A Comparison of the 3 Rifles AA or How I stopped complaining and learned to deal with a 2 round burst

[Holly.8190]

So I have seen a lot of complaining since the patch dropped (We all have) especially about the Rifle AA change (And the Mech leash but that requires a whole new post) seeing as I use Rifle on all 3 Classes it is available on (And hopefully Ranger gets one soon please Anet). This isn't like a science test I just stood (Or Kneeled) behind a mil health golem (Not gonna do 4 mil its like 2am) and watched Arc DPS do its thing. The Golems had all condis and had all boons on my toons.

 

First up The Deadeye(Also known as the Queen of RP Walks)

 

The Build is your standard rifle deadeye build Crit Strikes, Deadly Arts and Deadeye (Duh), Full Zerker with Scholar runes and also i was Kneeled so using Deadly Aim as the AA

https://imgur.com/us3vt7F

A Very Impressive 16.5k (Kind of annoyed at the fact I cant paste in right into the post)

 

Second is the Warrior (I only have Spellbreaker unlocked)

 

The build is pretty normal power warrior  Strength, Discipline and Spellbreaker, Full Zerker with Scholar (Original I know) and running with Warriors Sprint instead of Crack shot in the traits(Both 10% damage buffs dont think there would be much difference when just using AA)

https://imgur.com/VETHKKM

A little sad 9.5k

 

And last but not least Engineer (Holo not Mech I don't have EoD)

 

Build is Power Holo (Normally use Sword/Pistol) Arms, Explosives, Holosmith, (Say it with me now) Full Zerker with Scholar runes

https://imgur.com/fbBtpiP

11.6k The Unloved middle child

 

And they all had delays between pressing attack and the first shot coming out, If anything Warrior Rifle needs the Love Engi Rifle is already in a good position. Stick a Mech on there Auto casting and you are gonna be close to 20k easy (Or not like I said no EoD) and yes I am ready for all the confused faces reacting to the post I am used to that at this point ❤️ 

[Doctor Hide.6345]

So what you are saying it is normalized then now between all three. I am ok with that even if I think it looks janky still compared to three round since damage was unchanged(for Pve). As for warrior rifle, wasn't it reworked this year? 

[Holly.8190]

Last year I think but with the recent change to Tactical Reload even the cheesy Bladesworn build died, it kind of exists in WvW for Zerkers but that's about it

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

No idea what you're talking about but please make a rifle spec for ranger, please.

[Infusion.7149]

The engineer build isn't correct and that is why you are getting inaccurate results. Any build running rifle on scrapper or mech will be using a sigil of air. There is nearly zero reason to run holo without photon forge usage, you are better off with mech due to passive mech damage or scrapper since you have a damage mod from swiftness, stability, and superspeed and added power from might.
The rifle mech (without a mech doing anything but using force signet) or scrapper should hit 16-17K easily.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Alcatraznc.3869]

Ok and now use rifle in any PvP content and tell me how good it is

[freakcoco.4287]

8 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Ok and now use rifle in any PvP content and tell me how good it is

Nice one.

Also there has no peak for rifles mecha.

I konw AA will make ppl angery, maybe they can rejuice rifle 2~5 and make make more active, but now rifles mecha is boring and underperforming on pve.

 

[Alcatraznc.3869]

21 minutes ago, freakcoco.4287 said:

Nice one.

Also there has no peak for rifles mecha.

I konw AA will make ppl angery, maybe they can rejuice rifle 2~5 and make make more active, but now rifles mecha is boring and underperforming on pve.

 

 

If you bring Pmech in PvP you are at best an annoyance to the red team but since the damage nerf Anet did long ago, only noobs get owned by rifle Pmech. 

 

But the rifle itself offered a good range option without being OP. The auto attack being good enough meant it was viable to use it as a filler in between CD. Rifle Scrapper and Holosmith was fun to run. But now ? I faced Deadeye who would just face tank the auto attack and retaliate with its superior rifle auto attack. 

[Doctor Hide.6345]

Just now, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

If you bring Pmech in PvP you are at best an annoyance to the red team but since the damage nerf Anet did long ago, only noobs get owned by rifle Pmech. 

