What is 'low-intensity' play?

[Sundoor.5630]

Not a veteran yet, can someone educate me?

 

While I lack the jaded clarity of veteran players, I found so far that all classes (those that I tried, Mechanist, Holosmith, Tempest, core Thief, Deadeye) are low-intensity in PVE and all of them are high-intensity in PVP.

In PVE I found everything is just muscle memory. While there are significant differences in the learning curves (tempest vs mechanist comes to mind), once learned it's just autopilot. Where is the high intensity in that? Holosmith more intensive than Mechanist? How? I haven't found any difference. Are there differences in the number of things to do in order to be completely balls-to-the-wall 100.00% efficient maxed out damage dealing so that the boss dies a whole tenth of a second faster?

 

Is there a thing as 'low-intensity' in PVP? Can you 'AFK-win'? Maybe I don't have the years yet but I havent seen that happen. Whichever team has an AFK loses. Do you mean it is just standing around spamming skills randomly? Well go ahead, try it. Maybe it works in wood division, but not S1+ and anything below that is just people learning the game.

 

Does auto-attack strength measure the performance of a class? Can any class 'AFK' out-damage another that is playing attentively?

 

I need answers :(

 

[Strixxe.2019]

In a few words low intensity is when you dont need to do complex rotations to do decent dmg. For example rifle mechanist. These builds and playstyles are great for those who have movement impairement or other health problems  or just want to chill and still experience all content.  More or less all classes have these builds.  Mukluk did great videos about them. For example 

 

[Alcatraznc.3869]

Low Intensity build refer to build that doesnt requires you to press a lot of keys while still being somewhat effective at your role (often DPS). These build are mainly focused for PvE content so you'll never see them in PvP or WvW.

 

So yeah you can say every class can play a LI build which is technically true, but the performance of these build is very often just underwhelming. There are a lot of LI build available but the one that had an acceptable performances, or at least enough that people in group felt they contributed was Rifle Pmech.

 

On the other hand the "high intensity" are on the opposite side of the spectrum. They are build requiring a lot of keys to be played properly. People refer them as piano build and as you can expect, they deal more damage than low intensity build. 

 

And no there are no AFK build like people claim. People, especially engineer hater love to throw the AFk word with mech but I havent seen a single player press the auto attack, leave the game and then it kills the boss while doing mechanic when there are some.  That is just hyperbole they use because it fits their narrative 

[Sundoor.5630]

Thanks for the answers, but honestly, the difference seems to be overblown. Is there a _real_ difference between pressing 10 buttons while having breakfast and pressing 5 while having breakfast?

Are people jealous because their class has to press 10 buttons in order not to be a slacker during raid/fractal etc rather than 5 buttons? FYI, any "2 button play" is called slacking for any class

Did anyone other than actually impaired people choose mechanist because it requires fewer buttons to be pressed? I certainly didn't.

Just trying to find the rationale why it has to be put behind everyone else stat-wise.

 

Edit: an analogy: this whole argument seems like which one is the more intense riff, Smoke on the Water or Whole Lotta Love. Sure on paper Whole Lotta Love is more intense, but does that mean that Smoke on the Water deserves less fans? Also as far as actual effort goes, they are both pretty simple. And for the record there is no Through The Fire And Flames in GW2, just riffs between the former two in complexity.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Sundoor.5630

[Noah Salazar.5430]

i like more keys, cuz it brings me more fun

i picked engineer over elemetalist, cuz engineer have medium hp and medium armor, also big duration of superspeed as scrapper, and swiffnes, witch was helpfull when i was leveling (before i unlocked mounts)

Edited December 15, 2022 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Dadnir.5038]

42 minutes ago, Sundoor.5630 said:

Just trying to find the rationale why it has to be put behind everyone else stat-wise.

People want their "efforts" to be rewarded and they don't think that doing those "efforts" is a reward itself. That's basically why they rant about "low intensity" builds.

Ultimately this philosophy of rewarding "efforts" can only lead to a discrimination of the part of the playerbase that simply do not have the ability to go through those "efforts". And it's probably the reason why the devs do not consider the concept of "efforts" as a major point of balance.

 

[Nash.2681]

59 minutes ago, Sundoor.5630 said:

Thanks for the answers, but honestly, the difference seems to be overblown. Is there a _real_ difference between pressing 10 buttons while having breakfast and pressing 5 while having breakfast?

Are people jealous because their class has to press 10 buttons in order not to be a slacker during raid/fractal etc rather than 5 buttons? FYI, any "2 button play" is called slacking for any class

Did anyone other than actually impaired people choose mechanist because it requires fewer buttons to be pressed? I certainly didn't.

Just trying to find the rationale why it has to be put behind everyone else stat-wise.

 

Edit: an analogy: this whole argument seems like which one is the more intense riff, Smoke on the Water or Whole Lotta Love. Sure on paper Whole Lotta Love is more intense, but does that mean that Smoke on the Water deserves less fans? Also as far as actual effort goes, they are both pretty simple. And for the record there is no Through The Fire And Flames in GW2, just riffs between the former two in complexity.

