A Reaper Build That Has No Problem Getting Hit: The Immortal Valkyrie

[Parpage.9867]

1 minute ago, mandala.8507 said:

You are.

How weird, you didn't show me this time how mad i was with a video? Now i am disappointed and sad ☹️

[The Boz.2038]

2 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

You're very hung up on semantics, huh. Call it whatever. It's made of glass compared to this version.

Exchanging constant 1k+ health/second for ~10k health doesn't make the build tankier or more sustainable.

Quite the opposite, in fact.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Slightly off the topic, but I made a build somewhat similar to this Valkyrie build in design  (a long time ago)…where i used daggers, dhuumfire trait and burning duration increase runes/sigil (and taking up the 50% Crit trait I believe)…cause what happens is that in raid setting from stuff like might and vuln, you are getting 1300 or so condition stats that you arnt using…so without investing into condi damage, you can just extend the duration of burning and it ends up replacing About the quarter of damage you lose dropping the max damage stuff. 
 

Anyway as a result your rotation gets way simpler without dps loss (was hitting consistently 28k-34k if I remember correctly) doing just auto attack rotation in shroud and out of shroud with daggers… 

 

I made the build mostly because I was lazy and wanted a rotation that was less punishing for getting the rotation wrong. Lead to more stable dps over the encounter and I could maintain more focus on mechanics. 
 

it’s been a while since I’ve played raids or did any theory-crafting in game but I would encourage folks to not shy away from builds like this Valkyrie thing, especially if the build makes your life easier.

Edited March 7, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Nimon.7840]

On 11/26/2022 at 7:26 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

Disregarding the argumentation in this thread... 

Power quickness harbinger actually exists now unlike in the EoD beta. It does 25K so I am unsure of the goal of hitting <24K with this which is more a solo build. If you use Soul Spiral instead of autoing your shroud won't last as long. If your goal is just to be tanky you would be far better off playing condi (or even scrapper) just due to stat spread.

Power reaper needs buffs outside shroud, this is a given. Just because you "can stay in shroud for 55 seconds" and do 23K which barely even higher than an afk power staff daredevil last I checked it doesn't mean it is a good spec. In most cases you are basically griefing to run this over a power quickness harbinger or condi quickness harbinger let alone condi scourge or harbinger.

On top of this Slothasor is not a good example since there are slublings that die which give life force. Scourge is a far better pick due to barriers and condition conversion even when you are feared. I think if thread was titled accordingly for openworld people would not take issue with it.

 

Imo:

No not really. Power quickness harb isnt good.

Nowadays good quickness builds seem to do 30-37k dps, while also providing utility.

Both power and condi quickharb don't bring any real utility. And power harbs dps is considerably lower than any other quickness build. And both only generate Perma quickness and fury.

Look at herald: Perma protection, swiftness and regeneration on top, has boon extension and gives superspeed. On top it can swap out shiro for minimal dps loss to dwarf, to bring 10man stability, or take ventari for projectile block, condi cleanse and very good range cc.

Firebrand is absolutely insane right now and even stronger than it was before the rework in my opinion. You can easily swap utilities, for example stand your ground (maybe the best stability skill in the game), and you can always go into tome 3 to put down a reflect bubble or give stability.

Scrapper while being lower in dps than herald, firebrand and cqharb, at least offers almost permanent Superspeed and a really strong ranged rezz.

Even full dps harb isnt very good imo. In real fight you will do almost the same dps with scourge (for example because self inflicted conditions get cleansed much easier on harb, than on scourge), that provides much more utility.

Imo there's absolutely no good reason to play harbinger right now in endgame PvE.

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Nimon.7840

[Klowdy.3126]

On 11/24/2022 at 1:52 AM, Arianth Moonlight.6453 said:

if you want more hp just change your zerker gear for marauder. Small dps lost, big hp boost.

This has been my approach to everything. I'm not doing anything that would require that extra 5-10% damage, so I like having more wiggle room for my (inevitable) mistakes.

[apharma.3741]

On 3/7/2023 at 1:48 PM, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Slightly off the topic, but I made a build somewhat similar to this Valkyrie build in design  (a long time ago)…where i used daggers, dhuumfire trait and burning duration increase runes/sigil (and taking up the 50% Crit trait I believe)…cause what happens is that in raid setting from stuff like might and vuln, you are getting 1300 or so condition stats that you arnt using…so without investing into condi damage, you can just extend the duration of burning and it ends up replacing About the quarter of damage you lose dropping the max damage stuff. 
 

