A Reaper Build That Has No Problem Getting Hit: The Immortal Valkyrie

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

If you ruin the experience of others by making things harder for them for your own selfish gratification, they're not going to be happy about that, obviously.

If you think that's harsh, then you should try automated tournaments.

Sure but that's on the team to make sure they don't have people on the team that ruin their experience. People should not be making choices for how they play based on the sensitivities of others. 

I mean, who here isn't playing the game for their own selfish gratification? We are all here because it's fun and it's a hobby for some people (or at least it should be). If we are going to talk about things being 'harder' for people in the team, then the best way to reduce that difficulty is for people to play builds they are familiar with and understand. That's not necessarily meta, nor does it have to be. 

Seems for some reason, players that push meta think their own selfish gratification is more important than the self gratification of someone that doesn't play meta. 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Dr Meta.3158]

35 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure but that's on the team to make sure they don't have people on the team that ruin their experience. People should not be making choices for how they play based on the sensitivities of others. 

I agree, then you kick them out of the group.

Quote

I mean, who here isn't playing the game for their own selfish gratification? We are all here because it's fun and it's a hobby for some people (or at least it should be). If we are going to talk about things being 'harder' for people in the team, then the best way to reduce that difficulty is for people to play builds they are familiar with and understand. That's not necessarily meta, nor does it have to be. 

I agree, you play by the rules of the group or you find another group that plays by the rules you agree to. If you can't find one, you play alone. 

Quote

Seems for some reason, players that push meta think their own selfish gratification is more important than the self gratification of someone that doesn't play meta. 

Because usually that one person not playing the meta is in the wrong group. This is something that should be almost intuitive by this point if you were properly socialized as a child. You don't get to do whatever the hell you want. You have to play within the constraints of the rules of the group or you get ostracized from the group.

I'm not talking to Obtena specifically example. To reasons (everyone knows why) but rather explaining this to everyone using Obtena as an exanple.

[Obtena.7952]

Don't miss the point here. If people don't want their team game experience ruined by team mates, it's their responsibility to filter potentials on the team creation side. That's not what my posts are talking about. My post is referring to how metapushers try to influence players from using non-meta builds by downgrading non-meta build value or insulting non-meta players in forum discussions.

Anyone's self gratification from playing the game is as relevant as anyone else's. The problem comes when meta proponents use their own self-gratification to justify psyops to influence how others play. That just isn't acceptable because the game is designed so people can play how they want with a wide range of builds. If people are sensitive to being in teams with non-optimal players, then that sensitivity should start and end at team creation. 

Edited March 16, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[mandala.8507]

7 hours ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

If you ruin the experience of others by making things harder for them for your own selfish gratification, they're not going to be happy about that, obviously.

If you think that's harsh, then you should try automated tournaments.

Dude, your understanding of the disparity between the build I'm suggesting and the meta build is incredibly poor. There are literally zero groups that I and most other players could find ourselves in where the dps numbers on the Immortal Valkyrie build would ruffle anyone's feathers. At most, it's an 8-9% dps loss when conditions are perfect, and when things are going poorly, it's much less than that or the disparity is even flipped and the Immortal Valkyrie Reaper build is doing higher damage.

Players like you who start an inquisition every time they lead or join a group aren't playing with me the vast majority of the time, and I promise you wouldn't know the difference between me on the valkyrie build and your average meta reaper player from looking at the dps numbers. You'd only know if you started clicking through all your allies, interrogating them before the pull had even begun.

And, to me, that makes you the person hurting others for your own selfish gratification. Not the people trying to play a build that works better for them.

[stormemperor.3745]

I am incapable of understanding, more hp means you need more healing. Which also means you need to be more careful to keep 90% scholar. You lose so much for no reason, honestly speaking you just need to stack on tag, thats like 0 work, literally stop using wasd when you are on tag and you won't get hit at all. Stick to tag as if he/she is your lover.

 

Are you playing mini game of dancing when everyone fighting boss? perhaps some nice wasd combo to make your dps lower and get hit on purpose?

 

TLDR: I see a wall of text, didn't bother. Also reaper main, no problems anywhere, easily carrying anyone in fractals, setting trademark bench to force other dps perform better.

[Dr Meta.3158]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

Dude, your understanding of the disparity between the build I'm suggesting and the meta build is incredibly poor. There are literally zero groups that I and most other players could find ourselves in where the dps numbers on the Immortal Valkyrie build would ruffle anyone's feathers. At most, it's an 8-9% dps loss when conditions are perfect, and when things are going poorly, it's much less than that or the disparity is even flipped and the Immortal Valkyrie Reaper build is doing higher damage.

