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Dragon's End is still massively overtuned and random


Hauwlyn.8051

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4 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

You were asserting I didn't have experience with the fight, that was the personal attack.

That’s a weird personal attack, but okay. I wasn’t even the only one assuming that you don’t have much experience with this fight. 

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41 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

So, it's not that general population is displeased with having to use decent builds. It's that general population simply has no idea what is a decent build (and what is not). And then they get displeased when the game starts to require from them the knowledge they do not have, because the game did not provide it to them in easy enough to understand way.

Yet every time the developers introduce content which:

A. teaches basics and provides context to how the games systems work

B. ups the difficulty slightly to encourage improvement and experimentation

a part of the player base starts complaining. You can't have both. Failure is a part of the learning process. Catering to players who refuse to fail at any point in time basically stifles and kills all ability to teach.

What we seem to have seen though is that this game needs a variety of content for it's success and in order for the developers to be able to deliver this variety of content, they have to mix things up and not only please the lowest skill floor hopefully encouraging and leading some players to success.

I also disagree on your stance of this game being "far to difficult". There was a time before Snowcrows, Metabattle, Hardstuck, etc. and part of this player base managed just fine to overcome challenging content, most often self teaching themselves to a far larger degree than today. It absolutely is possible to self-teach one if so desired, it;s only that by now the resources which make this a lot easier are available so not everyone has to.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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I have never seen any group in months (and even just after release very rarely) that asked for any specific build. Never.

Some commanders (not all) ask for boon supports to identify themselves and distribute subgroups because thats just good practice. I also ask in Dragon Stand tower phase for players to distribute in boss and preserver group. 

But there is 0 requirement for anyone to join DE meta groups. Saying otherwise is just trying to push some strange personal agenda to players and forum users and only does harm. I agree that this meta could be handled better in some aspects and its good these are brought up. But I dont know why some players just blatantly lie about the requirements for this event.

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7 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

That’s a weird personal attack, but okay. I wasn’t even the only one assuming that you don’t have much experience with this fight. 

I found this response hysterical. Attacking someone's credentials in a discussion is a direct way of trying to invalidate what they're saying. Also other people doing the same thing, doesn't make it any better, also funny you lead this all the time but still completely didn't mention the adds that CC. 

I'll say it like this:

 

I had over 10 attempts (guessing, it's been a  while) just making random pugs or joining random pug groups for this, because that to me, is probably the most organization I think i sane to ask of OW. Every single one failed. No one who had random groups succeed could confirm there wasn't a private squad carrying them. 

 

Then, I had more organized groups that succeeded. And it was night and day. To me, that's just plain weird. Open world should be a place for more random forming of group/meeting people. And if anet really thinks that having fully organized 50 man groups is fun, that scares me a little. The only thing that's actually fun about full offensive boons is big numbers on your screen. 
 

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Yet every time the developers introduce content which:

A. teaches basics and provides context to how the games systems work

B. ups the difficulty slightly to encourage improvement and experimentation

 

a part of the player base starts complaining. You can't have both. Failure is a part of the learning process. Catering to players who refuse to fail at any point in time basically stifles and kills all ability to teach.


Couldn't logan just yell at us about Quick/alac/might/fury uptime during DE if that's what they want? It's the least they could do. Not that I actually think that positive or fun design, but it's the least they could do. 

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3 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I have never seen any group in months (and even just after release very rarely) that asked for any specific build. Never.

Some commanders (not all) ask for boon supports to identify themselves and distribute subgroups because thats just good practice. I also ask in Dragon Stand tower phase for players to distribute in boss and preserver group. 

But there is 0 requirement for anyone to join DE meta groups. Saying otherwise is just trying to push some strange personal agenda to players and forum users and only does harm. I agree that this meta could be handled better in some aspects and its good these are brought up. But I dont know why some players just blatantly lie about the requirements for this event.

DPS boon supports are kind of specific builds. Usually people providing alac/quick know what those are and are running them. It's true that you can get away with some unoptimized people, but just having those boon supports there guarantees a certain amount of baseline DPS. 

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1 minute ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Open world should be a place for more random forming of group/meeting people.

And here I disagree. I think there is room in open world for different kinds of content because there are different kinds of open world players. 
Why not have also meta events like DE meta? There still are 3 meta events in EoD where you can just randomly get on a map and succeed without any organization or communication. 

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3 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

And here I disagree. I think there is room in open world for different kinds of content because there are different kinds of open world players. 
Why not have also meta events like DE meta? There still are 3 meta events in EoD where you can just randomly get on a map and succeed without any organization or communication. 

Because you're pretty much guaranteeing anyone who doesn't play LFG wars fails, and being set up for failure in a game isn't fun. If it requires more organization, imo, it should be organized group content and obviously so. 