Well, though LI builds are often defined by "max. X button presses per minute", usual some more stuff is factored in when talking about LI builds.

For example: condi scourge is often refered to as a LI build, while in fact you're pressing A LOT buttons if you want to play it efficiently. But since there's no real rotation to follow, just some sort of priority list yielding you good results, it's often considered "LI". On the other hand, there are builds that might require less buttons pressed than said condi scourge, but demand a strict rotation that will let your dps drop by a lot if you make a mistake. And then there are builds that combine both, lots of buttons and a strict rotation and thus often lead to subpar results.

The othe extreme are builds like PMech that work even with almost no player input thanks to a pet and autocast options (yes, it got nerfed recently, but it's still more than sufficient to clear any content while having breakfast in the meantime).

Contrary to what @Dadnir.5038 wrote, most people not playing LI builds do not have issues with the existance of LI builds or people playing them per se, especially when it comes to handicaped players.

What irks some is that LI builds often outperform difficult to execute high intensity builds once you don't play those perfectly. That creates a feel of punishment for actually trying to improve as a player.

[Stalima.5490]

low intensity at this point is literally just simple builds that randomly invade the forums and then recieve unjustified nerfs for no apparant reason and without actually compensating the immense number of builds lost by doing so, making the core component of the low intensity build almost useless in all builds and not just the one particular build.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Stalima.5490

[Gendalfs.7521]

Those ''wanabe'' pianists just hate everyone and everything that cannot perform like Franz Liszt.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Nash.2681 said:

Contrary to what @Dadnir.5038 wrote, most people not playing LI builds do not have issues with the existance of LI builds or people playing them per se, especially when it comes to handicaped players.

What irks some is that LI builds often outperform difficult to execute high intensity builds once you don't play those perfectly. That creates a feel of punishment for actually trying to improve as a player.

That's not what I wrote, that's how you understood what I wrote based on your own opinion.

There is a large vocal community that have beef against LI builds. They do think that "it's to rewarding for how much effort you put in". There has been literally hundred of threads filled with this kind of opinion over many years. You're probably the first ever saying that what irks you when you play a high intensity build is your failure to meet the same level of reliability than the low intensity builds meet. And even if that's what people thought, I do think it's pretty shameful to shower in hate those LI build for this kind of reason.

[Infusion.7149]

If you don't think there is low intensity builds for PVP you haven't been playing long.

1. My former guild leader climbed the PVP ladder to rank 1 playing turret core engi in core days

2. all the bots playing minion necro before the minion nerfs

3. sage amulet type scourges before the nerf when they could range and spam loads of condis on point

4. any guardian spamming symbols on the point to heal and DPS at the same time

5. most ranger pet builds that kite while the pet eats you alive

6. mirage builds when they had two dodges and the old infinite horizon

7. most bunker shout spellbreaker builds because they aren't focused on doing DPS they can kite on point and CC people off it

8. most condi daredevil builds (especially with pistol mainhand against melee builds without reflects) back in the day that just spammed evades to do DPS and not take damage half the time

There's also a large difference between a ranged "low intensity build" compared to a melee one which has to have positional awareness (see bladesworn especially).

[Nash.2681]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

That's not what I wrote, that's how you understood what I wrote based on your own opinion.

There is a large vocal community that have beef against LI builds. They do think that "it's to rewarding for how much effort you put in". There has been literally hundred of threads filled with this kind of opinion over many years. You're probably the first ever saying that what irks you when you play a high intensity build is your failure to meet the same level of reliability than the low intensity builds meet. And even if that's what people thought, I do think it's pretty shameful to shower in hate those LI build for this kind of reason.

You wrote "People want their "efforts" to be rewarded and they don't think that doing those "efforts" is a reward itself. That's basically why they rant about "low intensity" builds. " How else is this to be understood than claiming that people that don't play LI builds hate on LI builds per se?

And I'm very well aware of those numerous threads about that topic, but all I read there was some LI players (ironicly mainly PMech players) desperatly justifying their builds being almost on the same level then very well to almost perfectly executed HI builds while neglecting all arguments showing that the gap is (or was) too low or for some builds even non-existant. That mindset is what got (imo very valid) criticism, not the idea of LI builds themselves.

And imo it tells a lot flagging the thought of "more effort should be more rewarding" as "shamefull thinking"....

[Gendalfs.7521]

I understand you, but what  Mechanist have to bring UP lets say DPS? Can it use tools? What tools Mech has? I dont mind AA being neft, bet then give us something to fill lack of AA Rifle. Give weapon swap etc

[Dithnir.4593]

I like the idea that there are viable pve LI builds, but not as good as builds with a full rotation. It's simply more inclusive. My dad has one good hand, the other cannot navigate the keys particularly well, so a build that lets him do around 15-20k dps for pressing a couple of buttons is actually a real boon to him in open world, it makes him feel like he's not holding me and his grand daughter back when we play together.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 12/16/2022 at 3:56 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

That's not what I wrote, that's how you understood what I wrote based on your own opinion.