Players like you who start an inquisition every time they lead or join a group aren't playing with me the vast majority of the time, and I promise you wouldn't know the difference between me on the valkyrie build and your average meta reaper player from looking at the dps numbers. You'd only know if you started clicking through all your allies, interrogating them before the pull had even begun.

And, to me, that makes you the person hurting others for your own selfish gratification. Not the people trying to play a build that works better for them.

You're so angry you're not even using logic anymore.

First off, I don't do end game pve so whatever goes on with pve, I could care less. I don't even care about the whole 35k dps debacle though I understand the plight of people being shafted by the balance team regardless of the few odd people that think being outclassed by supports in your only role of dps is good because it fits their weird fanfic role play or whatever.

What I'm stating to you and everyone else that wants to be part of a specific group is that you all need to understand that the needs of the group comes before your needs. If you can't accept that, do not be upset if you're kicked from the group. That goes for any group in a game or not. As teenagers or adults, you should have understood this concept by the time you were 5 years old. But just incase it wasn't clear then, hopefully it is clear now.

[mandala.8507]

2 minutes ago, Dr Meta.3158 said:

First off, I don't do end game pve so whatever goes on with pve, I could care less. I don't even care about the whole 35k dps debacle though I understand the plight of people being shafted by the balance team regardless of the few odd people that think being outclassed by supports in your only role of dps is good because it fits their weird fanfic role play or whatever.

If you don't even play endgame PvE, why are you commenting on the strength of a build in endgame PvE? That's wild.

And the phrase you're looking for is "I couldn't care less".

Even people who don't play the content are participating in the disinformation campaign, it seems.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

This thread is just a cesspool of people talking over each other and not listening.

End game PvE has almost been trivialized by the amount of power creep in the game.

Ultimately the goal is to get a smooth clear, so that everyone can get their loot and move on with their lives.

Play what you want, but if you notice  the team is struggling to get the clear. Then you have a duty to make changes to your build and playstyle to help the team succeed. Regardless of whoever is pulling their weight or not.

[Dr Meta.3158]

11 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

If you don't even play endgame PvE, why are you commenting on the strength of a build in endgame PvE? That's wild.

And the phrase you're looking for is "I couldn't care less".

Even people who don't play the content are participating in the disinformation campaign, it seems.

Because I have to do pve sometimes and whatever mechanical changes occur for the sake of pve also affects pve. So I care a little. Which then leads to the fact that I could care less.

Also my case in this thread isn't about "disinformation". It's about quelling the excuses for narcissistic behavior which is affecting every game mode especially since the steam release.

Also @Zex Anthon.8673 is spot on. Endgame pve/pvp/wvw is a team effort.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Dr Meta.3158

[mandala.8507]

1 minute ago, Zex Anthon.8673 said:

Play what you want, but if you notice  the team is struggling to get the clear. Then you have a duty to make changes to your build and playstyle to help the team succeed. Regardless of whoever is pulling their weight or not.

Totally agree. When someone is living in downstate on their glass cannon catalyst build and their team is struggling with the clear, it's their job to realize that build might not be the right fit for the group instead of screaming at everyone for not playing "correctly" and scapegoating the people in off-meta builds.

[Nephalem.8921]

16 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Totally agree. When someone is living in downstate on their glass cannon catalyst build and their team is struggling with the clear, it's their job to realize that build might not be the right fit for the group instead of screaming at everyone for not playing "correctly" and scapegoating the people in off-meta builds.

Cata is a very durable build with quite a lot of build in sustain. Has more healing than your reaper and is much more useful. Cata is right for every group. Just not optimal everywhere but still decent. You can even take elite glyph for a 6k team heal on short cd for a minor dps loss.

If you would have said team is struggling with cc you would have a point but otherwise? Cata is not a glass cannon. It has ~16k selfheal every 16sec with elite glyph. 6k of that being aoe. +20% allstats and -15% incoming dmg.

Can the glass ele downstate meme just die? Cata is not glass and even weaver has as much hp as a medium class from years ago with jadebot and new repair armor buff.

 

[Shadowmoon.7986]

With traits like soul eater, doing more damage give you more substain. Paradoxically trading dps for passive defence lowers your substain. 

Off meta builds are bad because they are full of meme traits, if reaper didnt have 5 of their 9 trait choices as complete worthless picks there would be build diversity. But anet refuses to fix the meme traits because "flavor".

Augury of death needs to stop life stealing and just do strike damage this allows precision and ferocity yo actually be worth the investment.

Relentless Persuit need to act like one with air and give 1.5 sec of superspeed to keep up with the movement powercreep

Defile Defenses need to trade some crit chance for strike damage, reaper is in the bad spot where most of the benefits from this trait are wasted from overcapping. In all builds it is just better to take souleater and just get to crit cap with assassin pieces, runes and or sigil swaps.

