Do you use Alliance Tactic on Vindicator?

[khawki.4205]

I'm wondering if swapping Alliance is even a thing in any gamemode. I know that in PvE instanced content it is not used, and no wonder why (can't really do healing DPS build, no runes fit for that, not to mention it would not fit in meta), but I do not know if it is used somewhere else.

If it isn't, then maybe splitting it into two legends would allow buffing them separately.

[pninak.1069]

you can already buff them seperately simply based on the boons each part of the alliance provides. I am kinda disappointed how ppl view it. the legend combo got so many useful abilities. compared to other legends where you only use 1-2 skills alliance pretty much guarantees that you use all of them. each has low energy costs and short cooldowns while providing more value compared to other legends that use more energy. I also find the combo to allow the most customization of your build bc other specs seem to be pinned down on one perticular build. I personally use my own builds only with slightly off-meta variants. meta variants propably use shiro and jalis only with li-build as a base.

[khawki.4205]

1 hour ago, pninak.1069 said:

you can already buff them seperately simply based on the boons each part of the alliance provides. I am kinda disappointed how ppl view it. the legend combo got so many useful abilities. compared to other legends where you only use 1-2 skills alliance pretty much guarantees that you use all of them. each has low energy costs and short cooldowns while providing more value compared to other legends that use more energy. I also find the combo to allow the most customization of your build bc other specs seem to be pinned down on one perticular build. I personally use my own builds only with slightly off-meta variants. meta variants propably use shiro and jalis only with li-build as a base.

Well, I see separating them as "easy option" that is less risky to make totally broken espec.

But as I also mentioned, running both legends would require some runes that benefit both power and healing. (PvE POV)

There is also thing with energy, as if those are as one legend, they share energy bar, and Alliance Tactic doesn't replenish it.

On the side note, I'd love to see your build (if it's PvE)

[Kodama.6453]

Not gonna lie, always thought that the initial concept of the skills flipping over one by one after usage was way more engaging and interesting, even if it had some struggles to make it work.

If they just had experimented a little bit more with that idea instead, like trying out alternative scalings (like, for example, letting the damage skills from the luxon side scale with healing power or something).

[Zaret.1450]

3 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Not gonna lie, always thought that the initial concept of the skills flipping over one by one after usage was way more engaging and interesting, even if it had some struggles to make it work.

If they just had experimented a little bit more with that idea instead, like trying out alternative scalings (like, for example, letting the damage skills from the luxon side scale with healing power or something).

the thing is having stats that would work, power, prec, feroc and healing power, and having them spread in a way that would sinergize, energy would be another problem, all rev skills have ridiculous energy drain and we also need to acount for weapons, gs is a weapon that only works in the dps side of the legend while the healing one doesnt have anything, on traits too many traits are wasted on dodge, and the fliping and endurance  regen mecanics have their problems too.

Now i might give an unpopular opinion, but i think all the flipping and one dodge mecanics were wrong and were awfull, first of all this game is made around 2 dodges, so making it just 1 is too much of a disadvantage no matter how much dmg you make it or if you give rev 5 blocks, for the auto swap.... rev has too little control over its skills already, legends give very little control, in every situation you probably only have 2 or 3 usefull skills, and swapping legends is too limited too, it has cd, you allwais start on 50 unless you use a trait with a very specific condition, and you end up with another legend from wich you only want 2 or 3 skills again.

Right now aliance swap isnt bad, as long as energy is reworked a bit, and the useless traits are changed, it should work.

If i had to choose id make a trait that locks you in each aliance, one for dmg and one for boons/heal, and the last one id leave the jump trait, so the meme rocketman vindi stays alive and you have a 2 aliance option.

[Elessaria.9142]

I voted No even though I do use it; the reason being I only use it immediately before and after Legend swap to get double proc of Balance In Discord. I use precisely zero Viktor utilities.

 

A third heal would be nice if it felt good to use, but it just doesn't compared to taking a slightly tankier build/gear set.

 

The condition cleanse would be nice but my Open World build has permanent resolution and 20% condi duration reduction so I just wait until I swap back into Jalis for Soothing Stone; also I use Action Camera because I'm a n00b and using Tree Song on yourself is a pain in the proverbial when using AC...

