? It's a 5% modifier; I'll be okay. I too would love a strong alternative power dps rune without precision that doesn't have a conditional modifier that forces me to play differently to maximize dps, but alas, it doesn't exist.

They'll be wrong if I convince them they are or not. Doesn't really matter. What matters is I shared a reaper build for instanced content that solves a lot of the problems players have with this class, and hopefully that helps them enjoy it more.

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Bottom line is, I went from 28.2k with the meta glass-cannon build when I tested it to 26.7k on this build. A 5% dps loss and now I have 8k more hp, heal in shroud, regen life force in shroud, and don't have to flank.

This is the problem. Yes, it's only 5% loss from the 'meta' reaper build (reaper isn't meta, that build is just the best DPS build there is for reaper...), but it's 5% less than an already low number.

Running Marauder instead of Berserker is said to be only a relatively low DPS loss (about 10%, I think). Trailblazer instead of Viper, or some other condition-oriented set with Vitality instead of Viper, is likewise a pretty low DPS loss. If you want to trade DPS for durability, 10-20% off ~38k is still better than 5% off <30k.

Now, I'm not saying it's auto-kick material, but it's certainly far from being the super-build you claim it is, and if a group does end up wiping for a reason that could be interpreted as 'not enough damage', someone running your build would probably be among the first that gets looked at (unless people are running a DPS meter and can see someone else doing worse than you despite having a build that's supposed to do better DPS).