I literally didn't use the LFG for the first year or two I played this game. I didn't even know what a tag was. And this expansion railroads you straight into that meta. If it didn't do that in the story, I might not be as peeved, but I think this is a TERRIBLE new player experience. I'm glad my first serious open world meta was dragonfall. 

Edited by Firebeard.1746
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1 minute ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

DPS boon supports are kind of specific builds. Usually people providing alac/quick know what those are and are running them. It's true that you can get away with some unoptimized people, but just having those boon supports there guarantees a certain amount of baseline DPS. 

Your post is general and naturally is correct. But in today's situation no one requires them in DE meta. Distributing what you have efficiently is completely different to requiring something. 

I do this meta roughly once per week with various groups from organised to completely random. I can't remember the last fail. "Fail" is if the timer goes under 4 mins, success is if 8+ is left on the timer. 

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2 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Because you're pretty much guaranteeing anyone who doesn't play LFG wars fails, and being set up for failure in a game isn't fun. If it requires more organization, imo, it should be organized group content and obviously so. 

I literally didn't use the LFG for the first year or two I played this game. I didn't even know what a tag was. And this expansion railroads you straight into that meta. If it didn't do that in the story, I might not be as peeved, but I think this is a TERRIBLE new player experience. I'm glad my first serious open world meta was dragonfall. 

The meta is popular. Even if the crowd is a bit different than other metas (which I actually doubt based on my experience) it attracts a decent crowd. So why shouldnt the players that like the meta have what they like?

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Just now, Cuks.8241 said:

Your post is general and naturally is correct. But in today's situation no one requires them in DE meta. Distributing what you have efficiently is completely different to requiring something. 

I do this meta roughly once per week with various groups from organised to completely random. I can't remember the last fail. "Fail" is if the timer goes under 4 mins, success is if 8+ is left on the timer. 

Well I didn't have a ton of groups that tried this, but it didn't go well. At least 2 of the 10 random pugs I tried had a commander that used what was there and they still failed. If that works for you great, I won't argue against 2 different anecdotes. Though this makes me wonder if you're EU because my impression is EU does better at PVE in general. 

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Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

Well I didn't have a ton of groups that tried this, but it didn't go well. At least 2 of the 10 random pugs I tried had a commander that used what was there and they still failed. If that works for you great, I won't argue against 2 different anecdotes. Though this makes me wonder if you're EU because my impression is EU does better at PVE in general. 

Yes its EU and usually prime time. 

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2 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

The meta is popular. Even if the crowd is a bit different than other metas (which I actually doubt based on my experience) it attracts a decent crowd. So why shouldnt the players that like the meta have what they like?

I'm not advocating that. I'm saying put it in Eye of the North or do something similar. Why make people fail if there doesn't happen to be a commander their map? most groups open their own instance anyway, I don't know who we're fooling keeping it OW over organized group content. 

Edited by Firebeard.1746
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3 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Because you're pretty much guaranteeing anyone who doesn't play LFG wars fails, and being set up for failure in a game isn't fun. If it requires more organization, imo, it should be organized group content and obviously so. 

I literally didn't use the LFG for the first year or two I played this game. I didn't even know what a tag was. And this expansion railroads you straight into that meta. If it didn't do that in the story, I might not be as peeved, but I think this is a TERRIBLE new player experience. I'm glad my first serious open world meta was dragonfall. 

LFG is a part of the game. Learning how to use it is not a bad thing. 
I failed my first two attempts with the DE meta but that didn’t lead to frustration. It would be boring if you never fail in the game.  I got in a nice community that runs this meta regularly. 
 

The last meta event of the third expansion shouldn’t be focused exclusively on new players. There also are veteran players in this game. But even new players use the LFG. 

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Just now, Firebeard.1746 said:

I'm not advocating that. I'm saying put it in Eye of the North or do something similar. Why make people fail if there doesn't happen to be a common their map? most groups open their own instance anyway, I don't know who we're fooling keeping it OW over organized group content. 

For me a private event like DS would be great. For the game I think this is bad. Because this would ensure that casual players that avoid instanced content for some reason never do this meta.

Right now anyone can join this meta without saying a word, caring about the build or fearing any pressure. They dont even need to be in the squad. 

Players wanted Anet to bring instance content a OW closer together. Here we have DE meta, players complain.

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There’s raid mechanics? I’ve done this twice and it’s such a visual mess and abomination to look at, it just looked like a dps race with some platform bosses at stages. The main boss is barely even noticeable. I’d rather they focused on returning to clear fights like in core and HoT. Since ls4, big fight design has been a complete mess - Kourna, thunderhead, death branded Shatterer, junkyard - all a visual catastrophe. 