Anyway as a result your rotation gets way simpler without dps loss (was hitting consistently 28k-34k if I remember correctly) doing just auto attack rotation in shroud and out of shroud with daggers… 

 

I made the build mostly because I was lazy and wanted a rotation that was less punishing for getting the rotation wrong. Lead to more stable dps over the encounter and I could maintain more focus on mechanics. 
 

it’s been a while since I’ve played raids or did any theory-crafting in game but I would encourage folks to not shy away from builds like this Valkyrie thing, especially if the build makes your life easier.

I thought dhuumfire conflicts with deathly perception? It's a solid strategy for necromancer in general though, buff up that condition duration because you can generate conditions with minimal effort and as you say the condition damage from might does wonders. The addition of grieving stats really helped guardian, rangers and necromancers a lot while allowing some very interesting combinations in WvW combining with celestial....though I think celestial in general wins for necro at that point.

I also cannot emphasise your last 3 sentences enough. If people in raids would stop forcing themselves into a meta and instead focus on easy to play, high reward builds that don't suffer from messing up the rotation they would find raids a lot easier. The bonus of being able to focus on mechanics over rotation means a much easier time. I kept saying to a raid group I joined that killing a boss 2 minutes later, on first try, is a lot quicker than killing it 2 minutes faster but taking 4 or 5 tries because someone messes up a mechanic or dies at a bad point.

[Nephalem.8921]

18 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

I thought dhuumfire conflicts with deathly perception? It's a solid strategy for necromancer in general though, buff up that condition duration because you can generate conditions with minimal effort and as you say the condition damage from might does wonders. The addition of grieving stats really helped guardian, rangers and necromancers a lot while allowing some very interesting combinations in WvW combining with celestial....though I think celestial in general wins for necro at that point.

Grieving stats are a meme and almost never worth it.

18 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

I also cannot emphasise your last 3 sentences enough. If people in raids would stop forcing themselves into a meta and instead focus on easy to play, high reward builds that don't suffer from messing up the rotation they would find raids a lot easier. The bonus of being able to focus on mechanics over rotation means a much easier time. I kept saying to a raid group I joined that killing a boss 2 minutes later, on first try, is a lot quicker than killing it 2 minutes faster but taking 4 or 5 tries because someone messes up a mechanic or dies at a bad point.

A low dps build is not high reward. There are plenty easy builds which do decent damage. A meme low dps reaper build does not make the content easier. It makes it harder because everything lasts way longer. Death perception is just way better than dhuumfire on a power build.

You know what makes raids easy? High dps meta builds like spellbreaker, weaver, mirage, holo which do 40% more dmg than this valk build while offering better support. Combined with people who cared enough to at least try it once on golem. Weaver is very simple to play with just standard btth without weave self.

[apharma.3741]

1 hour ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Grieving stats are a meme and almost never worth it.

A low dps build is not high reward. There are plenty easy builds which do decent damage. A meme low dps reaper build does not make the content easier. It makes it harder because everything lasts way longer. Death perception is just way better than dhuumfire on a power build.

You know what makes raids easy? High dps meta builds like spellbreaker, weaver, mirage, holo which do 40% more dmg than this valk build while offering better support. Combined with people who cared enough to at least try it once on golem. Weaver is very simple to play with just standard btth without weave self.

Know what does more damage than a "high dps meta build"? Being alive the whole fight.
The point is to know your limitations and play what you can play getting solid damage numbers. Most players are not getting anywhere close to the maximum dps from a complex meta rotation and would be better suited running more basic rotations with more forgivable stats that do ~20% less maximum damage but they actually achieve it and don't die.
Yes I have seen many people playing these meta builds in my time and most never came close to the max but LI builds always did solid damage and the people rarely died.

[Nefras.7314]

9 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Know what does more damage than a "high dps meta build"? Being alive the whole fight.
The point is to know your limitations and play what you can play getting solid damage numbers. Most players are not getting anywhere close to the maximum dps from a complex meta rotation and would be better suited running more basic rotations with more forgivable stats that do ~20% less maximum damage 

People who struggle on "meta" builds are gonna lose even more dps running some garbage valk build or dhuumfire/dagger.

