A Reaper Build That Has No Problem Getting Hit: The Immortal Valkyrie

[mandala.8507]

3 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

This is the problem. Yes, it's only 5% loss from the 'meta' reaper build (reaper isn't meta, that build is just the best DPS build there is for reaper...), but it's 5% less than an already low number.

Running Marauder instead of Berserker is said to be only a relatively low DPS loss (about 10%, I think). Trailblazer instead of Viper, or some other condition-oriented set with Vitality instead of Viper, is likewise a pretty low DPS loss. If you want to trade DPS for durability, 10-20% off ~38k is still better than 5% off <30k.

Now, I'm not saying it's auto-kick material, but it's certainly far from being the super-build you claim it is, and if a group does end up wiping for a reason that could be interpreted as 'not enough damage', someone running your build would probably be among the first that gets looked at (unless people are running a DPS meter and can see someone else doing worse than you despite having a build that's supposed to do better DPS). 

There is exactly zero chance of a group having dmg trouble that could be attributed to this build. It handles tanking lots of dmg during encounters remarkably well. It does better with suboptimal boons because of its natural self-quickness and might generation and because you only ever use your long cd skills once per cycle, so it really doesn't get hurt by low alacrity uptime as much as other builds.

You've made up a scenario that almost doesn't exist for gw2 (a group failing an encounter purely because they failed to meet the dps check. 99% of all combat scenarios in gw2 have practically no dps check. the players are failing mechanics) and tried to attribute an unsubstantiated weakness this build would have in a group struggling to meet a dps requirement, when in fact this build EXCELS in janky groups that are failing really hard.

If you're in a group having dps issues, this build becomes better, not worse.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

There is exactly zero chance of a group having dmg trouble that could be attributed to this build. It handles tanking lots of dmg during encounters remarkably well. It does better with suboptimal boons because of its natural self-quickness and might generation and because you only ever use your long cd skills once per cycle, so it really doesn't get hurt by low alacrity uptime as much as other builds.

You've made up a scenario that almost doesn't exist for gw2 (a group failing an encounter purely because they failed to meet the dps check. 99% of all combat scenarios in gw2 have practically no dps check. the players are failing mechanics) and tried to attribute an unsubstantiated weakness this build would have in a group struggling to meet a dps requirement, when in fact this build EXCELS in janky groups that are failing really hard.

If you're in a group having dps issues, this build becomes better, not worse.

It's not just the DPS checks. You mentioned failing mechanics there. Well, any mechanic that isn't triggered exclusively by the boss reaching a specific health point (this does happen, such as Samarog's pounding frenzy, but they're the exceptions rather than the rule: most mechanics might start during a particular phase but are time-based after that phase starts) is going to happen less often if you kill or phase the boss faster. I've seen quite a few instances of someone failing a mechanic just short of a phase change that would have prevented that mechanic from happening in the first place... which means that if people had been doing just a bit more damage during that phase, that mechanic wouldn't have come up in the first place, and thus wouldn't have failed.

This is the problem with trading damage for durability in general. Sure, sometimes it makes errors less punishing. But it also introduces more opportunities for error, even before considering situations like Gorseval and Largos that really are DPS checks. (Which, incidentally, given that I've just named at least two endgame encounters with DPS checks, and I'm pretty sure there aren't 200 endgame combat scenarios, shows that your 99% is hyperbole.)

So there's really two scenarios here:

The first is that you're the only one playing this build. Most of the time, if you're in an experienced group, it'd be fine. But any time a mechanic devastatingly fails when the boss had almost phased out of that mechanic... that's at least partially on you. It doesn't help to be the last one standing when everyone else is already dead. You could be playing blood scourge to help everyone stay alive, but no, you're playing a selfish DPS build that does less DPS than the DPS boon support players.

