A Reaper Build That Has No Problem Getting Hit: The Immortal Valkyrie

[mandala.8507]

8 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

For what possible reason would you imagine incoming damage, boon uptime, mechanics, or rezzing would affect the meta build more than this?

Because incoming damage is a bigger problem for the meta build than it is for this build. In the meta build, your life force is a precious commodity. In this build, you could lose over 15k shroud hp during your rotation and still have life force to spare when you exit shroud. And you don't have to waste your time switching up your rotation out of shroud to get more life force if you do end up getting blasted out of it because your natural life force generation from signet of undeath will cover all the life force you need and then some.

Also, I've structured the rotation here to be more lenient concerning alacrity uptime specifically. With an extra auto attack chain in shroud (that in my testing was actually a damage increase over the 7 aa chain variant on this build), you no longer need perfect alacrity uptime to line up your cooldowns and you will find yourself free-styling out of shroud less often when alacrity uptime dips.

This build saves time on rezzing in real encounters compared to the meta build because you can just cast the signet active from range instead of having to physically move yourself to your ally's location and manually rez them. Additionally, because your shroud hp is plentiful and expendable, you can manually rez players on this build far more safely than you could with the meta build. In shroud, you could facetank attacks that would down your other squad members 5 times over while pressing f on a downed player.

And as someone who plays a lot of reaper, soul eater isn't the pinnacle of sustain you imagine it to be. Your damage outside of shroud is really low, and so the 4% damage heal you're getting for that brief 8 seconds between shroud rotations isn't actually doing that much. The meta reaper build isn't scared to get hit because of damage sticking outside of shroud anyway. It's scared to get hit because damage taken in reaper shroud can very easily force you out of it; and since most of your damage comes from your shroud rotation, constantly shortening it or having to skip it entirely can greatly impact your dps.

This build alleviates all of these concerns.

And if you want to do almost competitive dmg, you can run the middle-ground setup between this build and the meta build by taking this same signet setup, but with soul eater + the meta berserker equipment instead.

That compromise will put you around 4-5% less dps than the meta variant (more than that if you're really clean and efficient, but most players aren't) with most of the same perks of the immortal valkyrie build, just less potent. This middle-ground build (I would say) absolutely dwarfs the meta build when it comes to overall strength outside of goldilocks conditions, and anyone not attempting to speedrun in Gw2 would benefit greatly from choosing it over the meta build.

For comparison, 2 pulls of Sabetha: one with the meta build, the other with this middle-ground build:

• Meta: https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/iYv8-20230502-205132_sab
• Middle-ground: https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/gPut-20230505-002357_sab

There's just not enough daylight between these two reaper variants dps-wise for me to say the meta build is better for every player. Even if you think running the decimate defenses + valkyrie setup is overkill, this one definitely is not and makes reaper far easier to play for a variety of reasons with quite little sacrifice to your damage potential in most practical scenarios.

[Aenesthesia.1697]

 

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Recent buffs have really beefed up Necro's life force generation, and that includes the meta reaper build. It "generates the minimum" if you are going in-out optimally, but it has the capacity needed to fill up fast if needed.
In comparison, this build has a marginal bit more LF generation, but sacrifices a lot to get it. 

 

I am not sure you know how reaper works anymore? 

 

Incoming damage is not a problem while out of shroud. It´s a problem during shroud, because it depletes your life force and that cannot be topped up by a healer. If you think LF generation is enough, you haven´t faced sabetha with a group of randoms that constantly refused to walk away with their bombs. 

 

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No. Because, again, if being hit is an actual risk to your damage output and general wellbeing, you would be better off using the meta reaper which *has actual sustain*. A bigger health pool is not sustain, but healing off your own damage output constantly is.

 

The "actual sustain" of the meta reaper is actually low sustain with low damage, that´s marginally better than the other options. No one takes the Fiend for the healing.  

 

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For what possible reason would you imagine incoming damage, boon uptime, mechanics, or rezzing would affect the meta build more than this? This isn't 200APM Untamed vs last May's powermech.

 

Because you stay in shroud longer (actually, you can stay in shroud forever against the golem using Fear of Death), and this build is optimized for reaper auto attacks. Your reaper AA generates might and quickness, so those won´t be a problem for you, and also apply vulnerability. So, you have might and quickness covered, and don´t rely so much on alacrity since you don´t have access to your utilities and the AAs don´t need alacrity. See how boon uptime affects you way less? 

 

Then you have incoming damage, which you can try to survive with Signet of Undeath LF generation, and you can even throw in some Fear of Death (since you don´t really want to go out of Shroud ever, making Soul Barbs a bit of a waste).