Power Reaper has an incredibly easy rotation already and does supbar dps even on the meta builds

 

11 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

A low dps build is not high reward. There are plenty easy builds which do decent damage. A meme low dps reaper build does not make the content easier. It makes it harder because everything lasts way longer. Death perception is just way better than dhuumfire on a power build.

You know what makes raids easy? High dps meta builds like spellbreaker, weaver, mirage, holo which do 40% more dmg than this valk build while offering better support. Combined with people who cared enough to at least try it once on golem. Weaver is very simple to play with just standard btth without weave self.

. 

All of this is 100% on point. the longer the fight the less you have to worry about mechanics, high dps meta builds are literally the cheese of instanced content.

 

[mandala.8507]

Not to barge into the discussion, but just to clear up some misconceptions and address some disingenuous argumentation:

1. Comparing this build to anything but the meta variant power reaper build is outside the scope of my reasons for sharing it. Yes, there are a lot of dps builds now doing 40k+ dps. However, I don't think those builds are healthy for the game and I believe they invalidate and diminish a significant portion of older content. Same goes for the dps support builds closing in on 34-35k dps. These should have been nerfed, but for whatever reason Anet has chosen to significantly power creep the game through the last several balance patches.
   
   When compared to the 35k dps glassy power reaper variant, there are a bunch of reasons why I would recommend the Valkyrie build over that one. (And remember, that's 35k for the best player on the build with full infusions, animation cancels, etc. — not for anyone who picks the build up).
    
2. Yes, the meta power reaper variant is an easy enough rotation on paper, but it is hugely reliant on alacrity uptime. In a group where you aren't getting 95%+ alacrity uptime, you're going to find yourself freestyling often outside of shroud.
   
   Lots of meta builds are set up this way, and while on reaper it really just means you'll be doing more greatsword autos/gravediggers while you wait, it's still annoying and will completely throw off a new player relying on rote memorization to get through.
    
3. The glassy meta variant still can't really afford to be taking a lot of hits. The life force buffs that accompanied the soul barbs extension change massively reduced how punishing improper life force management on that build is, but you're still going to get bopped out of shroud in any fight where you find yourself taking lots of damage.
   
   4. We're running a rez that doesn't even put us under 20k hp to use and comes off cd almost immediately after each shroud rotation because of signets of suffering, so I'm not sure why people are saying this build has no utility. Same story with signet of vampirism. Not saying these are mind-blowing, but it's not nothing. And we've got great cc options.

I shared this build to showcase how playing reaper doesn't force you to be a squishy fair-weather dps player and also to counter the narrative that reaper is purely a glass-cannon dps spec. There are lots of small adjustments that trade a bit of potential damage output for massive survivability and quality of life on reaper.

And of course, top players in quality groups will find no value in this build. But the game doesn't only consist of top players in quality groups, astonishingly enough. Just because this build is worthless to them doesn't mean someone who wants to play reaper without losing massive damage output in sticky fights wouldn't find solace in a build like this. One of my biggest gripes with the buildcraft scene is the one-dimensional view of endgame that paints many low-skill and low-experience players into a corner and off of some elite specs entirely.

Even as a veteran raider who often tops the damage charts, when I want to play a reaper dps build I choose the Valkyrie one because it's almost always a better fit for the groups I'm in.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 3/11/2023 at 2:08 AM, Nephalem.8921 said:

Grieving stats are a meme and almost never worth it.

A low dps build is not high reward. There are plenty easy builds which do decent damage. A meme low dps reaper build does not make the content easier. It makes it harder because everything lasts way longer. Death perception is just way better than dhuumfire on a power build.

You know what makes raids easy? High dps meta builds like spellbreaker, weaver, mirage, holo which do 40% more dmg than this valk build while offering better support. Combined with people who cared enough to at least try it once on golem. Weaver is very simple to play with just standard btth without weave self.

 

You're missing the point.

 

A complex rotation, when a mistake happens, your max DPS of 40k drops to 20k or fluctuate wildly, because such builds rely on not making any mistakes. Additionally, complicated builds, are usually susceptible to dying, because of two reasons A) you are not focused on the mechanics, but on making sure you aren't making a mistake in your rotation and B) these builds are designed to a hilarious degree, to be so squishy that a sneeze from the boss ends up with a downstate or death, overall meaning less DPS in the former, or 0 DPS in the latter.