The second is that you've built the group around this. Okay, so now all of your DPS is doing about 25% less damage than normally expected. Maybe you can replace your quickness with more valkreapers, since you're not as reliant on external quickness, but you actually lose DPS compared to most quickdps builds. If you're really confident, maybe you can do away with your healers... but you probably can't, and even if you can, trading out a healer doesn't make up for losing ~30k DPS across the rest of the party/subsquad. So sure, you're less likely to die to hit point damage. But you'll take ~30% longer and thus face ~30% more mechanics. Any DPS checks you come across, hard or soft, are that much less likely to succeed. Mechanics that involve having to kill adds before they turn into something much more dangerous, such as ghosts on KC or shields/swords on CA, are more likely to survive long enough to merge and, even if they don't, you're spending more time clearing them up and less on the boss, further extending the time it takes to actually kill the boss.

Sure, if your group can afford the DPS loss and you're not comfortable about being able to avoid the damage, it's an option to help you get through the encounter. Mediocre DPS is better than no DPS, after all. But it's hardly a hitherto-undiscovered superbuild that's going to take the endgame by storm. It isn't even novel. The people who write the guides know about valkreaper. If you go looking around "best build for open world"-oriented content creators, such as Nike, Hizen, or Potatoes, I'm pretty sure at least a couple of them have Decimate Defences reaper build guides that go back years.

[The Boz.2038]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Yes, it's only 5% loss from the 'meta' reaper build

You missed a critical bit of bait-and-switch. The 5% loss isn't compared to the meta reaper, but the daft minion-master-reaper with one or none wells. The meta reaper, which is so bad it doesn't even qualify to be on the snowcrows list, outputs ~30.5k. Going from 30 to 26 is laughable.

Additionally, this still compares hilariously unfavorably to Marauder in terms of actual sustain, as "bigger health pool" is not sustain. It also compares unfavorably to the same build in DPS, too. "Infinitely" more survivable, indeed.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I think what people are takimg issue with is your attitude that insists the build is some kind of undiscovered super build instead of just a crutch build for a spec already in a bad spot. 

[mandala.8507]

44 minutes ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

I think what people are takimg issue with is your attitude that insists the build is some kind of undiscovered super build instead of just a crutch build for a spec already in a bad spot. 

My primary insistence is that the build is hearty, simple, and far less situational than the current glass-cannon variant. I believe this is a better way to play power reaper than that version. A significantly better way. I don't think I've ever played a dps build that could take a hit quite like this one.

I also predict this build will benefit much more from the buffs coming on the 29th than the current meta version.

Considering both of these things, I don't believe reaper needs to be hitting such high numbers as others have suggest in the days since the planned buffs were revealed.

I also think making such drastic changes to reaper's damage output purely utilizing the increase of coefficients would put this class in an abominably strong place in other parts of the game for PvE.

The takeaway should be that this build is pretty much pound for pound just as strong as the glass-cannon variant with extra survivability and quality of life buffs available to it without making the build fall apart. And due to that, buffs to reaper that place it in the upper tier of the meta in terms of dps output make this build too strong (in my estimation). If you disagree, that's fine.

It is still my current belief and I have not been swayed from it by the discussion herein.

[Parpage.9867]

15 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

less situational than the current glass-cannon variant

Why are people so obsessed in calling reaper glass cannon. Hello? You have almost 23k HP pool with the standard build, the only "fragile" thing is the shroud itself that gets drained too quickly and has less % of dmg mitigation that it used to have. 

16 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

I believe this is a better way to play power reaper than that version. A significantly better way. I don't think I've ever played a dps build that could take a hit quite like this one.

The only way this build can work is in open world or with a bad squad, or with a good enough squad composed by people that aren't bothered by the lack of dps by a spec that is supposed to be doing that and are kind enough to not let you know that.

19 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Considering both of these things, I don't believe reaper needs to be hitting such high numbers as others have suggest in the days since the planned buffs were revealed.

I still can't understand *why* some people like you and others are so adverse in buffing a spec that is supposed to do damage but it hits like a wet noodle. Really, what's the deal? I can't stress enough how much little i care about meta (otherwise guess what i wouldn't be playing this forsaken spec) but i think that asking for my favorite spec to be half decent it's not such a daunting task to perform (especially when they're buffing other specs as well).  Other people have already listed again and again more tanky specs and builds that can outperform in every single way your build since reaper is not fine as it is but sure let's keep the head under the sand and pretend that we're good. 

