Nerfs = Lost Friends

[Junkpile.7439]

Play boring lame spec bacause it's broken and quit the game when it's balanced. 😵

[EyzKold.8247]

The guild / guild members I’m with basically are doing other things/games.  GW2 is basically dead atm especially in WVW.  I’m still trying out my own builds in wvw just for fun but for how long?  Eventually, I might be taking a break as well.  There is a lot of nerfs and toxic people as a result of the nerfs…adapt or die is what’s going around.

[Cyninja.2954]

13 hours ago, Alsandar.7420 said:

I just wish the devs (and some of you) would realize we’re talking about real people. We’re not talking about toons in a virtual world. These are real people that  I interact with 6 days/week. 

Furthermore, they’re not skilled gamers who stream on twitch and dominate their keyboards.

So, becoming decent at this game is now to much to ask? Since when does balance have to happen around the lowest denominator?

13 hours ago, Alsandar.7420 said:

These are moms with one toon who knows how to play one way and spent a year (minimum) earning legendaries in WvW. We have dads who play with their kids. We have retirees and grandparents. 

Then MMORPGs are not the type of game these players should focus on. MMORPGs are notorious for continuous balance and mixing things up, those MMORPGs that do not usually go the way of the Dodo.

Either way, maybe WvW is not the mode these players should focus on then, given its innate more competitive nature. There is a huge PvE open world to explore as well where build balance is of far less consequence.

13 hours ago, Alsandar.7420 said:

Adapt or gtfo is the attitude of the gw2 community. And you know what they tend to do? Gtfo just like you guys want. I’m just bummed everyone is quitting

Rather have people quit that are unwilling/unable to adapt to the game than have everyone else quit because the balance is horrible.

It is impossible to balance and develop a game around players with the mindset of "I don't like this 1 change so I quit". It literally doesn't work because eventually you will upset said person making them leave (in some cases they leave anyway because they are bored).

Edited December 17, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[enkidu.5937]

"big big WvW guild" lost some scourges. Voices gone in discord.

"carry-me, carry-me, carry-me"

thats so sad. Somebody give this boy an ice cream pls.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

The issue is that “making a class unplayable” is considered balance by people because of extreme bias. 
 

Not a lot of people can put this together…that when people kept asking for nerfs, eventually it would be their class that becomes meta and “overpowered” because balance in the game is a relative concept, not absolute. Everyone then just gets nerfed over and over in a cycle until “everyone’s got the stick.” Aka stick wars 2

 

we came pretty close to the stick wars 2 singularity but people were fighting against it enough to stop the all nerf philosophy because, turns out nerfing things into oblivion and making them non functional does not actually balance the game.

 

Like you said, the game is about options and exploring all the different permutations of builds. but as you can tell, people want to balance the game by deleting all the builds. It’s a vicious circle and it will obviously lead to the heat death of the game. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

It really does sound like: "A-net has nerfed broken stuff that was abused by my frandz, so they left qq". It's MMORPG, so it's kinda normal that people will start leaving? WvW as a gamemode hasn't changed for like 10 years now? Sure there were updates here and there, but overall gamemode is stale.
It's not a single player game after all, so why people expect that their cheese will always be a cheese and it won't ever be touched by devs?

[Cyninja.2954]

19 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

The issue is that “making a class unplayable” is considered balance by people because of extreme bias. 
 

Not a lot of people can put this together…that when people kept asking for nerfs, eventually it would be their class that becomes meta and “overpowered” because balance in the game is a relative concept, not absolute. Everyone then just gets nerfed over and over in a cycle until “everyone’s got the stick.” Aka stick wars 2

 

we came pretty close to the stick wars 2 singularity but people were fighting against it enough to stop the all nerf philosophy because, turns out nerfing things into oblivion and making them non functional does not actually balance the game.

 

Like you said, the game is about options and exploring all the different permutations of builds. but as you can tell, people want to balance the game by deleting all the builds. It’s a vicious circle and it will obviously lead to the heat death of the game. 

This entire segment is a very 1 sided view and as such incomplete and pretty much nonsense. At least when looking at GW2 and the balance record here.

Your entire argument only applies if there were never any corrections or reworks or buffs, which happen constantly. There is no "nerf spiral" because as some things get "nerfed" others might and will get buffed. In some cases over-buffed, in other cases corrections are long overdue and in again other cases entire new aspects enter the balance field (like an entire set of new specialization, or game design reworks, or system reworks).

