Holidays achieves are very unfriendly when it comes to accessibility

[Trollocks.5084]

Forcing jumping puzzles and poorly-designed and implemented reflex games for a holiday event is just not good, especially for anyone with any kind of relevant disability. And it's not fun to not be allowed to earn the yearly achievement, simply because someone isn't good at those things.

 

I'm all for there being JP and Bell Choir achievements for people that want to do them. But please, stop making them essential for the yearly special achievement.

[Antycypator.9874]

Doesn't Wintersday's JP have an easy mode, so literally everyone with working spacebar can do it?

 

And, you know, achievements are optional, it's just a number.

[Debesyla.7102]

You can skip the JP and do the race instead. For "under 3 minutes" you don't need a roller beetle, simple raptor is enough.

[Khisanth.2948]

34 minutes ago, Antycypator.9874 said:

Doesn't Wintersday's JP have an easy mode, so literally everyone with working spacebar can do it?

 

And, you know, achievements are optional, it's just a number.

 It has easier and more difficult paths but the easiest path still has some tricky jumps. The easier path just removes the melting snowflakes and crumbling  candy cane.

There is also a pair of ugly shoes in addition to the number.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Khisanth.2948

[Ashen.2907]

3 hours ago, Trollocks.5084 said:

Forcing jumping puzzles and poorly-designed and implemented reflex games for a holiday event is just not good, especially for anyone with any kind of relevant disability. And it's not fun to not be allowed to earn the yearly achievement, simply because someone isn't good at those things.

 

I'm all for there being JP and Bell Choir achievements for people that want to do them. But please, stop making them essential for the yearly special achievement.

What is acceptible as a requirement for the yearly achievement?

[Randulf.7614]

If it helps, you don’t need to be good at or even complete choir bell. Just get notes right. That time will very depending on the individual of course. The jp, as stated can be ignored since 7/8 annual achievements are required.

Hope that helps!

[Silent.6137]

As a few had suggested, skip the JP unless you absolutely must have the achievements from those. For the Bell Choir, choose the Lower Part, which is the easiest. Place your cursor between the 4th and 5th cone (4th and 6th skills) so easier to know if the notes will be on the left or the right.

Don't try to follow the music if you have problems with the progression. Just pick and choose which keys to press next. It'll take a little bit longer but you'll get the achievements eventually.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Silent.6137

[mythical.6315]

22 hours ago, Trollocks.5084 said:

Forcing jumping puzzles and poorly-designed and implemented reflex games for a holiday event is just not good, especially for anyone with any kind of relevant disability. And it's not fun to not be allowed to earn the yearly achievement, simply because someone isn't good at those things.

I'm all for there being JP and Bell Choir achievements for people that want to do them. But please, stop making them essential for the yearly special achievement.

The game would be fairly dull if you try to create content that accommodates every conceivable disability. 

There are options available so there is a degree in freedom of choice. Choir bell progression can still be made by mashing keys. It’ll be slow but you can still progress. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Cernow.3974]

Whilst I strongly feel that these sort of community events should cater for the widest possible range of players, it is also fair to say you can't cater for everyone given the nature of GW2's gameplay and content. However, jumping puzzles are absolutely in a category of their own and overall festival achievements should never be locked behind compulsory JP completion. Ever.

If you suffer from accessibility issues most aspects of GW2's festival content are still do-able, even the choir bell ringing with a bit of patience. But jumping puzzles, nope. If you can't do them there's no workarounds (like portals and rewinders) in these instanced, timer-based JPs like Winter Wonderland and Mad King's Tower.

Why is the supposed 'easy' Quaggan route in Winter Wonderland still on a pretty strict timer? If you take a fairly steady / methodical approach you'll run out of time. And why does the 'easy' route still end up at the same difficult final section that the other routes converge on?  It's far from easy when you still face the same challenges as the more expert jumpers in the final sections AND have to contend with the inevitable visual crowding that comes with converging all three routes (why this design?). And if you fail in the final section, there's no checkpoint, you're right back to the start. Hardly much fun. Why not give easy mode players a checkpoint at the final campfire, and just reduce rewards for using it (if you absolutely MUST punish players)?