 

Sad thing is I would 100% use it if it didn't have the 10s cooldown because the utilities in both Legends are really good (Archemorus has god-like utility honestly, especially with the reduction in Energy cost coming up). I'm just not going to lock myself onto a set of skills that aren't optimal for my build for a full 10 seconds under any circumstances; ESPECIALLY because the shared Energy pool makes St Viktor's skills much less useful than a Legend swap as an "oh-kitten" button.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

If you’re not using both you’re not maximizing the stance’s potential at all. The sole exception is instanced PvE as a DPS and even then the condi cleanse/group heal/group breakstun can have niche uses

[Elessaria.9142]

7 hours ago, khawki.4205 said:

Well, I see separating them as "easy option" that is less risky to make totally broken espec.

But as I also mentioned, running both legends would require some runes that benefit both power and healing. (PvE POV)

There is also thing with energy, as if those are as one legend, they share energy bar, and Alliance Tactic doesn't replenish it.

On the side note, I'd love to see your build (if it's PvE)

Energy Meld should really involve something with Energy. I've said in a few other places for my money it would be a perfect place to grant +100% Energy generation for 5 seconds. That's enough to make a panic swap into Viktor worth it because you can actually use some skills, without giving you a big chunk of Energy that would let you spam some of the powerful utilities on another Legend on swap. I'd still be annoyed at having to wait 10 seconds to get back onto Archemorus but it would at least be something to consider whereas right now it doesn't even enter my mind as worthwhile.

 

Regarding runes that's just a facet of the missed opportunity with the last expansion to fill some gaps, like condi Alac for Specter and power Alac for Mechanist or Willbender. Rune of the Vindicator could have looked something like

 

(1) 25 Power

(2) 35 Healing Power

(3) 50 Power

(4) 65 Healing Power

(5) 100 Power

(6) +10% Boon Duration; +10% Incoming Healing; 1s Aegis and Resistance to nearby Allies when using a Heal skill. 20s cooldown

[Buran.3796]

8 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Not gonna lie, always thought that the initial concept of the skills flipping over one by one after usage was way more engaging and interesting, even if it had some struggles to make it work.

   The initial design was horrible in content involving fighting vs other humans.

   I'm having hard time using Viktor due is in  the F3 instead of the F2. I understand that F2 for Energy Meld has sense due if you don't want to use the Alliance the Energy Meld mechanic is available for any  Vindicator build and is always in F2 the same as regular legend swap is always in F1. So the swap between Archemorus and Viktor is only in F3 if you run the Alliance legend.

   ...But is a problem for me since my mouse has already 7 hot keys in use and hitting F3 in the keyboard is harder than F1 or F2: is not that hard with Guardian due Virtue of Courage has usually a long cooldown, but in the Alliance both at PvE and WvW you want to move from Archy to Viktor oftenly.

   Having Viktor is important due the heals in the Alliance are tiny, and if you run Shiro, you absolutely need to use the three heals for sustain in WvW (in PvP the cooldown nerf was so massive that I rarely swap to Viktor, which in reality doesn't matter because usually don't run Vindi in PvP, and lately don't PvP that much anyway).  The other important factor is Tree Song, since Revenant has been traditionally weak vs conditions, and that skill changes that. But the thing is that I never use the Urn...

   The thing is that albeit the energy cost of half of the Alliance skills are low, since swaping doesn't provide energy, the Alliance is most expensive legend. I would prefer just having Archemorus with no swap, with Scavenger Burst replaced by Tree Song, and the Spear replaced by a cc skill. Now that the range of the spear will be cut in 40%, is time to ditch useless ranged skills in a mele brawler. Won't happen, but hey: then don't wonder why Vindi isn't used at instanced content...

   But I don't want to be entirely negative: Vindi for me is rather good at WvW roaming and solo PvE content (not that good at large events due lack of ranged weapons, for that Renegade is the way...  unless you prefer a Rifle Mech). 

   What I do find out entirely redundant is Energvy Meld: since the August patch, I never use it.: Song of Arboreum + Fireworks runes + Energy sigils and you never will need that crap. That's why I find out EM filling F2 so frustrating... I don't want a buff neiter a rework, I just would love if they REMOVE Energy Meld from the game.

[The Boz.2038]

22 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Not gonna lie, always thought that the initial concept of the skills flipping over one by one after usage was way more engaging and interesting, even if it had some struggles to make it work.

