Suggestion.Work out the kinks before messing with elite specs and releasing it, please.

[Zaret.1450]

On 12/3/2022 at 7:20 PM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

HFB came out of the rework okay, if not a bit more flexible.

It's the Tome of Justice users, CFB and QFB, that just feel terrible to play now. Here's why (link). And this is not a balance issue. If anything they are a bit easier and can push slightly higher DPS. The problem is that the rework gutted their Tome 1 usage, which robs these two builds of their core concept, fun factor, and playability. Even without dipping into the other tomes for support, which was the over tuned part, Tome one is just a sad book of mostly unused skills now. The spirit of the tome is gone.
They also completely changed the playstyle and audience for the spec. FB, and guardian in particular, was a class that allowed casual and LI players to play support builds effectively. Now the spec relies on tracking too many resources that these players usually aren't aware of and can't even figure out why their abilities aren't working properly. Shared pages to nerf the over tuned versatility and constant extra support was fine, but adding instant cast, slower page regen, hidden skill CDs, hidden trait ICDs, tome debuffs, and variable page costs is just too much for the average player to handle. Most players chose the guardian and FB class, and not engineer and thief, for a reason, which was not tied to balance but complexity.

For tome 1 i guess you mean courage? if so i guess the condi fb is weaker now and they will probably change it in the future, if you mean skill 1 on every tome well, i think youre at least half wrong, i have played hfb and except the lowered access to stab everything else is more or less the same from my perspective, maybe some skills will need a touch in cd or number of pages but i think its fairly normal as they changed a core mecanic so it will need adjustment, we should agree that fb was too op with the other functioning and this is a fairly good change.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

49 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

For tome 1 i guess you mean courage? if so i guess the condi fb is weaker now and they will probably change it in the future, if you mean skill 1 on every tome well, i think youre at least half wrong, i have played hfb and except the lowered access to stab everything else is more or less the same from my perspective, maybe some skills will need a touch in cd or number of pages but i think its fairly normal as they changed a core mecanic so it will need adjustment, we should agree that fb was too op with the other functioning and this is a fairly good change.

No. Tome 1 is Tome of Justice (as in F1). Courage is F3. CFB and QFB have a real hard time using the skills in their DPS tome now, even without using the other tomes at all. A DPS spec that can't use it's most fun DPS skills/profession mechanic without losing DPS a serious problem conceptually. This is before we even get to the balance discussion. 

[Zaret.1450]

12 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

No. Tome 1 is Tome of Justice (as in F1). Courage is F3. CFB and QFB have a real hard time using the skills in their DPS tome now, even without using the other tomes at all. A DPS spec that can't use it's most fun DPS skills/profession mechanic without losing DPS a serious problem conceptually. This is before we even get to the balance discussion. 

is it the cd or the pages recharge? i guess either one could be balanced later, or maybe give justice a bit more dmg or burn stacks.

[Dadnir.5038]

21 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

is it the cd or the pages recharge? i guess either one could be balanced later, or maybe give justice a bit more dmg or burn stacks.

They just can't reliably do 25412 whenever they open their tome of justice now... It mess up with their 4-5 year old muscle memory.

Imagine how unfun it is to now be "forced" to do 542 instead of 25412. They can now longer witness the glory of the animation of the 1st page of the tome be drown into the already heavy mass of particle effects that surround PvE bosses!

[Zaret.1450]

11 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

They just can't reliably do 25412 whenever they open their tome of justice now... It mess up with their 4-5 year old muscle memory.

Imagine how unfun it is to now be "forced" to do 542 instead of 25412. They can now longer witness the glory of the animation of the 1st page of the tome be drown into the already heavy mass of particle effects that surround PvE bosses!

but becauae pages recharge to slowly? or you dont have enought pages? or the cd doesnt time right?

[Dadnir.5038]

24 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

but becauae pages recharge to slowly? or you dont have enought pages? or the cd doesnt time right?

Because renewing focus only recharge 5 pages instead of 7 and some skills have a higher cost in page.

If you look at it objectively, the whole thing is blown up out of proportion. There is no "brain" or "skill" or even "fun" issue. It's merely a minor change in their rotation while in tome of justice. It doesn't even impact negatively their damage output.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

2 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

is it the cd or the pages recharge? i guess either one could be balanced later, or maybe give justice a bit more dmg or burn stacks.