[The Boz.2038]

You trade sustain from DPS for.. a bigger health pool.
The extra survivability just is not there. 

QoL benefits seem to be "summon minions and ignore the 6-0 buttons on the keyboard". Compared to pulsing blind, vulnerability, extra DPS. "Hope the enemy targets minions instead of you" is not a valid sustain plan, either.

 

Other DPS builds that can soak ridiculous amounts of hate, and not take focus due to toughness tanking:
 - "meta" reaper, thanks to naturally large HP pool, shroud, blind, and constant self-healing 
 - scrapper, mace mechanist, because constant reapplication of barriers
 - condi weaver (ritualist/viper variant), because barriers, weakness, blind, dodging
 - scourge (full viper), because barriers, cleanses, constant self-heals, CC, endless kiting potential
 - guardian, because guardian, lol, if aegis isn't on, maybe aegis is, and if that doesn't work, try aegis, or maybe a block
 - daredevil, something something evade frames

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

My primary insistence is that the build is hearty, simple, and far less situational than the current glass-cannon variant. I believe this is a better way to play power reaper than that version. A significantly better way. I don't think I've ever played a dps build that could take a hit quite like this one.

Better than a build that's notorious for how much it underperforms doesn't make a build "good", merely "marginally less bad".

If reaper was actually somewhat close to competitive, the principle would be sound. But it's not. Broadly speaking, a DPS build should either outperform riflemech or be (somehow) easier to play than riflemech. This build certainly doesn't do the former. Is it really so much easier to survive than riflemech (despite being nearly full melee) to be worth doing ~8k damage less?

 

48 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Other DPS builds that can soak ridiculous amounts of hate, and not take focus due to toughness tanking:
 - "meta" reaper, thanks to naturally large HP pool, shroud, blind, and constant self-healing 
 - scrapper, mace mechanist, because constant reapplication of barriers
 - condi weaver (ritualist/viper variant), because barriers, weakness, blind, dodging
 - scourge (full viper), because barriers, cleanses, constant self-heals, CC, endless kiting potential
 - guardian, because guardian, lol, if aegis isn't on, maybe aegis is, and if that doesn't work, try aegis, or maybe a block
 - daredevil, something something evade frames

-mirage, something something evade frames and the occasional teleport

-virtuoso, distortion, lots of blocks, and the condi variant converts condition damage into sustain, but it does require use of active defences

-herald might also apply, between blocks, evades, and glint heal, although I haven't personally taken it into endgame content for a while so maybe I'm overestimating it.

[The Boz.2038]

Just now, draxynnic.3719 said:

-herald might also apply, between blocks, evades, and glint heal, although I haven't personally taken it into endgame content for a while so maybe I'm overestimating it.

Oh, no, busting out the odd auto-attack herald is still hilarious.

[Machineuzi.5604]

Herald is pog, 39k estimated bench post patch

 

It doesnt help that every spec that was listed above is currently dunking on Reaper, while not being necessarily any less survivable

[Nephalem.8921]

17 minutes ago, Machineuzi.5604 said:

Herald is pog, 39k estimated bench post patch

 

It doesnt help that every spec that was listed above is currently dunking on Reaper, while not being necessarily any less survivable

Most of them are more survivable than reaper. Reaper has a lot of hp but garbage sustain.

Litany of wrath beats everything reaper has.

[mandala.8507]

Okay, here's how the build does post-patch:

I was pleasantly surprised they gave necromancer a bit more crit chance as well as lowered the rate at which life force drains on reaper. This for sure helps the glass-cannon variant by allowing it to utilize the other skills in shroud without completely ruining their life force management.

For this build, it means we are able to take even more valkyrie pieces. I chose to swap the helm and pants from berserker to valkyrie and add 1 precise infusion to cap out the crit chance.