The other two traits are supposed to be bruiser traits, and I will not even pretend on how to fix them.

[mandala.8507]

Just in case anyone was curious how this build is doing after the buff:

I elected to execute a much roomier rotation than the meta build to allow for less mechanically practiced/skilled players who play with less than perfect groupmates to be at ease with this simplified version of power reaper.

• 8 auto attack chains in shroud per cycle and no shroud 2s (7 chains below 25% + shroud 5, but you can still do 8 I guess)
• 4 gravediggers per cycle on greatsword below 50%
• functional second healthbar

I'll still probably be choosing this build over the meta one for myself personally. I was tempted by the juicy competitive dps, ngl, but in the pick up groups I join, the meta build still had me a bit too frustrated during sticky pulls while this build is such smooth sailing every time.

Note: Please don't let my diabolical scheme to trick people into playing a worse build succeed and act like you've never heard of immortal valkyrie reaper! Go play the meta build instead; this build won't help you grow as a player, or whatever (obviously I'm being a bit sarcastic here, but just adding this "disclaimer" to hopefully pacify a few certain someones).

There's the update. 👍

[The Boz.2038]

Friendly reminder, kindly reader, that this build is not good, and has less sustain than the "glass cannon meta build", and less DPS than it, while somehow managing to bring less utility, too.

Take care!

[mandala.8507]

14 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

while somehow managing to bring less utility, too.

If by less utility you mean having a 900 range resurrection skill that you can use every 20 seconds. 😂

[The Boz.2038]

On 11/24/2022 at 11:27 PM, The Boz.2038 said:

...yeah, we have left the realm of realistic expectations and performance indicators now, folks.

This was months ago, and it still holds true.

[Obtena.7952]

What's relevant here is that it plays different than vanilla Zerk Reaper. That's OK. That ability to choose the builds you want to play is the whole point of the game. This is just one of those many choices. Some specs aren't as lucky to have that. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Shadowmoon.7986]

5 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

If by less utility you mean having a 900 range resurrection skill that you can use every 20 seconds. 😂

I mean pulling all the downed people into mellee with the boss so you have more friends when you are also downed. 

This is unlike heal scourge an actual good build that can pull downed out of the damage, have access to well of blood while transfusion is ticking, and have more freedom to use f4 because it is not part of its damage rotation. 

Promoting bad builds only will make people worse at the game.  Not using soul eater is less sustain. Not using death charge means less aoe blind = less sustain.  

[Obtena.7952]

Implying that the good builds make players good is putting the cart in front of the horse here. Being 'good' at the game is about knowing how to use the build you choose and knowing what to do in the encounters you play. These are the main factors that allow you to be successful playing the game.  This thread is a excellent example of someone being good at the game without adhering to the idea people should play meta. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[mandala.8507]

2 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

I mean pulling all the downed people into mellee with the boss so you have more friends when you are also downed. 

This is unlike heal scourge an actual good build that can pull downed out of the damage, have access to well of blood while transfusion is ticking, and have more freedom to use f4 because it is not part of its damage rotation. 

That's...not how signet of undeath works...at all. It just resurrects them where they are. And it's not part of the rotation either and comes off cd in no time because of signets of suffering.

Ironically, the scourges are the ones that are pulling downed allies into their unfortunately lethal shade placements.

2 hours ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Promoting bad builds only will make people worse at the game.

see above:

8 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Note: Please don't let my diabolical scheme to trick people into playing a worse build succeed and act like you've never heard of immortal valkyrie reaper! Go play the meta build instead; this build won't help you grow as a player, or whatever

[Aenesthesia.1697]

9 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Friendly reminder, kindly reader, that this build is not good, and has less sustain than the "glass cannon meta build", and less DPS than it, while somehow managing to bring less utility, too.

Take care!

 

Ah, I fail to see how this build is not good. 

 

First, the snowcrows build relies on not being hit while on shroud or your damage goes down the drain. As all builds, the benchmark is tested on a golem that doesn´t do any damage. 

 

Now, if i am playing condi mechanist, I know I can tank damage and a healer is going to top me up, so i don´t have to interrupt my rotation. If I am playing reaper, and i get hit while on shroud, I can lose a big chunk of life force and then i´ll be struggling to rebuild my life force pool because the build is optimised to barely generate the minimum required, so I´ll have to either interrupt my rotation to avoid damage if i cannot walk out of it, or suffer trying to rebuild my LF pool for a good part of the encounter.   

 

As i see it, this build has superior LF generation, and superior LF pool. Of course it will do worse on the golem where those things are not needed, but the question is: can it do better in a real encounter?