The longer CD costs seem fair. It's mostly the page regeneration rate and the page costs which restrict skill use too heavily. It's not about balance. The new firebrand actually does more damage, it's about fun factor, playability, and the entire concept of tomes. 

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

They just can't reliably do 25412 whenever they open their tome of justice now... It mess up with their 4-5 year old muscle memory.

Imagine how unfun it is to now be "forced" to do 542 instead of 25412. They can now longer witness the glory of the animation of the 1st page of the tome be drown into the already heavy mass of particle effects that surround PvE bosses!

It's not even that. The new rotation is: open tome, use skill #5, closed tome. Not enough pages to upkeep anything more after the first burst. Boring, repetitive, uninspiring, unrewarding. 

EDIT: Oh I forgot about the times when you open up the tome, and then close it immediately without using any skills just for a trait to trigger. Fun times. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

It's not even that. The new rotation is: open tome, use skill #5, closed tome. Not enough pages to upkeep anything more after the first burst. Boring, repetitive, uninspiring, unrewarding. 

EDIT: Oh I forgot about the times when you open up the tome, and then close it immediately without using any skills just for a trait to trigger. Fun times. 

Look, I at least make a bit of research before claiming something.

Here the updated rotation for the 29th november patch:

 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Look, I at least make a bit of research before claiming something.

Here the updated rotation for the 29th november patch:

 

Yes, and here is the background information for that video, how it degrades into a 1 tome skill rotation, and the creator's own dissatisfaction with how terrible it plays. 

 

[Serephen.3420]

On 12/7/2022 at 5:34 AM, Hashberry.4510 said:

This is the absurd part here. These complex builds are intrinsically more rewarding and fun to play, and that does not change just cause you ain’t getting your sacred spot at the top of the meter. This issue arises because you folks also want to be first choice when picking for pug metas. Talk about entitlement. Form your own group.

You are sounding more and more elitist with every post you make. And your projection is not helping your case either.

[Kodama.6453]

14 minutes ago, Serephen.3420 said:

You are sounding more and more elitist with every post you make. And your projection is not helping your case either.

Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but what they said sounds like the polar opposite of elitism to me.

They basically say that LI builds deserve to be the top performers in PUG groups and that the more complex builds are still more rewarding if played properly, so there is still incentive to use these and if you want people to just use these higher complex builds, then just make your own squad with experienced people instead of expecting unexperienced people to play these builds if there is an easier alternative for them.

[Hashberry.4510]

Thanks Kodama, well said. I don’t really care about meter placement though.

[ThunderX.6591]

On 12/3/2022 at 6:17 PM, zaswer.5246 said:

if it is 33k then something is bugged, because i still see 4 mecas or more in scuads, also this mecanic is needed, half the mecanist dmg is the mec, so you can do mecanics and still heal, buff and upkeep dps while any other class has to completely stop doing things in order to do mecanics.

 

Noone ever think that people chooce mostly mecha as a class cause they like THE ROBOT?

My main at the start of the game was a ranger cause i liked the pet, not for the "power or not" of the class, simple for liking the pet running around.

But no, all the choices in this game need to be based around power, so if people choose mecha is because the class is OP........ so mecha get hitted with nerf even though there was no need for them after July patch.....

[ThunderX.6591]

On 12/8/2022 at 1:47 PM, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

The longer CD costs seem fair. It's mostly the page regeneration rate and the page costs which restrict skill use too heavily. It's not about balance. The new firebrand actually does more damage, it's about fun factor, playability, and the entire concept of tomes. 

It's not even that. The new rotation is: open tome, use skill #5, closed tome. Not enough pages to upkeep anything more after the first burst. Boring, repetitive, uninspiring, unrewarding. 

EDIT: Oh I forgot about the times when you open up the tome, and then close it immediately without using any skills just for a trait to trigger. Fun times. 

Care to simple share skills, weapons and stats-traits of this "build" who do more dps then before?

My build is literally under 30k dps now (instead of the original 32k) so i want to know what are you using to check what i do wrong with mine.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, ThunderX.6591 said:

Care to simple share skills, weapons and stats-traits of this "build" who do more dps then before?

My build is literally under 30k dps now (instead of the original 32k) so i want to know what are you using to check what i do wrong with mine.

Build is at the end of the video.

EDIT: Not my video. I don't do benchmarks. I play celebrand by what feels right and what works in practice for a hybrid quickbrand/healer.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Gaiawolf.8261