 

Again, this works in theory. I would have to try if but I updated my necro to ascended before this patch and I am a bit reluctant to spend the gold on valkyrie gear just to try it. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

22 hours ago, Aenesthesia.1697 said:

If you think LF generation is enough, you haven´t faced sabetha with a group of randoms that constantly refused to walk away with their bombs. 

"This is not enough because people keep bombing me with raid boss mechanic" is a rather weird attempt to make a point. Well, guess what: if "randoms constantly refuse to walk away with their bombs" and you're not reacting to it then you're getting downed. Does that mean hp is too low? Or maybe that... some people fail the mechanics?

[Kabansky.9160]

The kitten is this all about? Anyone half-decent at playing Reaper would at first glance instantly realize this is a solid build capable of solid damage.

Is it better than the meta one? No.

Is it safe, versatile and easy to play? Yes. 

Ways ahead of the meta one in solo open world for sure. 

You can play it in any instanced content outside, maybe, HT CM, and no one would care. Or you can play meta for slightly higher risk and reward. It doesn't matter much, everything's easy, and a good player will still do better with signers than a bad one with double wells. Why all the hate and elitism? 

 

[The Boz.2038]

59 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

"This is not enough because people keep bombing me with raid boss mechanic" is a rather weird attempt to make a point. Well, guess what: if "randoms constantly refuse to walk away with their bombs" and you're not reacting to it then you're getting downed. Does that mean hp is too low? Or maybe that... some people fail the mechanics?

This neatly folds into yet one more aspect of why some crutches are actually making people not learn the game. It is a case of short term adaptations that lead to long term loss.

27 minutes ago, Kabansky.9160 said:

Anyone half-decent at playing Reaper would at first glance instantly realize this is a solid build capable of solid damage.

Eh, sure.

27 minutes ago, Kabansky.9160 said:

Is it better than the meta one? No

You will note that the OP keeps claiming otherwise.

28 minutes ago, Kabansky.9160 said:

Is it safe, versatile and easy to play? Yes. 

Eh, sure.

28 minutes ago, Kabansky.9160 said:

Ways ahead of the meta one in solo open world for sure. 

I'd kinda say, no, unless your maximum is, like, veterans and the odd elite in a map meta.

29 minutes ago, Kabansky.9160 said:

Or you can play meta for slightly higher risk and reward.

The Meta is not higher risk for higher reward, it's higher activity for higher reward. The OP claims this build gains in sustain by trading away the sustain of the meta build for a higher HP number. 

30 minutes ago, Kabansky.9160 said:

Why all the hate and elitism? 

This build is "allowed" to exist. There are dozens of builds like this that people post, and do not get this type of reaction.
But "this is better than meta, even though it has lower DPS, lower sustain, and lower utility (unless you need a rez bot, lol)"? That is just not a sane talking point, and it needs to be pushed back on.

[Methuselah.4376]

On 5/6/2023 at 12:33 AM, Aenesthesia.1697 said:

The "actual sustain" of the meta reaper is actually low sustain with low damage, that´s marginally better than the other options. No one takes the Fiend for the healing.  

I am not sure I understand your point here. The meta build optimizes damage, ergo it is designed for the highest potential damage a Reaper can reach. Soul Eater gives you 5% of your damage deal out of shroud back as health therefore the better your dps (which Soul Eater contributes to) the better your sustain. 

Meta builds are meta for a reason. It's not some arbitrary decision made by the toxic "elite" players who want to gatekeep, it's what's been tested to the maximum so the best of the best can be discerned. Does that mean that other builds shouldn't exist? Of course they should. But claiming that a build is better than the meta for the role it is meta for, it's sheer stubbornness.  Furthermore, the logic that "this build is better because your squad might be brain dead and not do mechanics" is a bit of a non sequitur, because any build would suffer under those conditions and at that point it's not your dps that would matter but raid training for the people involved. 

Again, nothing wrong with enjoying a build but most of the backlash to the OP is due to their seeming stubbornness in insisting their build is better. They can say it feels better for them and their play style and they admit it's not better than the meta, but that doesn't seem to be the case. 

[Dadnir.5038]

On 5/6/2023 at 11:43 PM, Kabansky.9160 said:

Ways ahead of the meta one in solo open world for sure.

As a matter of fact it isn't.

The meta build is more self-sufficient than this build which make it a superior option in solo open world PvE. The build rely on decimate defense in order to justify taking in large amount of vitality. Unfortunately it mean that the build's crit chance depend on building and maintaining vulnerability on your foes which will take time and ressources while a large health pool will be generally harder to regenerate than a lower health pool would be with Soul eater. Even then, if you're disturb with the low health pool that a glassy build have, gearing yourself with marauder on the meta build will yield better results than going valkyrie.