Also, the greatsword above 50% rotation changed slightly to account for the full gravedigger reset you get. This helps keep the rotation out of shroud feeling fluid even when you master the timing of everything. Otherwise, you might find yourself awkwardly waiting on your shroud cd to come up, especially in groups where you don't have consistent alacrity.

So, now you add one extra gravedigger after your auto attack chain there.

That too is why I elected to keep executioner's scythe in the rotation at all points because it helps keep the skill priority flowing even when things aren't going perfectly. I just like having the frost aura too. It's nice to engage with the combo system every now and again.

Now we have a dps build with 31k hp and an abundance of extra survivability and facetanking potential in shroud that I can hit over 30k on with full infusions. For the best players, this is probably an even higher number.

I maintain this is the best way to play reaper if you aren't one of the top 300 players in the game with access to a quality static and super streamlined full clear strats.

My guess is it's about 2-3k less dps in exchange for insane quality of life buffs that help your dps potential not go to Torment when the group is having problems.

[Warscythes.9307]

14 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Okay, here's how the build does post-patch:

I was pleasantly surprised they gave necromancer a bit more crit chance as well as lowered the rate at which life force drains on reaper. This for sure helps the glass-cannon variant by allowing it to utilize the other skills in shroud without completely ruining their life force management.

For this build, it means we are able to take even more valkyrie pieces. I chose to swap the helm and pants from berserker to valkyrie and add 1 precise infusion to cap out the crit chance.

Also, the greatsword above 50% rotation changed slightly to account for the full gravedigger reset you get. This helps keep the rotation out of shroud feeling fluid even when you master the timing of everything. Otherwise, you might find yourself awkwardly waiting on your shroud cd to come up, especially in groups where you don't have consistent alacrity.

So, now you add one extra gravedigger after your auto attack chain there.

That too is why I elected to keep executioner's scythe in the rotation at all points because it helps keep the skill priority flowing even when things aren't going perfectly. I just like having the frost aura too. It's nice to engage with the combo system every now and again.

Now we have a dps build with 31k hp and an abundance of extra survivability and facetanking potential in shroud that I can hit over 30k on with full infusions. For the best players, this is probably an even higher number.

I maintain this is the best way to play reaper if you aren't one of the top 300 players in the game with access to a quality static and super streamlined full clear strats.

My guess is it's about 2-3k less dps in exchange for insane quality of life buffs that help your dps potential not go to Torment when the group is having problems.

Current bench is 35k. You are trading off about 5.5-6k damage.

 

Also if you actually played reaper in the new patch, you will see that the new LF changes made your build even more irrelevant than before because LF is no longer a huge concern. Unless it is fights like VG where everyone do the skip green strat where your shroud will get nuked or you majorly kitten up somehow. You will not lose shroud thus making this build completely pointless.

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

20 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Current bench is 35k

proof?

[mandala.8507]

4 minutes ago, Warscythes.9307 said:

Current bench is 35k. You are trading off about 5.5-6k damage.

Comparing the best player on the class to what I'm capable of doing is a mistake. I hit like 31k on a good day on condi berserker with full infusions and that bench is 37k (admittedly with a simpler rotation). I hit just shy of 34k on condi virtuoso without infusions and that bench is almost 38k.

I'd also have to actually see the new meta rotation to know if it will have life force problems and if it's capable of hitting 35k realistically.

When video evidence is out of that build not being entirely reliant on not getting hit in shroud, I'll believe it. To me, it still looks really scuffed in situations where you're taking any meaningful amounts of damage. You can get the life force back out of shroud, sure. But that doesn't bring back the dmg you lost from having your shroud rotation cut horrendously short. Especially when the majority of the dmg buffs were for your shroud rotation.

[Warscythes.9307]

6 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Comparing the best player on the class to what I'm capable of doing is a mistake. I hit like 31k on a good day on condi berserker with full infusions and that bench is 37k (admittedly with a simpler rotation). I hit just shy of 34k on condi virtuoso without infusions and that bench is almost 38k.