 

An easier rotation, requires less focus on making rotation mistakes, and more focus on the mechanics, positioning, and so on, and because auto-attack rotation builds are easier and less susceptible to mistakes, the DPS they output remains CONSISTENT over the time of an engagement. 

 

In other words, doing 28k DPS the entire fight, is much better than starting out with a 40k burst, that drops to 10k because you made a couple mistakes and died to a mechanic when things get hot at the halfway point.

--------------------------------

A little side story, Other than this dhuumfire build I had used, I also played the meta staff thief build... and I have a little story to explain about it. The Staff thief build has a DPS benchmark of 35k DPS...mostly because it relies on spamming Staff 2 (weakening charge) and starting out the sequence with a Thieves Guild burst. Weakening Charge is awesome against a golem...but this skill roots you in animation, and it turns out that using this skill at the wrong time means you are gonna die...therefor actually using the proper rotation as it was curated on Snowcrows, doesn't actually work in a lot of situations, and it ends up causing you to lose DPS as you have to adjust your rotation for the ability to move when mechanics happen.

 

After dying a couple times to Samarog due to being rooted in weakening charge animations, along with bounding dodger-ing, led to failing positioning and mechanics, resulting in very poor output (8 - 20k DPS) I decided to further analyze the build to see if I could create a lazy rotation...what I ended up with is that, Using only Staff 1 auto-attack spam turns out to give about 30 - 34k DPS consistently. I stopped using weakening charge, dropped Bounding dodger and took up unhindered combatant(lol) since i no longer had a use bounding for my dodge, and this rotation changed improved my performance with thief MASSIVLY. No cap, just autoattacking with staff 1. 28 - 32k dps consistently on all the bosses, even on very hard fights.

 

Something I also discovered in that research, was that replacing one of the utility skills, with Infiltrators Signet allows you to sneak in an extra weakening strike into your rotation, allowing you to hit 35k benchmark without going through the whole dodging thing or using thieves guild. So for tank and spanking and burns I would bring infiltrators to capitalize on that DPS when it was safe to weakening strike spam.

 

Ultimately, the point is that easier rotations can lead to way better, more consistent performance in a real fight...because here's the kicker...turns out golems are just a hyper idealized model of actual boss fights. There's great information to gain from DPS benchmarking but it's not the whole story.

 

Edit: Just went in-game to see if this thief build still worked after post changes to buffs...

Even on 80% crit chance, doing 29k DPS lol! 

https://i.gyazo.com/ee54bca1792bf294be881707a589d268.mp4

[mandala.8507]

On 3/11/2023 at 2:08 AM, Nephalem.8921 said:

You know what makes raids easy? High dps meta builds like spellbreaker, weaver, mirage, holo which do 40% more dmg than this valk build while offering better support. Combined with people who cared enough to at least try it once on golem. Weaver is very simple to play with just standard btth without weave self.

This comment just really does not compute for me in the context of this thread. I understand completely what you're trying to say: that as dps players, doing more dps is the best way to make the fight "easier"; but I don't think you quite understand the various ways we can make a fight easier and are choosing to ignore every other possibility.

Yes, one way to make the fight easier for the group is to just straight up dps check it and outpace mechanics. If your goal is to never really understand how the game works or to get better at the actual fight-specific gameplay, this is a great strategy. I would never begrudge someone for deciding to clean up a rotation on a super strong build and just beat the boss before it has a chance to do anything too crazy.

However, this strategy is an all or nothing gambit. You're on a (sometimes difficult and temperamental) build that is highly reliant on your allies doing things correctly. Unfortunately (im my experience) for most groups mistakes happen — and they happen a lot. In a group making mistakes, this highly streamlined and specialized meta build might fall flat on its face (not always, but in the hands of the average player, quite commonly). And this is why we often see people in pick up groups be so quick to flee runs where players aren't properly handling mechanics. On a good portion of meta builds, if things aren't going right, the content can feel unbeatable (or at least frustrating enough that it feel unsatisfying throwing yourself at a boss a dozen times until the people making the fight harder stop doing so, just so you can see a log where you did 70% of your usual dps on the encounter because you had to make huge gameplay adjustments to compensate).

A second way to make the fight easier is to lower the intensity of the build an individual is playing. This method is actually relatively well supported by the buildcraft scene and has been brought up by other people in this thread. Instead of forcing a player to "get good" and work on their class mechanics and combat proficiency, we can recommend a build that simply asks less of them. Looser rotations, less button presses, less combination complexity...you get the idea.