[KrHome.1920]

Additionally to the mentioned souleater synergy with critical hits:

Building up the vulnerability to deal some damage with valkyre gear takes more time than to just kill the target with marauder gear. That bit of additional health of valkyre while losing all inital burst capability compared to marauder is never worth picking it. This is especially true with the recent damage updates for reaper. Lots of reaper skills can one- or twoshot open world mobs when they critcal hit, which won't happen with valkyre gear.

[mandala.8507]

9 hours ago, Methuselah.4376 said:

Meta builds are meta for a reason. It's not some arbitrary decision made by the toxic "elite" players who want to gatekeep, it's what's been tested to the maximum so the best of the best can be discerned. Does that mean that other builds shouldn't exist? Of course they should. But claiming that a build is better than the meta for the role it is meta for, it's sheer stubbornness.  Furthermore, the logic that "this build is better because your squad might be brain dead and not do mechanics" is a bit of a non sequitur, because any build would suffer under those conditions and at that point it's not your dps that would matter but raid training for the people involved. 

Again, nothing wrong with enjoying a build but most of the backlash to the OP is due to their seeming stubbornness in insisting their build is better. They can say it feels better for them and their play style and they admit it's not better than the meta, but that doesn't seem to be the case. 

Well, that's because when I originally made this thread, the build I was recommending was on track to be competitive with the meta build while also being a better build for most players. The people in here disparaging it simply got bailed out by huge last-minute buffs to life force on reaper and a crit chance buff to death perception, and so the weaknesses this build remedied on reaper were heavily diminished and the gap between the two builds was mostly maintained in terms of damage potential.

I still believe that most players are better off running a signets of suffering variant of power reaper, though.

The theorycrafters for this game aren't infallible, and it isn't some slight against them to point out when they aren't recommending the best-fitting builds for players of different skill levels than them. They're pretty much all speedrunners, and so they make builds that cater to speedrunning/speed clears. There's nothing wrong with that, but being able to speed clear isn't the primary goal of most players who want to raid in Gw2.

Yet sadly, the culture around buildcraft for this game is needlessly binary. Either we're recommended the builds designed for speed clears or we're recommended the most simplistic builds possible labeled "for those with disabilities", and it's taboo to want to play the vast range of builds with their own strengths and unique playstyles between those two ends of the difficulty spectrum.

We're told:

• "you can play what you want, but expect to be excluded for doing so"
• "you can play what you want, but know you're being selfish and no one has to respect you if you choose to do so"
• "you can play what you want, but you can't recommend a build that works better for you to others"
• "you can play what you want, but the toxicity you face for doing so isn't actually toxic, it's necessary pushback"

I don't agree with the things we're being told and I think the culture that defends this pointless polarization of the raiding community should change for the sake of players and for the sake of the game.

Sorry, not sorry.

Edited May 8, 2023 by mandala.8507

[Kabansky.9160]

I think I'm starting to see the problem with this thread...

So I've put an unnecessarily large amount of time into reading the whole thing and actually taking Valk reaper into some strikes and fractals over the weekend, which is, apparently, more than most esteemed experts here bothered to do. And what I have to tell you is that anyone claiming it doesn't have enough damage or sustain or whatever is a delusional lunatic. Maybe not this exact version, but I don't think it's enough to consider mine a different build altogether.

The setup is as follows:
>Zerker amulet to cap crit, rest is full Valkyrie. This gives you a whopping 60k effective HP, with shroud alone beefier than, like, 2 eles combined. I'm pretty sure you can go full Dragon without losing any damage to trade some vitality for the ability to never care about Fury, ever again.
>Scholar, Force and Centaur Slaying (because meta).
>Pick any weapon you like, you won't be using it much anyway.

For skills pick:
>Healing signet for passive 400 hps that heals through shroud (no sustain lol) and minor dps boost.
>Power signet for MOAR POWAH.
>Res signet to hold the whole thing together.
>Elite golem cause it's the only choice that actually does something until they add an elite signet.
>Last skill is up to you. Pick a well for better burst, another signet for the memes, some life force generation, some cc, whatever. 

Key traits are Fear of Death, Signets of Suffering and Decimate Defenses. 

Now go out there, pop shroud, put AA on autocast and watch some Netflix. Yes, it's THAT easy, bordering the levels of old rifle mech degeneracy. Use 4 off cd, double-tap 3 for infinite shroud. Maybe keep the damage reduction for a few seconds if you're feeling smart today. Did I say your shroud is infinite? Well, that's only if you actually utilize your brain to dodge at least some attacks aimed at your beautiful necro face. I kitten you not, in some t4 runs the damage never even scratched my real HP. It just works™.

