Restore Forced Engagement range to 1200

[Buran.3796]

   CMC said that wants to put in use some Revenant builds which were meta in PvP in the past, specifically condi Herald.

   The thing  is that isn't gonna work: aside from the changes in Resistance which was what made it tanky, the build lacked mobility, so the reason it worked was the self sustain + AoE cc and condi damage. As has been discused, the latest changes won't make it back: lacks the sustain to face the ranged damage from EoD, but also the mobility of the new specs. But the thing is: even if worked, it would only do through being an annoying tanky bruiser, with lots of cc. Which means that the moment it becames popular, people will want it removed because is unfun to play against. So buffing cHerald is just wasting time chasing our own tail...  Is meaningless: the moment it works is the moment you have to start to think in deleting it again.

   Instead, buff Renegade: has mobility and damage, and the sustain was already tamed before EoD. But the nerfs in Forced Engagement or Planar Protection just pre-EoD release sinked a build which was working well despite not being meta. So be realist: pHerld won't work outside conformed teams due no stability, plus crapy condi cleanses; core is meh and cHerald is doomed by nature. Vindi is already replacing Herald due better the cleanses and teamplay potential. Wan't a different Rev spec working at player vs player? Buff Renegade.

   I'm talking mostly about FE for WvW.

[Shao.7236]

FE was 1200 because who ever designed it knew that a slow projectile at short range would feel horrible, but a fast one would be unfun.

It's not so much that they wanted it to reach far but rather make the thing usable. Afaik most projectiles in the game at least reach for 900, while most leaps are 600.

Being 1200 was meant to provide extra room to avoid jankiness.

[Telgum.6071]

600 or 1200, it doesn't matter if you will cancel it while moving.

[Buran.3796]

4 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

600 or 1200, it doesn't matter if you will cancel it while moving.

  It does matter because lots of cc from other players have 1200 range, so forces Renebow to eat them/waste resources in avoiding damage before reaching 600.  And 600 is already a place in which you usually don't want to be with your short bow, because puts you to one gap closer away of being flooded by mele attacks...

[Yasai.3549]

20 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

FE was 1200 because who ever designed it knew that a slow projectile at short range would feel horrible, but a fast one would be unfun.

It's not so much that they wanted it to reach far but rather make the thing usable. Afaik most projectiles in the game at least reach for 900, while most leaps are 600.

Being 1200 was meant to provide extra room to avoid jankiness.

At this point, I rather they nerf FE to 600, but in exchange make it a Stunbreak and AoE. 
You stunbreak and taunt up to 5 people around you by launching FE at them. 

[Za Shaloc.3908]

I'd he happy with 900. I'm pretty tolerant to a lot of nerfs but the range limit on it does admittedly feel really bad. I think it functioned just fine as a single target taunt, but then they omegabuffed it through the stratosphere, and now it feels worse than it did before the buffs.

On 12/10/2022 at 1:24 AM, Yasai.3549 said:

At this point, I rather they nerf FE to 600, but in exchange make it a Stunbreak and AoE. 
You stunbreak and taunt up to 5 people around you by launching FE at them. 

CC on stunbreak skills are IMO very unhealthy for the game. I would prefer FE never gets a stunbreak added. I think Jalis having a higher cost investment on its stunbreak is fine considering how strong the road is, at least for WvW.  The cast time does feel a bit awkward but we have a trait to help alleviate that.

[Yasai.3549]

4 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

The cast time does feel a bit awkward but we have a trait to help alleviate that.

Hmm I don't think Versed in Stone alleviates the issue of RotGD. 
Yes it does trigger when you are hit below a certain health threshold, but that's not really alleviating the issue of an unreliable Stunbreak.

Stunbreaks, at least in the grand scheme of Gw2's combat design, is meant more as a prevention rather than a cure, allowing to player to break out of a CC effect to save themselves from a bad situation. Versed in Stone's auto trigger not only had a minute cooldown but also only triggers when you are at 50% HP which could be too little too late in harsher combat encounters like Raids or endgame Meta bosses where the damage reduction cannot save you, whereas an earlier Stunbreak could save them. 

I get that you're thinking about PvP balance when you think that a Stunbreak that Taunts is too powerful but then again, with how terrible Revenant Elites are to manually cast, RotGD is very rarely even cast in the first place, so the power balance you are touting doesn't even exist. To be perfectly serious, this seems to be more of an issue of some Legend Elites being way too impractical to cast no matter what game mode they are in.

But I digress, the topic here is regarding FE as an engagement tool, so speaking of it as an engagement tool, I personally think if it's just an AoE taunt, it would have far better usage rather than a slow projectile. It's not as if Revenants do not have tools to get onto their targets afterall. 