This method does a great job of alleviating one of the most frustrating elements of raiding, which is the split focus on class mechanics and boss mechanics. However, LI builds still often times rely heavily on things going right. It's nice that you don't have to play the piano now to get big numbers on weaver, but when things get sticky, you're still hitting the floor and never coming back up.

So this is where the third method for making the fight easier comes in: "stronger builds". And by stronger, I don't mean the very subjective term "better" or that these builds have higher damage caps. I only mean that these builds feel stronger and chiefly more resilient in the hands of the average player. They're tankier, less feast or famine, and give players more control over the chaos they're very likely to encounter in...well, an encounter.

This is where, in the specific instance of power reaper, a build like Immortal Valkyrie can be a stronger (not necessarily better, just stronger) alternative to the meta build. This build has a massive hp pool, meaning you're less likely to find yourself in downstate, which lowers your damage potential. You also have a vastly improved life force pool, letting you take larger hits more often without depleting the precious resource you need to keep up good damage. For a good portion of the playerbase, this build will happen to just be better because it's allowing them to play the game even when they or their teammates are making mistakes.

This build also happens to be lower intensity than the meta glassy variant, but with the added benefit of not entirely reinventing the wheel. You can "get good" playing this build and in no time pick up the meta build if you want to test your mettle and shoot for that goldilocks run to score top dps.

Basically, while I don't even disagree with you that doing insane damage is an excellent way to make a fight easier, it isn't the only way, and it's rather discouraging that we make new and low-skill players feel as if it is.

Not to mention that if I'm a low-investment player with a level 80 reaper, it really doesn't matter that there are "better" builds on other classes. Tell me what I can play that feels strong on this class. And that is the reason why I wanted to share this build in the first place.

[mandala.8507]

But I really just have a bone to pick with how the community is trying to put gw2 into the same box as other MMOs. The buildcraft and squad composition possibilities in this game are endless, but people just want us to fit the same boring old group content mold as all the other games.

Like, here's a run of Sabetha with my supposedly really bad build in full rare Valkyrie gear doing top dps on a super sticky Sabetha pull in an experienced run of Wing 1:

If the build was as bad as people are trying to say it is, I wouldn't be able to do this.

(And yeah, "I wouldn't be top dps in a good group". I know. But this group was perfectly capable of clearing the content and so why shouldn't that be enough of a bar for us to agree the build is a fine alternative? Even in a great pick up group, I see no reason why this build is a problem, especially if I'm in real gear.)

[Obtena.7952]

21 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

This comment just really does not compute for me in the context of this thread. I understand completely what you're trying to say: that as dps players, doing more dps is the best way to make the fight "easier"; but I don't think you quite understand the various ways we can make a fight easier and are choosing to ignore every other possibility.

The problem is that there are a segment of GW2 players that:

1. think the only criteria for success is making the game 'easy' using meta builds, which would require most players to ignore how they want to play. 

2. think that self-determined 'easy' criteria should be forced on everyone else, probably because they loathe having to deal with people in their teams that don't think the same way they do, for various self-interests. 

The problem for them: that's not how the game works, or have EVER worked. 

I think they understand very well that these 'not-easy' options are completely reasonable approaches to play the game. They simply don't like them because of how those builds affect them when they are used in teams they are in. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Methuselah.4376]

4 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

But I really just have a bone to pick with how the community is trying to put gw2 into the same box as other MMOs. The buildcraft and squad composition possibilities in this game are endless, but people just want us to fit the same boring old group content mold as all the other games.

Like, here's a run of Sabetha with my supposedly really bad build in full rare Valkyrie gear doing top dps on a super sticky Sabetha pull in an experienced run of Wing 1:

If the build was as bad as people are trying to say it is, I wouldn't be able to do this.

(And yeah, "I wouldn't be top dps in a good group". I know. But this group was perfectly capable of clearing the content and so why shouldn't that be enough of a bar for us to agree the build is a fine alternative? Even in a great pick up group, I see no reason why this build is a problem, especially if I'm in real gear.)

The thing is, all of the strengths you mentioned for a Valkyrie build are meaningless in a raid scenario because you have healers and should also have 2 brain cells to rub together in order to do/avoid mechanics. Necro's health is already high enough that it can afford some hits from the boss (though you still don't want that if you want to keep the Scholar bonus). All I kept thinking was how much higher your dps would be if you had the actual raid build.