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1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

We use google and the internet for everything and all the time. But suddenly most players stop using google when it comes to the game they play? That’s really hard to believe.

And yet that's exactly what happens. It's not that it's hard to google for something, but that most players simply do not even think to look up most of those things. It's a well-known behaviour, actually.

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1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

When they are expected to use builds the game does not help them in any way to obtain? Yes. Notice, that to get more decent builds, players generally have to reach to third-party builds, which is not what most players do.

It would have been completely different if the build system was something straightforward and easy to learn, but it is not. What we have is something completely opposite to that - a freestyle system that is so convoluted that learning it on your own without help from others is practically impossible (to the point where even the extremely limited amount of people that are crafting the builds for the rest of the community didn't learn the system on their own).

So, it's not that general population is displeased with having to use decent builds. It's that general population simply has no idea what is a decent build (and what is not). And then they get displeased when the game starts to require from them the knowledge they do not have, because the game did not provide it to them in easy enough to understand way.

Let's paint the picture. Dragons' End is a culmination of a decade-long story. Anet wants to implement slightly harder meta event into the game. They reused mechanics and AOEs that are years old. Decent power-dps builds pretty much have not changed since 2015. Decent boon providing builds pretty much have not changed since 2017. There is a ton of ways to get the gear to play those "new" builds. The new meta does not require from players sophisticated knowledge about the game.  

Are we really not allowed to have metas like this in the game at all because general population is not willing to spend 5min searching for generic build? 

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1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yet every time the developers introduce content which:

A. teaches basics and provides context to how the games systems work

The things the game atempts to teach is something completely different than what i am talking about. There's exactly zero attempts made to teach players buildcraft.

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

B. ups the difficulty slightly to encourage improvement and experimentation

And people do experiment. It's just, without deeper knowledge of underlying systems, and lacking hints showing them the direction they should experiment towards (and how they should do that), most are doomed to fail. Sure, from time to time someone will luck out into a good build just by trying stuff blindly, but that's just random chance, nothing more. And it's quite likely that the person will not even know they managed to get a decent build, and will keep experimenting on, actually making it worse.

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

a part of the player base starts complaining. You can't have both. Failure is a part of the learning process.

If there was a learning process that would be completely contained within the game, you'd have a point. It's just 99% of that learning process takes place outside.

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Catering to players who refuse to fail at any point in time basically stifles and kills all ability to teach.

Sure, but, again, you'd have to start teaching first. Instead, the game just keeps upping up requirement, but without teaching.

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

What we seem to have seen though is that this game needs a variety of content for it's success and in order for the developers to be able to deliver this variety of content, they have to mix things up and not only please the lowest skill floor hopefully encouraging and leading some players to success.

Anet: "We encourage you to succeed!"

Player: "How i am supposed to do that"

Anet: "Not telling you that, figure that out by yourself"

Player: "but i don't even known in which drection i should look."

Anet: "That's how our game design works"

Player: "i kept trying, but nothing seems to work"

Anet: "that's your problem, not ours"

Player (after trying even more stuff and still being no closer to the success than before) "...kitten this"

That's pretty much how it looks like from a lot of players' point of view.

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I also disagree on your stance of this game being "far to difficult". There was a time before Snowcrows, Metabattle, Hardstuck, etc. and part of this player base managed just fine to overcome challenging content, most often self teaching themselves to a far larger degree than today. It absolutely is possible to self-teach one if so desired, it;s only that by now the resources which make this a lot easier are available so not everyone has to.

Nope. Even at the begining the first players that actually pushed the skill envelope up didn't do it on their own. There was an active exchange between players going on to understand the game systems, and it wasn't being done individually - it was a massive group effort. It took months for players to research how the damage calculations work, how exactly different attributes impact things, how exactly skills work, etc. Most of the informations from wiki we curently take for granted were not known then and had to be researched (as Anet was not forthcoming with those). And it was being researched not by individuals working independently from each other, but by players bouncing their knowledge and info against each other. Notice, btw, how still next to none of that info is visible in easy to understand form in game. And it's a knowledge that simply cannot be recreaded by individuals that try to do it all by themselves.

Another fun fact - when the damage meters appeared, it turned out that a lot of the assumptions buildcrafters were making were actually wrong. Seeing actual dps numbers live (instead of having to calculate basing on killing some mobs, for example) resulted in quite a big reshuffling of meta then.

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@Cyninja.2954

To add to the post above:

The issue is that Anet created a stat/build/skill design that is designed for a relatively small and niche hardcore community, then implemented it in game that is being mostly filled with casuals. And then started requiring knowledge of that system not only in parts of the game that were meant for abovementioned more hardcore subcommunities, but also in those that are primarily meant for those that are not part of that group. That combination is never going to work. They can try it 1000s of times, and they will get the exact same results 100% of the time.