If they just had experimented a little bit more with that idea instead, like trying out alternative scalings (like, for example, letting the damage skills from the luxon side scale with healing power or something).

this tbh

[pninak.1069]

On 11/27/2022 at 2:10 PM, khawki.4205 said:

Well, I see separating them as "easy option" that is less risky to make totally broken espec.

But as I also mentioned, running both legends would require some runes that benefit both power and healing. (PvE POV)

There is also thing with energy, as if those are as one legend, they share energy bar, and Alliance Tactic doesn't replenish it.

On the side note, I'd love to see your build (if it's PvE)

 sure. this is one I used to run a couple days ago for a few weeks. Focus is on keeping up boons like resistence from alliance aswell as having a way to abuse the stronger degen from the trait for purposefully reducing your health for victor.

 instead of pact of pain I used demonic resistence to get another dmg reduction on top of vassal of the empire's protection.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAEJlxQmMP6k1RpMOClRSqMCqkj3ye0F-zRRYVKmq1DcQQnRPS1aWVObZ6RA-e

this also let's you use impossible odds indefinitly unless you use skills.

 

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAEJlxQmMP6k1RpMOClRSqMCqkFtze0F-zxQY7oaF1VMkzZ0jUtmVlnWmeEA-e

this is one for the upcoming patch. focus is on maximizing dodges. while the previous build has cele stats I found them pretty bad later as alliance lacks conditions so a bunch of stats are literally useless. with zealot's you can atleast optimize the healing to others and yourself.

 

regarding the offensive luxon dodge I usually used battle scars as you get a stack per applied vulnerability which includes the dodge. if focussed on luxon side you can take invocation and focus on might via fury(although at this point you shouldn't have trouble reaching 25 stacks on your own already. traits I used for this one were 3 3 3. devastation would be 1 2 3. idea here is that once you go below 50% battle scars is buffed twice bc of additional 240 healing power from vindicator and doubled from the trait itself.

 

still playing around with setups to play, but find the stance pretty intersting. have to agree that I'd have liked it more if they kept the old swap of the skills. it would make the espec the most difficult class to learn, but eventually also reward the most once you got a grip.

 

[Elessaria.9142]

3 hours ago, pninak.1069 said:

 sure. this is one I used to run a couple days ago for a few weeks. Focus is on keeping up boons like resistence from alliance aswell as having a way to abuse the stronger degen from the trait for purposefully reducing your health for victor.

 instead of pact of pain I used demonic resistence to get another dmg reduction on top of vassal of the empire's protection.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAEJlxQmMP6k1RpMOClRSqMCqkj3ye0F-zRRYVKmq1DcQQnRPS1aWVObZ6RA-e

this also let's you use impossible odds indefinitly unless you use skills.

 

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAEJlxQmMP6k1RpMOClRSqMCqkFtze0F-zxQY7oaF1VMkzZ0jUtmVlnWmeEA-e

this is one for the upcoming patch. focus is on maximizing dodges. while the previous build has cele stats I found them pretty bad later as alliance lacks conditions so a bunch of stats are literally useless. with zealot's you can atleast optimize the healing to others and yourself.

 

regarding the offensive luxon dodge I usually used battle scars as you get a stack per applied vulnerability which includes the dodge. if focussed on luxon side you can take invocation and focus on might via fury(although at this point you shouldn't have trouble reaching 25 stacks on your own already. traits I used for this one were 3 3 3. devastation would be 1 2 3. idea here is that once you go below 50% battle scars is buffed twice bc of additional 240 healing power from vindicator and doubled from the trait itself.

 

still playing around with setups to play, but find the stance pretty intersting. have to agree that I'd have liked it more if they kept the old swap of the skills. it would make the espec the most difficult class to learn, but eventually also reward the most once you got a grip.

 

Interesting, we seem to set up in a fairly similar way; I run the following at the minute:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAYxzldQmMH6k1QpsHCl9RqsAqkD1yb0F-zRRYVhDBOqR3HSYSgoFCprCE6BJA2DvmKMuBA-e
 

I guess I don't see what using Saint Viktor gains, as by rotating between Jalis and Archemorus I can keep up permanent Fury, 25 Might, Protection, Quickness, Regeneration, Resistance, Resolution, Stability, Swiftness AND Vigor very easily. The Energy I would use on Viktor is better spent hitting Spear, Scavenger Burst and Reaver's Rage right before Legend swap. Could get more damage using GS instead of Staff but I prefer to have the CC available and using the 4 to Blast Inspiring Reinforcement.