[Nephalem.8921]

12 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Edit: Just went in-game to see if this thief build still worked after post changes to buffs...

Even on 80% crit chance, doing 29k DPS lol! 

https://i.gyazo.com/ee54bca1792bf294be881707a589d268.mp4

The build critcaps. It does not show properly in hero panel. And you are benching with 13 condis. More like 27k with 10. Thief does 2% more for each condition on foe.

27k when quick fb does 37k while having 30k hp. This is why people Li gate groups with ridiculous requirements now.

6 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

This comment just really does not compute for me in the context of this thread. I understand completely what you're trying to say: that as dps players, doing more dps is the best way to make the fight "easier"; but I don't think you quite understand the various ways we can make a fight easier and are choosing to ignore every other possibility.

The other options are more healers or a rez scourge. Playing something like that makes it easier for you. Only you. Harder for the group.

6 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

However, this strategy is an all or nothing gambit. You're on a (sometimes difficult and temperamental) build that is highly reliant on your allies doing things correctly. Unfortunately (im my experience) for most groups mistakes happen — and they happen a lot. In a group making mistakes, this highly streamlined and specialized meta build might fall flat on its face (not always, but in the hands of the average player, quite commonly). And this is why we often see people in pick up groups be so quick to flee runs where players aren't properly handling mechanics.

People flee because they usually dont want to play with players being unable to press 5 buttons and they dont want to spend twice the time per boss which adds up quickly.

6 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

On a good portion of meta builds, if things aren't going right, the content can feel unbeatable (or at least frustrating enough that it feel unsatisfying throwing yourself at a boss a dozen times until the people making the fight harder stop doing so, just so you can see a log where you did 70% of your usual dps on the encounter because you had to make huge gameplay adjustments to compensate).

70% weaver is still higher than 100% tank reaper and so is hammer spellbreaker which has 25k hp too, defense traitline and can do 40k.

6 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

A second way to make the fight easier is to lower the intensity of the build an individual is playing. This method is actually relatively well supported by the buildcraft scene and has been brought up by other people in this thread. Instead of forcing a player to "get good" and work on their class mechanics and combat proficiency, we can recommend a build that simply asks less of them. Looser rotations, less button presses, less combination complexity...you get the idea.

This method does a great job of alleviating one of the most frustrating elements of raiding, which is the split focus on class mechanics and boss mechanics. However, LI builds still often times rely heavily on things going right. It's nice that you don't have to play the piano now to get big numbers on weaver, but when things get sticky, you're still hitting the floor and never coming back up.

So this is where the third method for making the fight easier comes in: "stronger builds". And by stronger, I don't mean the very subjective term "better" or that these builds have higher damage caps. I only mean that these builds feel stronger and chiefly more resilient in the hands of the average player. They're tankier, less feast or famine, and give players more control over the chaos they're very likely to encounter in...well, an encounter.

This is where, in the specific instance of power reaper, a build like Immortal Valkyrie can be a stronger (not necessarily better, just stronger) alternative to the meta build. This build has a massive hp pool, meaning you're less likely to find yourself in downstate, which lowers your damage potential. You also have a vastly improved life force pool, letting you take larger hits more often without depleting the precious resource you need to keep up good damage. For a good portion of the playerbase, this build will happen to just be better because it's allowing them to play the game even when they or their teammates are making mistakes.

This build also happens to be lower intensity than the meta glassy variant, but with the added benefit of not entirely reinventing the wheel. You can "get good" playing this build and in no time pick up the meta build if you want to test your mettle and shoot for that goldilocks run to score top dps.

Basically, while I don't even disagree with you that doing insane damage is an excellent way to make a fight easier, it isn't the only way, and it's rather discouraging that we make new and low-skill players feel as if it is.

Not to mention that if I'm a low-investment player with a level 80 reaper, it really doesn't matter that there are "better" builds on other classes. Tell me what I can play that feels strong on this class. And that is the reason why I wanted to share this build in the first place.

You can not look at it in a vacuum. Every quick support does more than this. If boons are spotty just bring another herald/scrapper/fb which are very durable too, do more damage and fix the boon problem on top.

6 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

But I really just have a bone to pick with how the community is trying to put gw2 into the same box as other MMOs. The buildcraft and squad composition possibilities in this game are endless, but people just want us to fit the same boring old group content mold as all the other games.