The irony is that we are in one of the most balanced, at least in regards to PvE, time spans for the game. WvW and Spvp require a ton more work and even reworks to maybe get there, but even here some aspects are far more balanced than they were ever in the last few years (for example 2nd supports in WvW or squad power dps). Yet if you were going by complaints, one might think the game is as unbalanced as it could get, which is plain untrue.

The reality is: some players WANT unbalanced conditions. It allows them to swap to that unbalanced class and feel powerful and the fact there is no choice or alternative matters little to them. That is only apparent to players which actually like to multi-class.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Chaba.5410]

18 hours ago, Alsandar.7420 said:

These are moms with one toon who knows how to play one way and spent a year (minimum) earning legendaries in WvW. We have dads who play with their kids. We have retirees and grandparents. 
 

Adapt or gtfo is the attitude of the gw2 community. And you know what they tend to do? Gtfo just like you guys want. I’m just bummed everyone is quitting 

As a parent myself who spends some time in this game playing with older and more casual players too, I can assure you that these adults are more than capable of making their own decisions with their accounts, playstyles, online communities, time, and money regardless of what game developers do.

What is the realistic alternative here?  That the game is supposed to remain as it was at release and never change?  How does that keep players around?  Games change.  Social circles change.  This is nothing new nor unique to GW2.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[Kayowin.9217]

On 12/16/2022 at 2:05 PM, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

scourge is trash and reaper is waaay better at this point.

Certainly is now after the last two rounds of nerfs.   Those boon balls have too many mouths to feed and those damnable Scourges were such a problem for them and their PUG bag farming addictions.....

[Kayowin.9217]

5 hours ago, enkidu.5937 said:

"big big WvW guild" lost some scourges. Voices gone in discord.

"carry-me, carry-me, carry-me"

thats so sad. Somebody give this boy an ice cream pls.

And what do you play?  Firebrand?   😂

 

[Solvar.7953]

I do tthink nerfs and tuning are needed - if these were not done (or very infrequently), you would just see that 1 or 2 classes running around in WvW.

However, I also think something needs to be done for the new player experience.  New players may venture into WvW (see a daily there, or just curious).  More than likely, they will be very quickly killed if they run into any enemy players - a build that works well in PvE may not be great in WvW.

For some players, this will just turn them off WvW.  Other players may take the time and research and good a WvW build with good equipment, and actually succeed.  If they looked to the meta for that build, there is a higher chance of it getting nerfed.

So now that relatively new player needs to look at potentially levelling up another character and gearing it up.  If they only gear to exotic, not very costly, but they also suffer a 10% DPS penalty (not a big deal in PvE, could be difference between winning & losing a fight in WvW).  As relatively new players, highly unlikely that they have legendaries, and the money to gear up to ascended isn't cheap.  But they do this, and are happy again.  Then another nerf happens.  How many times do you think the player will go through this cycle before giving up?

Now for experienced players with full legendaries (or piles of gold and an army of alt characters), none of this is a big problem.  Until WvW is completely dead because no one new joins and thus currently playing slowly leave.

I know some games basically allow players to reset everything when they make big balance changes.  That has never really been the case in GW2 (I think there might have been 1 or 2 resets on trinkets for some reason I don't recall).  I wonder if just some method to allow gear resets occasionally would help out here.

 

[Dawdler.8521]

13 hours ago, Solvar.7953 said:

 I wonder if just some method to allow gear resets occasionally would help out here.

... but you can change ascended weapons and armor to any stat in the forge, including the WvW ascended trinkets because there is a reset item you can buy...

Edited December 18, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

who would've guessed that people don't enjoy boring slow paced keyboard hammering in the same quanitity of time that they used to play before? anet does nerfs since two, nearly three years now without any further thinking about that part

 

the combat is still pullable, but became grossly less enjoyable since literally every other "balance" patch that we got since the start at feb20's dmg coefficient demolition ...

 

it's not even hard to spot that most EU guilds quitted during these recent years. bc the balancing was a horrible mistake, like why'd u balance some gamemode, which was designed on chaos and uneven numbers anyways? you'd just improve the situations for numbers, which was exactly what happened, leaving only bad players in large sized blob-guilds to still play, against uncoordinated pug blob-clouds basically.