 

But the rifle itself offered a good range option without being OP. The auto attack being good enough meant it was viable to use it as a filler in between CD. Rifle Scrapper and Holosmith was fun to run. But now ? I faced Deadeye who would just face tank the auto attack and retaliate with its superior rifle auto attack. 

 

Yeah, I am all for the PvP/WvW buffs for it so it can go back to where it was.(I don't know if the damage was already lower in PvP/WvW before this change, so I can't confidently say bring it back to PvE levels.)

[Alcatraznc.3869]

11 minutes ago, Doctor Hide.6345 said:

 

Yeah, I am all for the PvP/WvW buffs for it so it can go back to where it was.(I don't know if the damage was already lower in PvP/WvW before this change, so I can't confidently say bring it back to PvE levels.)

 

Rifle damage was rebalanced to deal the same amount of damage as the old AA but spread out between 3 hits within the same timeframe. So yeah the damage per bullet was already lower than the old AA for obvious reason.

 

But what Anet did this patch is remove 1 bullet without touching the coefficient. Someone did the calculation and it deals about as much damage as the AA from elixir kit. So not only the damage is trash but also it is worse than the elixir kit AA because rifle doesnt apply weakness and bleeding. So yeah, rifle now is arguably worse than rifle before the rework for PvP/WvW

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Alcatraznc.3869

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

Rifle damage was rebalanced to deal the same amount of damage as the old AA but spread out between 3 hits within the same timeframe. So yeah the damage per bullet was already lower than the old AA for obvious reason.

 

But what Anet did this patch is remove 1 bullet without touching the coefficient. Someone did the calculation and it deals about as much damage as the AA from elixir kit. So not only the damage is trash but also it is worse than the elixir kit AA because rifle doesnt apply weakness and bleeding. So yeah, rifle now is arguably worse than rifle before the rework for PvP/WvW

 

I think you over estimate how often Engineer players use rifle for anything other than mobility and CC. 

Most of killing was done via Grenade and Morter Kit. It was very easy to one shot low health players with either of these kits. 

[Caiden.9074]

I've been wanting buffs to warrior rifle for a long time. Hopefully they go the shotgun route to make it synergize with the melee nature of the class.

[Holly.8190]

5 minutes ago, Caiden.9074 said:

I've been wanting buffs to warrior rifle for a long time. Hopefully they go the shotgun route to make it synergize with the melee nature of the class.

But Engi rifle is a Shotgun or it was before a certain lead balance dev, Warrior was always more of an Assault Rifle

[Infusion.7149]

13 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

Rifle damage was rebalanced to deal the same amount of damage as the old AA but spread out between 3 hits within the same timeframe. So yeah the damage per bullet was already lower than the old AA for obvious reason.

 

But what Anet did this patch is remove 1 bullet without touching the coefficient. Someone did the calculation and it deals about as much damage as the AA from elixir kit. So not only the damage is trash but also it is worse than the elixir kit AA because rifle doesnt apply weakness and bleeding. So yeah, rifle now is arguably worse than rifle before the rework for PvP/WvW

 

The reason it does less than Elixir Gun is because most kits are not split to PVP/WVW in the Feb 2020 patch (except for grenade). The most likely response of Arenanet is not going to be to buff rifle. Don't kid yourself. They will nerf all kits. Be careful what you wish for.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Alcatraznc.3869]

6 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The reason it does less than Elixir Gun is because most kits are not split to PVP/WVW in the Feb 2020 patch (except for grenade). The most likely response of Arenanet is not going to be to buff rifle. Don't kid yourself. They will nerf all kits. Be careful what you wish for.

 

If they kill Engineer I'll just reroll into something else or stop playing the game. If Anet nerf kit that will be the last straw before people just stop playing Engineer

[fool moon.5308]

On 12/1/2022 at 12:34 AM, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 I faced Deadeye who would just face tank the auto attack and retaliate with its superior rifle auto attack. 