 

I would have to try it but, if playing power mechanist has taught me anything, it´s that most pug players don´t get anywhere near the benchmark and melt like cheese under pressure. An easy to execute but subpar build can outperform any meta under most circumstances, because the meta requires zero incoming damage, 100% boon uptime, no rezzing fallen comrades, and no mechanics that will interrupt your complex rotation. 

 

Practice makes perfect, and you can time your skills to nail your complex build´s potential in every encounter, but you seldom see players with this level of mastery in pugs, because pugs don´t provide the stable scenario you need to perfectly tail your rotation to each encounter (someone always screws up and you have to adapt).  

 

 

 

[The Boz.2038]

13 hours ago, Aenesthesia.1697 said:

First, the snowcrows build relies on not being hit while on shroud or your damage goes down the drain. As all builds, the benchmark is tested on a golem that doesn´t do any damage. 

 

Now, if i am playing condi mechanist, I know I can tank damage and a healer is going to top me up, so i don´t have to interrupt my rotation. If I am playing reaper, and i get hit while on shroud, I can lose a big chunk of life force and then i´ll be struggling to rebuild my life force pool because the build is optimised to barely generate the minimum required

Recent buffs have really beefed up Necro's life force generation, and that includes the meta reaper build. It "generates the minimum" if you are going in-out optimally, but it has the capacity needed to fill up fast if needed.
In comparison, this build has a marginal bit more LF generation, but sacrifices a lot to get it. 

13 hours ago, Aenesthesia.1697 said:

As i see it, this build has superior LF generation, and superior LF pool. Of course it will do worse on the golem where those things are not needed, but the question is: can it do better in a real encounter?

No. Because, again, if being hit is an actual risk to your damage output and general wellbeing, you would be better off using the meta reaper which *has actual sustain*. A bigger health pool is not sustain, but healing off your own damage output constantly is.

13 hours ago, Aenesthesia.1697 said:

I would have to try it but, if playing power mechanist has taught me anything, it´s that most pug players don´t get anywhere near the benchmark and melt like cheese under pressure. An easy to execute but subpar build can outperform any meta under most circumstances, because the meta requires zero incoming damage, 100% boon uptime, no rezzing fallen comrades, and no mechanics that will interrupt your complex rotation. 

This is some high copium wishful thinking.
A meta reaper needs zero incoming damage, 100% boon uptime, no mechanics, and no rezzing in order to reach its benchmark values.
This build also needs zero incoming damage, 100% boon uptime, no mechanics, and no rezzing in order to reach its benchmark values, which are lower than the meta build's. 
For what possible reason would you imagine incoming damage, boon uptime, mechanics, or rezzing would affect the meta build more than this? This isn't 200APM Untamed vs last May's powermech.

[Obtena.7952]

 

5 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Recent buffs have really beefed up Necro's life force generation, and that includes the meta reaper build. It "generates the minimum" if you are going in-out optimally, but it has the capacity needed to fill up fast if needed.
In comparison, this build has a marginal bit more LF generation, but sacrifices a lot to get it. 

No. Because, again, if being hit is an actual risk to your damage output and general wellbeing, you would be better off using the meta reaper which *has actual sustain*. A bigger health pool is not sustain, but healing off your own damage output constantly is.

This is some high copium wishful thinking.
A meta reaper needs zero incoming damage, 100% boon uptime, no mechanics, and no rezzing in order to reach its benchmark values.
This build also needs zero incoming damage, 100% boon uptime, no mechanics, and no rezzing in order to reach its benchmark values, which are lower than the meta build's. 
For what possible reason would you imagine incoming damage, boon uptime, mechanics, or rezzing would affect the meta build more than this? This isn't 200APM Untamed vs last May's powermech.

^^ All that might be true but ....

There are lots of reasons a build might be bad, but not being meta is never a reason. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[The Boz.2038]

27 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

^^ All that might be true but ....

There are lots of reasons a build might be bad, but not being meta is never a reason. 

"I'll take 'Things I never said' for $500, Alex!"

 

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

"I'll take 'Things I never said' for $500, Alex!"

 

No one said you did say that but what I said is still relevant to discussion. Let's not pretend you're just being academic here and simply pointing out where you disagree with the poster about how this build can be favourable to people. You might not say what your motive is but it's pretty easy to imply it based on the context of the thread and the discussion so far.

There is an underlying (and false) sentiment that builds that aren't meta are 'bad'. It's easy to see that come to surface in any thread like this. The way you are disputing the ideas of the poster you replied to makes it very evident, even if you aren't the one directly doing it. 

This is where the absurdity of metapushing comes to play because it puts a hard definition on good and bad builds based on what is meta or not ... even though some non-meta builds like this one are very capable of high performance. But whatever, the agenda for pushing meta exists, it's not going away. We will be here. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Obtena.7952