Now the juicy part. Does it have THE DAMAGE? Actually, yes, it does. Does it have the MOST damage? No, Zerk double well is still your way to go. But did you really expect to top the charts with one button? It absolutely destroys, like, 95% of the challenges the game can currently throw at you. I stomped every t4, did above average in low req CM groups, and never once dropped below 3-4th dps in strikes. ALL WITH ONE BUTTON. Well, 2 and a half, actually. You can easily go higher than that with fancy rotations and Soul Barbs, but why not just play meta at that point?

Cons compared to Zerker:
>Slightly lower damage. Neither 1% nor 20%, as people here have claimed. Irrelevant unless you're speedclearing.
>Noticeably lower burst, no way around that. Irrelevant unless you're some 40sec Siax Sweatlord.
>Not many buttons to press. Some might consider it a pro, but overall utility is rather lackluster. CC is still pretty good though.
>Relies on the recent buffs too much. I feel like Anet reverting the AA coefficients would nuke this into oblivion while "only" severely hurting the Zerker variant. Well, it's safe until June, at least.

Overall, this ended up one of the best LI builds I've ever played. 10/10, 5 stars, all that stuff. The only 3 situations I wouldn't recomment playing it in:
>Condi fight. Well, duh.
>You don't have enough damage. I can alrady feel all the meta guys jumping at this one.
>You're in a group with a warrior and 2 engineers that refuse to bring kittenING BOONSTRIP. Seriously, not swapping was really hard, but I persevered through perma protection for the sake of testing.

And the best part is that I don't even have to prove anything or engage in toxic discussions. Literally anyone can simply try it and see for themselves if it's worth it or not. What a time to be alive.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Kabansky.9160

[Methuselah.4376]

Just played in T4 fractals with someone who was running this build. Their dps was 10k behind mine and they were dying quite often. 

[Obtena.7952]

21 minutes ago, Methuselah.4376 said:

Just played in T4 fractals with someone who was running this build. Their dps was 10k behind mine and they were dying quite often. 

Sure ... because it's NOT the build a player uses that makes them good or bad.

Again (and again, and again ...) being successful in this game is about knowing  how to use your build and what to do in the encounter. 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Nephalem.8921]

21 minutes ago, Methuselah.4376 said:

Just played in T4 fractals with someone who was running this build. Their dps was 10k behind mine and they were dying quite often. 

Because it trades 4% outgoing dmg into healing for some inflated hp numbers and shroud uptime. That trait heals for 1600-8k per gravedigger cast depending on targets hit.

The dps of this build is better than before but still vastly behind meta.

The poster above you also dropped an additional 10% mod on top for good measure. On top of dropping 1 well and shout for burst.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Nephalem.8921

[Nephalem.8921]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... because it's NOT the build a player uses that makes them good or bad.

Again (and again, and again ...) being successful in this game is about knowing  how to use your build and what to do in the encounter. 

 

That is not how numbers work. I would not go down with this but i would drop like 8-10k dps depending on which variation i use.

In fractals when playing with players with hands most bosses phase after opening burst and in a 15sec phase dropping shout already costs like 2k dps. The build also drops a well and dmg mods on top.

[Dr Meta.3158]

Post your berserker vs valkyrie golem videos on the smallest golem.

Look at the first 20% hp mark (burst) and final dps at the end.

Then do it again while pulsing moderate damage.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Dr Meta.3158

[mandala.8507]

3 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

I would not go down with this but i would drop like 8-10k dps depending on which variation i use.

That is quite literally impossible. There isn't even a 7k difference between this build and the power reaper bench of 40.3k going around right now.

If you could stop just making stuff up, that would be greatly appreciated.

3 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

That is not how numbers work.

To use your own words.

[Kabansky.9160]

Tried CM strikes today, and honestly, it didn't go quite so well this time. Not quite support level yet, but way, way closer. Still super safe, consistent and easy though. I'm pretty sure you can still beat enrage with this much damage, but watching some pesky mesmer hit twice as hard doesn't feel good tbh. Guess that's the upper limit for the build, or at least I'm not good enough to push it further.

[mandala.8507]

3 minutes ago, Kabansky.9160 said:

Tried CM strikes today, and honestly, it didn't go quite so well this time. Not quite support level yet, but way, way closer. Still super safe, consistent and easy though. I'm pretty sure you can still beat enrage with this much damage, but watching some pesky mesmer hit twice as hard doesn't feel good tbh. Guess that's the upper limit for the build, or at least I'm not good enough to push it further.