 

Why would a deadeye spam AA? Sounds made up just for this thread.😕

[Alcatraznc.3869]

4 minutes ago, foolmoon.2786 said:

 

Why would a deadeye spam AA? Sounds made up just for this thread.😕

 

Probably  because spamming 2 cost initiative

[fool moon.5308]

Just now, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

Probably  because spamming 2 cost initiative

 

If it was a BQOBK build and he was starved, I'd think the fight was in your favor anyway. If it was a M7 build....

[Piogre.2164]

On 12/1/2022 at 2:48 AM, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

But what Anet did this patch is remove 1 bullet without touching the coefficient. Someone did the calculation and it deals about as much damage as the AA from elixir kit. So not only the damage is trash but also it is worse than the elixir kit AA because rifle doesnt apply weakness and bleeding. So yeah, rifle now is arguably worse than rifle before the rework for PvP/WvW

 

It is literally worse than hip shot was in WVW, and I did digging and math to find out why.

The recent patch notes say:

Quote

Increased piercing projectile power coefficient from 0.3 to 0.4 in PvE only. Grenade power coefficient increased from 0.4 to 0.6 in PvE only

This creates the impression that in PVP/WVW, the coefficients remain at .3 and .4 respectively.  This is incorrect; the coefficients were never at that point in PVP/WVW.  If we look at the history of rifle burst, we see the earliest note from June is:

Quote

Hip Shot has been replaced with Rifle Burst. Rifle Burst delivers a quick burst of fire that pierces targets, followed by an explosive grenade. Total damage coefficient increased from 0.65 to 1.0 in PvE only

You'll note this also doesn't say what the previous coefficient for PVP/WVW was.  For that, we have to go into the Hip Shot history, where we find in February 2020:

Quote

(Competitive split) Reduced power coefficient from 0.65 to 0.44.

So before the change, Hip Shot had .44 -- this was, as you said, split out across three shots with the change to rifle burst, didn't receive the buff to total damage in WVW/PVP it got in PVE, and then they removed one of the bullets to make it worse damage than hip shot was.
------------------------------------------------
This all may look a bit speculative, so I took some measurements comparing tooltip damage with stats from basic gear:

Quote

Level 80 character, no skills or traits slotted
Only gear when unarmored is a stock level 80 white berserker rifle (no upgrades)
When armored, six stock level 80 berserker armor pieces (no upgrades)
Weapon Strength 601-734
Power 1144 without armor, 1396 with
Wiki says at level 80 tooltip damage calculation uses 2597 for armor

Tooltip damage = [number of hits] * round[(average weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient per hit) / (level-based Armor value)]
tooltipDamage = (1) * ((601+734)/2) * POWER * X / 2597
damage*2597*2/(power*(601+734))=X
damage*5194/power*1335=x
3.89063670412*damage/power=x

PVE measurements taken in a city, empty buff bar but for the "leader of the pact" movement speed
3.89063670412*161/1396=0.44870523593 PVE Rifle Burst Armored (Tooltip Damage 161)
3.89063670412*132/1144=0.4489196197 PVE Rifle Burst Unarmored (Tooltip Damage 132)
3.89063670412*215/1396=0.59920264425 PVE Rifle Grenade Armored (Tooltip Damage 215)
3.89063670412*176/1144=0.59855949294 PVE Rifle Grenade Unarmored (Tooltip Damage 176)

WVW measurements taken in a EotM, empty buff bar but for the "determined" from being in spawn
3.89063670412*59/1396=0.16443235354 WVW Rifle Burst Armored (Tooltip Damage 59)
3.89063670412*49/1144=0.16664440428 WVW Rifle Burst Unarmored (Tooltip Damage 49)
3.89063670412*79/1396=0.2201721344 WVW Rifle Grenade Armored (Tooltip Damage 79)
3.89063670412*65/1144=0.22105890364 WVW Rifle Grenade Unarmored (Tooltip Damage 65)

Coefficients in PVE are .45 and .6, as expected.

Coefficients in WVW are .16 and .22 -- a total of .38, worse than Hip Shot was at .44
--------------
TLDR: Remember how bad Hip Shot was in Competitive?  Rifle Burst is now worse than that.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Piogre.2164
typos