I get that a lot of players love JPs and they should absolutely be rewarded for doing them. But please do not punish those players who either can't do them or get stressed out by them. This represents a lack of consideration. Players who can't do JPs don't want or expect top rewards for using an easy-mode route or checkpoints, they just don't want to be locked out of overall seasonal achievements because of compulsory jumping puzzles. Rethink this please.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Fortunately, the Wintersday Jumping Puzzle is not required for the 'overall seasonal achievement'. 

[Cernow.3974]

12 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Fortunately, the Wintersday Jumping Puzzle is not required for the 'overall seasonal achievement'. 

 

Winter's Presence achievement (and Winter's Presence Festival Collection for the shoulder skin) requires Wintersday Gauntlet achievement, which needs 3 completions of the jumping puzzle. I guess you could argue that this isn't the main seasonal achievement, which would be the annual Wintersday Traditions achievement which can be completed by completing 7 of the possible 8 objectives. But Winter's Presence is still an important part of the overall festival achievements which some players will be locked out of because of the JP.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Would not need to argue that Winter's Presence is not the 'overall seasonal achievement'. 

[Cernow.3974]

Semantics. What's your problem with people asking for jumping puzzles to not be a compulsory part of these festival collections like Winters Presence? No-one is asking for the removal of JPs or the rewards for completing them. Just don't force players into content they either can't or don't want to complete by mixing them into these overall collections. Jumping puzzles can have their own unique reward if those in need of validation insist on them, just don't mix them in with collective achievements unless there's plenty of other optional routes to completion. Same could be said of the PvP-related achievements too as there's lots of players who struggle with that form of content for one reason and another. Options and choice, that's all it needs.  

[Luthan.5236]

Winters Presence is a grindy stuff (at least for new players or players that do not usually farm a lot of money) - because of some of the components. And it is optional. I think Halloween had one where the clocktower was required. That then got changed. (They added a chest.) But iirc the reward was only  a mini - for that additional achievement chain. The Winter's Presence is something meant to be unique and expensive - requiring effort (including the jumping puzzle).

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

5 hours ago, Cernow.3974 said:

Semantics. What's your problem with people asking for jumping puzzles to not be a compulsory part of these festival collections like Winters Presence? No-one is asking for the removal of JPs or the rewards for completing them. Just don't force players into content they either can't or don't want to complete by mixing them into these overall collections. Jumping puzzles can have their own unique reward if those in need of validation insist on them, just don't mix them in with collective achievements unless there's plenty of other optional routes to completion. Same could be said of the PvP-related achievements too as there's lots of players who struggle with that form of content for one reason and another. Options and choice, that's all it needs.  

Since this thread is about the yearly Festival achievement, and that does not require the Jumping Puzzle, you are welcome to create your own thread about Winter's Presence, or anything that requires content you don't approve of.

Good luck.

[Cernow.3974]

3 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said:

Winters Presence is a grindy stuff (at least for new players or players that do not usually farm a lot of money) - because of some of the components. And it is optional. I think Halloween had one where the clocktower was required. That then got changed. (They added a chest.) But iirc the reward was only  a mini - for that additional achievement chain. The Winter's Presence is something meant to be unique and expensive - requiring effort (including the jumping puzzle).

 

Yeah that's a fair point. Having managed to get to 1/3 in the jumping puzzle after a lot of failures, I thought I'd best look more closely at the Mystic Forge costs before deciding if to keep putting myself through the jump torment.  Given the disparity between what I have in the bank and what I'd need to farm or buy, it seems the jumping puzzle is the least of my worries.