[draxynnic.3719]

Sometimes? It's a useful option to have when the pressure is on and you just need a little extra healing and/or condition removal before switching to the other legend.

But yeah, it is a bit hard to really make work due to healing and damage requiring separate stats. One can kinda do a celestial Mallyx/Alliance build (Scavenger Burst burns, greatsword offers a bit of chill, the central dodge trait also chills), but I don't see that really making it in endgame content. Maybe a trait that converts HP to power or vice versa would be in order.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

On 11/27/2022 at 5:10 AM, khawki.4205 said:

I'm wondering if swapping Alliance is even a thing in any gamemode. I know that in PvE instanced content it is not used, and no wonder why (can't really do healing DPS build, no runes fit for that, not to mention it would not fit in meta), but I do not know if it is used somewhere else.

If it isn't, then maybe splitting it into two legends would allow buffing them separately.

It is crucial in competitive modes. 

[otto.5684]

On 11/27/2022 at 3:33 PM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

If you’re not using both you’re not maximizing the stance’s potential at all. The sole exception is instanced PvE as a DPS and even then the condi cleanse/group heal/group breakstun can have niche uses

In pve you only switch if you need the heal or condi cleanse and then you switch legend right away.  NOt that I think it is bad, but a dps loss. You only use it if you absolutely have to. Still, Having options is always a plus.

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

In pve you only switch if you need the heal or condi cleanse and then you switch legend right away.  NOt that I think it is bad, but a dps loss. You only use it if you absolutely have to. Still, Having options is always a plus.

Yeah, it was having options that made people complain about FB so much.

[Arthelad.5418]

Yes. Alliance stance has big personal utility as a whole. I dont swap to viktor if i dont need to but i will if i need to heal or to heal allies in a desperate situation.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Arthelad.5418
didn't read post title corectly. wrote comment about wrong thing

[Arklite.4013]

Archemorus is obviously great, but Viktor has a lot of good ones too - notably the condi cleanse and a second heal and stunbreak. In group content I often find myself using some blue skills to keep the group healthy if there isn't enough support already - the 1 second evade on the dodge is great, and there's also niche use for channeling the urn, like the movement speed or damage resistance.

 

In PvP, you have to use all your tools either way

[Bish.8627]

I only really open PvE with my vindi, I do use it but mostly in defence. If I take damage I heal in red, pop blue heal again, also the condi cleanse AOE is NUTS, as is the stun break. So on a world boss like Tequatl where there are mutiple knocks having that stun break is amazing. Having dwarf as the other legend also gives you a ton of options if solo killing harder mobs, I did some of the champs in the Lions arch season 1 story solo by using this combo.

I find being locked into one or the other kind of annoying, I wish you could select certain abilities to auto switch like in BETA, but only the ones you want, just like any other class can select its utilities. So lets say, the heal will auto switch, then none of the others apart from maybe the stun break.

[Telgum.6071]

Don't know about PvE but alliance is really strong in pvp and wvw 

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I use it when I need extra sustain or Condi cleanse, it's kind of a similar emergency utility as firebrand tomes when not playing a heal build. 

[SleepyBat.9034]

On 11/27/2022 at 4:10 AM, khawki.4205 said:

I'm wondering if swapping Alliance is even a thing in any gamemode. I know that in PvE instanced content it is not used, and no wonder why (can't really do healing DPS build, no runes fit for that, not to mention it would not fit in meta), but I do not know if it is used somewhere else.

If it isn't, then maybe splitting it into two legends would allow buffing them separately.

I tried it in WvW a bit, wasn't a fan of the 3 second channel  heal skill it had.

[Yasai.3549]

On 11/27/2022 at 10:14 PM, Kodama.6453 said:

Not gonna lie, always thought that the initial concept of the skills flipping over one by one after usage was way more engaging and interesting, even if it had some struggles to make it work.

If they just had experimented a little bit more with that idea instead, like trying out alternative scalings (like, for example, letting the damage skills from the luxon side scale with healing power or something).

Should have done something like the  Grandmaster trait choosing Arch or Vik to start on. 

Say, Forerunner of Death will always start your skills on Arch side up first and Saint of Zu Heltzer will always start you on Vik side up first. This way you still have the flavour of the struggle, but also some way to influence the dual-legend design based on how you want to fight. 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Yasai.3549