Like, here's a run of Sabetha with my supposedly really bad build in full rare Valkyrie gear doing top dps on a super sticky Sabetha pull in an experienced run of Wing 1:

If the build was as bad as people are trying to say it is, I wouldn't be able to do this.

(And yeah, "I wouldn't be top dps in a good group". I know. But this group was perfectly capable of clearing the content and so why shouldn't that be enough of a bar for us to agree the build is a fine alternative? Even in a great pick up group, I see no reason why this build is a problem, especially if I'm in real gear.)

It does 15k on sab?! I hope this is NA. You would not even have acceptable dps in a good group since quick fb does 20k+ there while having 30k hp btw and quick scrapper does 18k+ too and it has a true 2nd healthbar.

https://dps.report/OInN-20230313-143956_sab

https://dps.report/wgXv-20230313-123354_sab

This are normal low Li groups.

The builds only work in gw2 because the content is severely undertuned. Also the reason why you have to ask for insane amounts of kp to get decent players. A kill is often not enough since it could have been one like the one you posted. In ff14 1kp is enough because it is way harder to get messy clears. HT cm is the same btw. 1kp is enough to find groups.

This is 7year old content. In current content like strikes it does not really work because dps matters again as it should. It is not making cm fractals easier either.

 

[Nefras.7314]

8 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

 

Not to mention that if I'm a low-investment player with a level 80 reaper, it really doesn't matter that there are "better" builds on other classes. Tell me what I can play that feels strong on this class. And that is the reason why I wanted to share this build in the first place.

Both scourge and condi reaper are better AND more reliable than valk reaper. They bring more boons/support to the group (if you want that so badly on a dps specc) and outdps it tenfold. 

Even if you want to advocate to people that can barely manage to press 5 buttons in a row I dont understand why out of all things in this game youd recommend valk reaper with signets.

Posting a 15k dps log on sab while doing mechs does ... not help your case here.

Alas, gl with that.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Nefras.7314

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

48 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

It does 15k on sab?! I hope this is NA. You would not even have acceptable dps in a good group since quick fb does 20k+ there while having 30k hp btw and quick scrapper does 18k+ too and it has a true 2nd healthbar.

 

Did you not watch the video? The groups ends with his dps on 24k. 3k under your 40k benchmark weaver.

Also FYI, Thief generates it's own 25 vuln (staff 1), and there's plenty of might around in groups. Don't push the goal post either, cause you are using benchmarks as a way to measure this valk build against other builds, so don't talk about "oh you benchmarking with condi's" which is how benchmarks are made with every other class, with every boon and every condi on the golem.

Edited March 14, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Nephalem.8921]

45 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Did you not watch the video? The groups ends with his dps on 24k. 3k under your 40k benchmark weaver.

Also FYI, Thief generates it's own 25 vuln (staff 1), and there's plenty of might around in groups. Don't push the goal post either, cause you are using benchmarks as a way to measure this valk build against other builds, so don't talk about "oh you benchmarking with condi's" which is how benchmarks are made with every other class, with every boon and every condi on the golem.

Check the logs. He he has 15k dmg in log single target. Arc ingame number adds add dps on top and arc in video is probably cleave too. The weaver in my log would have had a 40k+ cleave number there.

No builds with mods per condition are benching with all conditions. They bench with 10. The 35k DD does that too. It would be ~37k with all condis and holo would be above 40k. Every bench is made with realistic condis/boons. You are not using all boons either on specs with dmg per boon mods like herald or spellbreaker. Perma slow, taunt, immob are just not very realistic unless you build a very specific teamcomp that could do that.

[Nefras.7314]

58 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Did you not watch the video? The groups ends with his dps on 24k. 3k under your 40k benchmark weaver.

Also FYI, Thief generates it's own 25 vuln (staff 1), and there's plenty of might around in groups. Don't push the goal post either, cause you are using benchmarks as a way to measure this valk build against other builds, so don't talk about "oh you benchmarking with condi's" which is how benchmarks are made with every other class, with every boon and every condi on the golem.

https://dps.report/LJIw-20230313-174325_sab its 15k, average weaver is 23k - top at 30

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20230223-192158_sab_kill meta build log for reaper

The group is a minute behind average clears and 2-3 minutes behind good groups. 