 

12 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Since this thread is about the yearly Festival achievement, and that does not require the Jumping Puzzle, you are welcome to create your own thread about Winter's Presence, or anything that requires content you don't approve of.

Good luck.

 

It's not about approval, just a better choice of options. But Luthan's point above is a good one, Winter's Presence is fairly hardcore for reasons of cost anyway.

Anyway, Winters Presence aside, I think the main problem (for me) with the festival jumping puzzles is the timer. I've done most of the open world puzzles as intended (albeit with a rewinder), including Searing Ascent and Arm of Abaddon. But in those I can go at my own pace, there's checkpoints and the rewinder. But this isn't possible with the festival jumping puzzles. I don't really get why they need to be on a timer.

[Luthan.5236]

For experienced players that like to farm a lot - and play the game for a long time already (probably the ones with more posts in the forums but I also have a lot of posts and do not have a lot of money/gold lol) the cost of the other mats might be cheap.

Personally I try to not always buy the most expensive stuff. You can either go for

- everything (then you will need to farm a ton)

- for the stuff you like and want to use (depending on what you like ... it might still be a grind)

- completion

I usually go for completion. And I am lucky that I rarely like the expensive skins. (Winter's Presence I like ... though I do not need it that desperately. A lot of other nice stuff there that is cheaper.) If you go for completion ... you can try to buy the cheap stuff first. Even slowly buying something each festival - can be helpful here.

Also might combine well with slowly progressing for the Winter's Presence. Buy a few of the needed mats and store them in the bank - each time you feel like having enough money with something ready to spend for such stuff. If it takes years for the mats ...  then there also would be less pressure to get the 3/3. (Though "re-learning" the next year may be harder. Once you manged it once should be easier to do the next runs. "Maybe be" ... cause personally I did need to train a lot so that my "muscle memory" never will forget it though there is almost 1 year break until the next Wintersday.)

They (ArenaNet) ... maybe could consider including a checkpoint at the campfire (again - I think in 2012/13 there was one?) - then lowering the gifts you get as reward (or setting them to 0) - still allowing progression. Would be a middle thing/compromise. (In Halloween they completely made the JP optional but there was "only" the mini as reward for the other achievements.) Would still have the "timer" ... though for the first route there is the slow option. Probably the main annoying thing when learning ... making a mistake in the 2nd part (imo pretty easy ... but can be tricky unless you know how do do it - big exploding gift boxes I never fail anymore ... but with the pressure when you still want to learn/try ... harder) and then having to do the first part again.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[Cassam.9516]

Every Festival time, I try the Jumping puzzles involved with he Event. I more than often fail and just stop trying out of frustration. I am not disabled but my hand/eye coordination is not like it used to be. Yes there are other ways to get the achievements but it seems a tight scale of 7 out of 8 for me. 

[Rogue.8235]

Blind player here.  I don't have a right eye and my left eye is light sensitive and motion sensitive (no detail, effectively completely blind).

I managed to get the Wintersday meta achievement this year.  I couldn't do the JP at all, so I went with Bell Choir.  It takes a while, but it can be done blind.  Key is that you can quickly detect what octave you're on.  Then, keep at Bell Choir and memorize the songs for one of the octaves.  For me, the lowest octave was easiest.  Once learned, it's easy as it is always the same songs on repeat.  

Overall, it's a lot of work and a massive exercise in auditory memory.  These kinds of challenges are why I play video games blind.

All other events are pretty standard mechanics already learned through normal gameplay.  The biggest exception is the Lair.  So, I kept dying at the end because the cracks in the ground are visual only.  I couldn't hear any sort of audio cue for their presence and there is no unique audio feedback from stepping on them and dying from them.  Essentially, if you're blind, you'll be dying randomly in the Lair once the ground is cracked.  I don't have a way to adapt to this yet, as I'm still not completely familiar with the fight.

 

I find Wintersday to be pretty accessible for my disability.  The exceptions are the JP and a single mechanic in the Lair.