Sunqua Peak practically requires ranged dps to be competitive because of how often Ai moves. A competent virtuoso is going to crush you regardless of which reaper build you choose.

7 minutes ago, Kabansky.9160 said:

or at least I'm not good enough to push it further.

When we're comparing to others, relative player skill is certainly a variable that shouldn't be ignored.

[Kabansky.9160]

4 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Sunqua Peak practically requires ranged dps to be competitive because of how often Ai moves. A competent virtuoso is going to crush you regardless of which reaper build you choose.

Nah, that's strike CMs. Haven't even bothered trying it on Ai, would've probably failed miserably anyway XD
On the other hand, I would rather pick some ranged condi over Reaper for EoD strikes any day, and normal ones still went fine.

[mandala.8507]

Just now, Kabansky.9160 said:

Nah, that's strike CMs. Haven't even bothered trying it on Ai, would've probably failed miserably anyway XD
On the other hand, I would rather pick some ranged condi over Reaper for EoD strikes any day, and normal ones still went fine.

Oh, my brain died I guess, haha.

I can say confidently, though, that there's no way for someone to do double your dmg with the build I benched after the patch unless you are doing something incorrectly or just straight up not hitting the boss.

The meta reaper build would suffer just as greatly, if not more in strike CMs than the Immortal Valkyrie because the incoming damage in those fights can be more intense and you could end up having a tough time finishing your shroud rotation in those fights.

For instance, this is a normal mode pick up group run with the middle-ground variant I mentioned previously on Ankka:

https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/log/20230505-172000_xunjadejunk_kill

The fight cadences of the CMs aren't so different from the normal modes that this performance would change drastically in them. If anything, you'd always have an easier time finishing your shroud rotation on the signets of suffering variants, and so the performance gap dps-wise between them and the meta build would shrink in these more challenging and lengthier encounters. 

[Nephalem.8921]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

That is quite literally impossible. There isn't even a 7k difference between this build and the power reaper bench of 40.3k going around right now.

If you could stop just making stuff up, that would be greatly appreciated.

To use your own words.

Bench != encounter performance.

Burst contributes more to dps than sustained shroud autos if phases are short

Your build drops a well and the shout for 2 signets. Both of these combined lose you ~4k dps in a 15sec burst window. More if the burst phase is shorter which is the case on some encounter. Then the -10% from mod and the poster above me suggested dropping soul barbs too for lf on fear so another 10% mod gone. 

[mandala.8507]

15 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Burst contributes more to dps than sustained shroud autos if phases are short

Your build drops a well and the shout for 2 signets. Both of these combined lose you ~4k dps in a 15sec burst window. More if the burst phase is shorter which is the case on some encounter.

If you're phasing bosses so quickly that the burst differential matters, you're well outside the range of players I'm catering to by sharing this build.

Obviously there are separate concerns for players aiming to get through a whole boss phase in under 15 seconds, but at that point, benchmark dps numbers and ease-of-use cease to be useful metrics to base your build choices upon.

Of course you don't need a safe build if you just deleted a quarter of the boss's healthbar in 10 seconds and phased it before it could do anything.

But this isn't the reality of instanced content for the vast majority of players.

[Nephalem.8921]

14 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

If you're phasing bosses so quickly that the burst differential matters, you're well outside the range of players I'm catering to by sharing this build.

Obviously there are separate concerns for players aiming to get through a whole boss phase in under 15 seconds, but at that point, benchmark dps numbers and ease-of-use cease to be useful metrics to base your build choices upon.

Of course you don't need a safe build if you just deleted a quarter of the boss's healthbar in 10 seconds and phased it before it could do anything.

But this isn't the reality of instanced content for the vast majority of players.

It is not the reality for the majority of players because they use low dps build and sacrifice dps everywhere for some fake survivability.

[mandala.8507]

9 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

It is not the reality for the majority of players because they use low dps build and sacrifice dps everywhere for some fake survivability.

Oh...right. It's because of my nefarious schemes to put players on bad builds that competitive dps isn't the norm. 

Surely that's why most players aren't doing competitive dps. That's probably why I have all these logs in this thread of me doing top dps on these "bad builds" too! Because all those other players were tricked into running bad builds also!

When will my reign of terror end?! 😭

(obligatory /s)

[Kabansky.9160]

24 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

It is not the reality for the majority of players because they use low dps build and sacrifice dps everywhere for some fake survivability.

So the "right" way to play the game is the one you see fit, and not the developers who actually spend time and resourses creating all those intricate mechanics you skip with damage?