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/sab

Edited March 14, 2023 by Nefras.7314

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, Methuselah.4376 said:

The thing is, all of the strengths you mentioned for a Valkyrie build are meaningless in a raid scenario because you have healers and should also have 2 brain cells to rub together in order to do/avoid mechanics. Necro's health is already high enough that it can afford some hits from the boss (though you still don't want that if you want to keep the Scholar bonus). All I kept thinking was how much higher your dps would be if you had the actual raid build.

No, it's only meaningless in the PARTICULAR raid scenario based on the team composition you are defining here. There are MANY team comps that can be successful in raids and some of those don't conform to your definition of 'meaningful' comps. 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[mandala.8507]

4 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

It does 15k on sab?! I hope this is NA. You would not even have acceptable dps in a good group since quick fb does 20k+ there while having 30k hp btw and quick scrapper does 18k+ too and it has a true 2nd healthbar.

https://dps.report/OInN-20230313-143956_sab

https://dps.report/wgXv-20230313-123354_sab

This are normal low Li groups.

You shared a log of a group with 5 dps players hitting 20k+ dmg on Sabetha and are trying to say this is a normal group? Yeah, okay. Sure dude.

Not to mention I can do a 20k+ dps mark on Sabetha on this build, so I"m not sure what you're trying to prove. You read I was in rare gear, right? And if you watched the video, you'd see it was no where near a clean pull and I was getting blasted out of shroud often and being forced to rez and use heal skills. Again, in rare valkyrie gear.

You're trying to tell me the build isn't good by comparing it to clean top 10% pulls on wingman and completely ignoring the fact I'm in rare gear and that the number you see in your meter at the end of a clean run isn't the be-all and end-all when it comes to build strength. It's like saying the best car for your morning commute is a Formula 1 vehicle because it has the potential to get you there the quickest. No one is trying to convince you this build has high damage potential in perfectly clean runs. It's purpose is to still be able to put out damage in runs that specifically are having problems, which is something many players don't realize reaper can do who only know about the glassy meta build variant.

The video I shared showcases this.

And no one even mentioned KP. Why are you talking about KP in a thread about build craft?

[mandala.8507]

3 hours ago, Nefras.7314 said:

https://dps.report/LJIw-20230313-174325_sab its 15k, average weaver is 23k - top at 30

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20230223-192158_sab_kill meta build log for reaper

The group is a minute behind average clears and 2-3 minutes behind good groups. 

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/sab

Um...you realize your log is the second highest dps reaper log on the patch for Sabetha, right? Like, across almost 300 logs on wingman searching only for pulls with reapers in them, you were the second highest dps reaper out of all of them with 23k dps.

And you're comparing that pull to me skill-clicking in rare valkyrie gear doing 15k without a flak kiter.

This only serves to further prove my point, but okay.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

It's like saying the best car for your morning commute is a Formula 1 vehicle because it has the potential to get you there the quickest.

Ya, this is a perfect analogy.

a 3.5 min Sabetha clear is not reflective of the general population. I know that post EOD brought in lots of powercreep, but a normal SAB that actually does the mechanics, is gonna be a 6-7 minute thing…and lots of people die and make mistakes in that boss fight.

The elite are stuck in their own universe cause their too busy gate keeping reality to know what a normal sab run is like lol

Edited March 14, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[NekoNoKoi.9137]

On 11/24/2022 at 3:35 AM, mandala.8507 said:

However, this build failed to change with the times, and (I believe) it no longer represents the strongest way to play power reaper or the limitations of the class.

Funnily enough, I think the times have changed in the sense that there are fewer reasons/situations to take a less optimised build in raids nowadays. Raids have been out for so long (not to mention the significant powercreep) that, for all my LFG browsing, it's becoming rare to find groups struggling so much that a build optimised for less DPS but more sustain/res power could be viable. Now that I think about it, it's actually become really rare for me to stumble upon those kinds of groups (and that's coming from someone who likes joining random LFG trainings to help out).

 

The strongest/best in slot/etc build for a DPS power reaper in high end PvE will always be whatever does the most damage, and at the moment this is the so-called "glass cannon" variant, not Valkyrie or any other tankier mix. Sometimes you'll swap out a skill or sigil (like for HT CM), but ultimately the optimal power reaper DPS build has remained quite similar over time. Not everyone wants to or can learn the most optimal rotation, and that's fine, it's why we have low APM builds which still do decent DPS. You just can't call this the strongest way to play power reaper, because it's not the case.