 

nothing else than this has been "acchieved", and u can be sure that this doesn't improve the player count balance of this gamemode. every half competent planning would have obviously noticed this tbh

 

[Solvar.7953]

12 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

... but you can change ascended weapons and armor to any stat in the forge, including the WvW ascended trinkets because there is a reset item you can buy...

It still costs something for the materials to change the stats.  My recollection is that the costs to stat change the armor itself was not that high (but also greater than nothing).

But what hurts is if you have a valuable rune/insignia, as stat changing destroys it.  So you either spend the money for the extractor tool, or loose it.

And if the new rune/insignia you want is also not cheap, you have to pay for that.

So while the cost to change all of this is not crazy expensive, it isn't super cheap either.

For players that have been playing a long time, none of this is likely an issue (have the items for the new stats, maybe have extra insignia/runes, etc).  But for new players who don't have a lot of gold and are needing to spend a bit of it to change to latest stat set, that probably doesn't leave a great taste in their mouth.

 

[Tammuz.7361]

On 12/15/2022 at 11:32 PM, Alsandar.7420 said:

I play in a big big WvW guild. Since the devs started “rebalancing” and nerfing… people have stopped playing. Voices in discord gone. Friends lost.

 

Devs… when your vision for WvW = people quitting you need to ask yourself why?

 

If you want to take you have to give something back in return. 
 

Very specific example = multiple Scourges just gone for us. They no longer log in at all.

As a former DPSer myself whos also quit WvW: basically successive nerfs have had an impact on the enjoyment of the game, really game mode from a DPS standpoint has been going down-hill ever since the whole "paradigm shift" patch a couple of years ago.

 

Following that up with ongoing and successive nerfs to ranged DPS hasnt helped.

 

Pre paradigm shift: multiple DPS classes (scourge and herald particularly) felt rewarding to play.

 

More specifically:

Herald felt like it rewarded solo skill in positioning: if you were able to get to a point on the flank and free cast on the enemy blob, you generated a ton of downs.

Scourge, while always more of a zerg class, was also rewarding to play in terms of damage and downs generated.

 

Now a days it feels like casting skills is more like firing blanks at the enemy since the whole massive increase in TTK, successive nerfs to DPS across the board, etc.  You either coordinate a spike with everyone else, or your basically doing nothing with your casts.

 

How your group performs is no longer dependent at all on the skill of individual DPSers, but seems almost entirely dependent on your support classes (guards, etc), DPS is now definitely in a secondary role of importance.  And individual play as a DPSer beyond being able to coordinate a spike when the commander calls for it, has almost no effect on the outcome of a fight (certainly not like it used to).

 

At some point, the environment just becomes unfun and unrewarding for DPSers to play in, and they quit logging in to WvW.

[Dawdler.8521]

  

1 hour ago, Solvar.7953 said:

It still costs something for the materials to change the stats.  My recollection is that the costs to stat change the armor itself was not that high (but also greater than nothing).

But what hurts is if you have a valuable rune/insignia, as stat changing destroys it.  So you either spend the money for the extractor tool, or loose it.

And if the new rune/insignia you want is also not cheap, you have to pay for that.

So while the cost to change all of this is not crazy expensive, it isn't super cheap either.

For players that have been playing a long time, none of this is likely an issue (have the items for the new stats, maybe have extra insignia/runes, etc).  But for new players who don't have a lot of gold and are needing to spend a bit of it to change to latest stat set, that probably doesn't leave a great taste in their mouth.

 

If you want it to cost nothing, then look to sPvP. In WvW gear cost because it uses PvE gear and as we all know WvWers are really into PvE.

 

45 minutes ago, Tammuz.7361 said:

Now a days it feels like casting skills is more like firing blanks at the enemy since the whole massive increase in TTK, successive nerfs to DPS across the board, etc.  You either coordinate a spike with everyone else, or your basically doing nothing with your casts.

Please inform players that since most classes has builds that can practically instakill or alternatively do a metric ton of damage while still being bunker as kitten.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Tammuz.7361]

On 12/18/2022 at 11:59 AM, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

the combat is still pullable, but became grossly less enjoyable since literally every other "balance" patch that we got since the start at feb20's dmg coefficient demolition ...

This pretty much sums it up.