The existing system creates too big of a gap, and is designed in such a way that it's next to impossible for the game to help players bridge it. As such, the game can at best keep pushing players across it, but most will never make that jump, no matter how hard you push.

Edited by Astralporing.1957
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39 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954

To add to the post above:

The issue is that Anet created a stat/build/skill design that is designed for a relatively small and niche hardcore community, then implemented it in game that is being mostly filled with casuals. And then started requiring knowledge of that system not only in parts of the game that were meant for abovementioned more hardcore subcommunities, but also in those that are primarily meant for those that are not part of that group. That combination is never going to work. They can try it 1000s of times, and they will get the exact same results 100% of the time.

 

I disagree with your premise from above by a simple fact that I was succeeding at all of the games content pre HoT (even high level fractals) without this deep understanding you are taling about. There is no point arguing over this though given I doubt I can change your mind and neither will you change mine.

 

This game has never needed that level of performance for success and it doesn't even now. For most content all that is needed is simple success or failure to show players they are not performing up to speed, even for HT CM from a build perspective.

 

That said, I completely disagree that this game was made for "casual" players, neither was Guild Wars 1. The content provided and introduced into the game was for a majority aimed at multiple levels of skill (in all areas). In fact some of the core areas, fights, story content and encounters surpass most content difficulty released with PoF and even EoD (or the reworked HoT). Which has been very evident in recent times with some content getting re-released at current power creep level (or say clearing TT for exmaple with massive power crept builds).

More casual players have always been part of the player base, but they were always only part of it and the most healthy times this game saw was when there was active development for many types of player. Almost as though having aspirational content was beneficial for retaining many players, no matter if they engaged with it immediately or not.

It's with PoF that the developers started embracing the "open world and story must be kitten level easy and we will stop supporting the competative modes", while they were unofficially working on ending the game, and it directly affected this games performance.

I would really appreciate it if veteran players who have been with the this game that long would stop sticking to this false narrative that this game was "made for casuals". It never was and we have sufficient data to show us where and how the game will end if that is the only demografic served.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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12 hours ago, vares.8457 said:

it does. Open World doesn’t have to be boring. 

Getting zero rewards because random people in an open world event failed at doing mechanics is the epitome of boring.

Difficult content you need proper classes and organization  belongs in INSTANCES, and nowhere else.

  

7 hours ago, vares.8457 said:

That’s not true but if you prefer boring and unchallenging open world content you can play the other 99% of open world. 
Everyone can join an organized squad, no one has to fail the meta. 

You just explained why this content is a failure. The other 99% of the games open world content has nearly 100% clear rates.

Edited by Kozumi.5816
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4 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

When they are expected to use builds the game does not help them in any way to obtain? Yes. Notice, that to get more decent builds, players generally have to reach to third-party builds, which is not what most players do.

It would have been completely different if the build system was something straightforward and easy to learn, but it is not. What we have is something completely opposite to that - a freestyle system that is so convoluted that learning it on your own without help from others is practically impossible (to the point where even the extremely limited amount of people that are crafting the builds for the rest of the community didn't learn the system on their own).

So, it's not that general population is displeased with having to use decent builds. It's that general population simply has no idea what is a decent build (and what is not). And then they get displeased when the game starts to require from them the knowledge they do not have, because the game did not provide it to them in easy enough to understand way.

When Anet added templates they should have added a "recommended builds" button for each class. I'm sure random streamers would've gladly done a build for every class for FREE.

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3 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yet every time the developers introduce content which:

A. teaches basics and provides context to how the games systems work

B. ups the difficulty slightly to encourage improvement and experimentation

a part of the player base starts complaining. You can't have both. Failure is a part of the learning process. Catering to players who refuse to fail at any point in time basically stifles and kills all ability to teach.

I'm all for difficult content. In instances where I can choose my teammates.

I absolutely do not want difficult open world  content that takes 2 hours to do and rewards nearly nothing if I fail. That's masochism.

Edited by Kozumi.5816
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8 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

 

I absolutely do not want difficult open world  content that takes 2 hours to do and rewards nearly nothing if I fail. That's masochism.

Then don’t do it, no one is forcing you to do the DE meta, there is enough content for you that has no challenge or difficulty, where all you have to do is auto attack and where your build and gear doesn’t matter. 

Edited by yoni.7015
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7 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

Then don’t do it, no one is forcing you to do the DE meta, there is enough content for you that has no challenge or difficulty, where all you have to do is auto attack and where your build and gear doesn’t matter. 

I don't, and most people don't either. Hopefully the uproar of new players who can't get their turtles because no one's doing the content makes Anet finally change it.

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