I'd also have to actually see the new meta rotation to know if it will have life force problems and if it's capable of hitting 35k realistically.

When video evidence is out of that build not being entirely reliant on not getting hit in shroud, I'll believe it. To me, it still looks really scuffed in situations where you're taking any meaningful amounts of damage. You can get the life force back out of shroud, sure. But that doesn't bring back the dmg you lost from having your shroud rotation cut horrendously short. Especially when the majority of the dmg buffs were for your shroud rotation.

Have you tried to play the meta build then instead of sticking to what you are doing? Post patch, not the one before. LF really isn't a problem unless is a major hit which if you get hit by one, that's really your fault.

 

11 minutes ago, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

proof?

I posted it in the other thread.

 

 

 

[Parpage.9867]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

This for sure helps the glass-cannon variant

Image having almost 23k HP and calling it glass cannon lmao

[Infusion.7149]

43 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Comparing the best player on the class to what I'm capable of doing is a mistake. I hit like 31k on a good day on condi berserker with full infusions and that bench is 37k (admittedly with a simpler rotation). I hit just shy of 34k on condi virtuoso without infusions and that bench is almost 38k.

I'd also have to actually see the new meta rotation to know if it will have life force problems and if it's capable of hitting 35k realistically.

When video evidence is out of that build not being entirely reliant on not getting hit in shroud, I'll believe it. To me, it still looks really scuffed in situations where you're taking any meaningful amounts of damage. You can get the life force back out of shroud, sure. But that doesn't bring back the dmg you lost from having your shroud rotation cut horrendously short. Especially when the majority of the dmg buffs were for your shroud rotation.

If you're having problems benching (80% is the target usually), you should be looking into MrMystic's simplified builds for instanced content instead of trying to convince people to play something subpar that they can never improve on due to inherent stat caps.

Even using your own numbers , 31K of 37K on condi berserker is ~80% while the benchmark you have above with the reaper is 30K of 35K (~85%). Likewise 34K of 38K is around 90%. If you like the aesthetic or playstyle of reaper that is a completely separate topic than what you are trying to convey. People can like a build but it doesn't make it "better than the meta version" at least not in terms of top end DPS. In your scenario becoming better at condi berserker is actually more beneficial due to condi quickness berserker existing right after a firebrand nerf.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[mandala.8507]

11 minutes ago, Parpage.9867 said:

Image having almost 23k HP and calling it glass cannon lmao

You're very hung up on semantics, huh. Call it whatever. It's made of glass compared to this version.

[Parpage.9867]

1 minute ago, mandala.8507 said:

You're very hung up on semantics, huh. Call it whatever. It's made of glass compared to this version.

It's not a semantic, it's literally a fact. Almost 23k of HP is not a glass cannon, also lmao of course everything is more fragile when you compare it with a build that has a whooping 30k HP what a daft argument 

[mandala.8507]

This is what I mean when I say this build has no problem getting hit:

I have the console pulsing out the moderate damage setting and I'm still able to do a really solid rotation without taking any permanent incoming damage.

This is the appeal of the build.

[mandala.8507]

47 minutes ago, Parpage.9867 said:

It's not a semantic, it's literally a fact. Almost 23k of HP is not a glass cannon, also lmao of course everything is more fragile when you compare it with a build that has a whooping 30k HP what a daft argument 

You're arguing semantics because what you're getting hung up on is the nomenclature. I've already said you can call the other build whatever pleases you and makes you feel the best about its veracity.

Relax, friend. No need to get worked up about it.

[Parpage.9867]

23 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Relax, friend. No need to get worked up about it.

Lmao who's getting worked up? You're the one who feels the need to post every time a video about his build trying to prove something

[Parpage.9867]

38 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

I'm still able to do a really solid rotation without taking any permanent incoming damage.

This is the appeal of the build.

Ah yes the punching bag, so much appeal. Because in a real scenario you will surely be always stand still 24/7

[mandala.8507]

42 minutes ago, Parpage.9867 said:

Lmao who's getting worked up? 

You are.