[Angesombre.4630]

If we look at other classes: thief 2 shoots at 1200 with a good speed, dragon hunter a grap 1200, necro 1200 on 5 targets, engineer with a kit, rodeur with a pet I think and the best one the focus envoute with a range of 900 and a radius of 600 I think where you don't need to see the target. 
So putting it back as before would not be a luxury for the range knowing that the radius has been decreased and you can do it only in front of you.

[Shao.7236]

On 12/11/2022 at 10:12 AM, Yasai.3549 said:

Hmm I don't think Versed in Stone alleviates the issue of RotGD. 
Yes it does trigger when you are hit below a certain health threshold, but that's not really alleviating the issue of an unreliable Stunbreak.

Stunbreaks, at least in the grand scheme of Gw2's combat design, is meant more as a prevention rather than a cure, allowing to player to break out of a CC effect to save themselves from a bad situation. Versed in Stone's auto trigger not only had a minute cooldown but also only triggers when you are at 50% HP which could be too little too late in harsher combat encounters like Raids or endgame Meta bosses where the damage reduction cannot save you, whereas an earlier Stunbreak could save them. 

I get that you're thinking about PvP balance when you think that a Stunbreak that Taunts is too powerful but then again, with how terrible Revenant Elites are to manually cast, RotGD is very rarely even cast in the first place, so the power balance you are touting doesn't even exist. To be perfectly serious, this seems to be more of an issue of some Legend Elites being way too impractical to cast no matter what game mode they are in.

But I digress, the topic here is regarding FE as an engagement tool, so speaking of it as an engagement tool, I personally think if it's just an AoE taunt, it would have far better usage rather than a slow projectile. It's not as if Revenants do not have tools to get onto their targets afterall. 

RotGD is most useful in between legend swaps as a energy throw away before you change or in anticipation against conditions that can be easily be stacked then cleared at once.

There is plenty stability/quickness to alleviate it's long cast too.

Using it reactively against power without any other buffs is not as practical Vs plain IR Weakness, considering you can follow that with F2 RotGD then another big RotGD safely in the road.

Usually RotGD if used by itself should be for teamfights. The difference it can make is really noticeable, even if not as a support it's pretty big.

As a Stunbreak it works if you have the right traits, otherwise it's up to you for having the reaction to use IR / swap legends at the right time. SongOTM + Spirit Boon easily makes the user extra tanky for 5 seconds, against multiple targets like a Mesmer you often end up with over 4k barrier which is coated with Weakness and you can extend the tankiness with either IR Stab/weakness for power or another RotGD for conditions yet again. SongOTM always pays off with Quickness for RotGD if you precast into Shiro or use Brutality weapon swap.

They really should not touch the skill, the best buff I can think of is making it an additive modifier again or make the cast a 1 second maximum.

 

[Yasai.3549]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

RotGD is most useful in between legend swaps as a energy throw away before you change or in anticipation against conditions that can be easily be stacked then cleared at once.

This is only possible if you are using Versed in Stone, it doesn't naturally reduce Conditions which I think should be made baseline 😛 

I don't know if many will agree but I think if the skill should at least give itself Stability so that if you do cast it as a personal Stunbreak, you are prevented from being chain CC'd while already blowing your Energy. How I would like the skill to work will be something along the lines of : RotGD button pressed/Energy cost applied > Character wakeup > finish casting the skill without being interrupted. 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Yasai.3549

[Shao.7236]

38 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

This is only possible if you are using Versed in Stone, it doesn't naturally reduce Conditions which I think should be made baseline 😛 

I don't know if many will agree but I think if the skill should at least give itself Stability so that if you do cast it as a personal Stunbreak, you are prevented from being chain CC'd while already blowing your Energy. How I would like the skill to work will be something along the lines of : RotGD button pressed/Energy cost applied > Character wakeup > finish casting the skill without being interrupted. 

 

I used to think the same, but there's hardly anything I can think of to replace the trait + the fact that compared to power, condition damage reduction is waaaay more noticeable since there's no crits and it's ramp up.

I find it hard to suggest anything for RotGD because IR is a good skill.

[Yasai.3549]

1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

I find it hard to suggest anything for RotGD because IR is a good skill.

From a general gameplay perspective, if you are put in a position where you need to cast RotGD to self stunbreak, IR probably didn't help or was not up. 

Never mind Competitive encounters, alot of newer PvE expansions have enemies doing back to back CC and that's just so darn annoying for Revenant who can no longer Stunbreak through Legend Swapping. Talking bout those annoying Jade Constructs/Tengu that pull you in and if you can't wake up from that in time, you get punted. 

PS: personally I want to see any sort of Legend specific trait reworked. Devastation took that step in the correct direction by divorcing it entirely from Shiro, I'm hoping the rest of the Traitlines can do the same. 

Corruption still has strong ties to Mallyx, Salvation still has very strong ties to Ventari, Retribution is mostly divorced from Jalis but that one trait left over. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Yasai.3549