There is a large vocal community that have beef against LI builds. They do think that "it's to rewarding for how much effort you put in". There has been literally hundred of threads filled with this kind of opinion over many years. You're probably the first ever saying that what irks you when you play a high intensity build is your failure to meet the same level of reliability than the low intensity builds meet. And even if that's what people thought, I do think it's pretty shameful to shower in hate those LI build for this kind of reason.

Funny, it's pretty much always come up in discussions on riflemech I was seeing in its heyday. The problem was that if you have one build that can do 38k with a simple ranged rotation, and another build that can theoretically do 40k (which at least used to be the 'nerf anything that exceeds this' cap) but has a complex and easily disrupted melee rotation, the former is going to knock the latter out. Why? Reliability. You know the former is going to get pretty close to its theoretical DPS against the boss every time. While bringing the more complex profession that only does 2k more in ideal conditions, and might do substantially less in realistic conditions, is, at best, a gamble where you only get a small bonus if you win but can lose a lot if you don't, and you need to invest a lot of time into practice even to make that gamble which the easy build just doesn't need.

Combine riflemech's ability to bring utilities to conveniently handle mechanics, and you get situations where you'd see squads of 70% mechanists. That sort of dominance allowed to hold for too long could lead to some groups starting to exclude people who wanted to play anything else for DPS.

You might be seeing the argument less outside of periods where riflemech was doing 38k because now the potential reward for learning more complex builds is there. An LI build having enough DPS to clear encounters is a good thing, as long as the more complex builds at least offer the realistic possibility of getting better performance.

[coro.3176]

I see the spectrum more like:

• HI - Huge number of skills, kits/attunements/weapons that need to be used with precise timing in order to capitalize on combo fields or buff windows. Rotation is complex, having a deep decision flowchart to achieve maximum output with some penalty for choosing incorrectly.
• MI - Average build. You'll do okay if you press all the buttons, but no huge dps loss for getting the rotation wrong.
• LI - Mostly just spamming the same skills over and over. Rotation is only a few buttons that you just repeat.
• NI - Autoattack and walk away. Make a sandwich.

And the corresponding DPS output should be:

• HI - 100% of max possible dps in the game
• MI - 85%
• LI - 75%
• NI - 30%

Why such a penalty to NI? At the end of the day, an MMO is a game where you press buttons to make your character do things. If you're not doing that, you're not really playing. Playing should be rewarded more than not playing. That's all.

[ZolracAtrox.2908]

Let's be interactive

Try Power Mech and try Condi Core Engi and try to have similar DPS to the video guide

[Gendalfs.7521]

This game could be MacOs, Win or Linux. If community force all be Linux, Gl Hf.

[Cyninja.2954]

In general, Low Intensity builds will forgo complexity for performance in varying degree.

 

Special thing to note, as of right now, LI builds can clear pretty much any content in this game with ease (even HT CM, though that one will be tough, not due to rotation or performance reasons)  and will most often outperform "regular" builds in less skilled player hands (and even adept players who haven't mastered their class to maximum benchmark).

 

Low Intensity builds vary in complexity too: while some require near no input, usually resulting in the lowest output or with other drawbacks (melee range, no utility, etc), other LI might end up having a minor rotation or priority system which requires some class awareness.

 

Low Intensity builds can be variations on regular builds, with replacing more complex interactions for less complex ones (replacing grenades for a turret on engies for example is a very common one), or they are made from scratch. Either approach works and is common.

 

Power mechanist (and mech in general), which saw a mention here, was severely outperforming any other build in the game by comparison of complexity and utility (and actual transition of theoretical output to actual output, aka golem versus real fight). This resulted in a drastic, and to this day present, over-representation of the class in all areas of the game pve wise. High end players were forced to take the class because it was the highest performer, mediocre players chose the class because it pushed their performance far above what they could achieve on any other class and poor players had a go-to class which was bringing high performance with near no requirement in regards to input or class understanding. This has since been remedied with adjustments, currently pmech will still result in higher performance than any other class in a players who is clueless, it will result in comparable output in a decent players hands who is not proficient with other classes and it has fallen out of most high end performance setups (pmech, not support mech).

 

In general the ideal situation is one where all types of builds find a space and place with varying degree of output. Both to encourage actual engagement with this games combat system while offering easier to use alternatives for players who do not want to "piano rotation" (and this term has been vastly overused by part of this forums base, most often referring to anything which requires more than 10 actions per minute as "piano"). The reason for this is that the game and its combat and pve content break apart very fast at high power levels, unlike other MMORPGs which just multiply the pve contents output with each next batch of power creep they introduce (while simultaneously not caring about old content becoming irrelevant).

Edited January 5, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Gendalfs.7521]

I really hope that these current Mech changes are temporary while they come up with more sense adjustments. Like adjusting numbers, giving non auto skills more dmg, maybe even changing how some skills works.

For now its like balancing Ferrari and WV Golf by removing one wheel from Ferrari.

 

[shion.2084]

LI - you minimize player input and thought to play.