Dragon's End is still massively overtuned and random

[yoni.7015]

1 minute ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

I don't, and most people don't either. Hopefully the uproar of new players who can't get their turtles because no one's doing the content makes Anet finally change it.

You don’t have to do the meta to get the turtle. There are often new players in the squads when I do the meta. 
Not everyone cries for days because he failed an event in a video game. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Schimmi.6872]

13 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Getting zero rewards because random people in an open world event failed at doing mechanics is the epitome of boring.

Difficult content you need proper classes and organization  belongs in INSTANCES, and nowhere else.

  

You just explained why this content is a failure. The other 99% of the games open world content has nearly 100% clear rates.

And who decided that only easy metas are allowed in open world?

It seems people forgot after all the power creep of the last years and the nerfs to some events, that we had a bunch of metas / events that were harder and/or needed more organisation than DE in the past. Lets just think of LS1, reworked Tequatl, TT, DS and Gerent at release, T6 DT, etc..

 

I actually think it's a pity that most large scale events got so much easier over time and we lost a bunch of dedicated players, guilds and communities because of this.

[yoni.7015]

1 minute ago, Schimmi.6872 said:

And who decided that only easy metas are allowed in open world?

Kozumi, apparently. Open World has enough room for a variety of content. 

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

I'm all for difficult content. In instances where I can choose my teammates.

I absolutely do not want difficult open world  content that takes 2 hours to do and rewards nearly nothing if I fail. That's masochism.

Fair enough, but have you ever considered that what you want might be in direct conflict with what the game might need to survive?

Let's look at how other MMORPGs promote their instanced content:

they predominantly make it mandatory as part of their gear thread mill. In fact, most open world content in other MMORPGs becomes irrelevant a few weeks/months into a current expansion.

That obviously wouldn't work in GW2. As such the corresponding adaptation here would be: make instanced content far superior reward wise to open world content, or the other way around: nerf open world content rewards SIGNIFICANTLY. Doesn't sound fun now does it?

The developers have openly communicated that all their attempts currently are centered around getting more players ready, able and willing to try instanced content. It's also clearly visible in their streamlining of content in an attempt to offer multiple difficulties. The necessity here is that first steps are taken in open world and story content to allow a better transition. The alternative is as described above: force players into instanced content by making the rewards there far more appealing.

So while you might want that the developers go about this in a different way, there just might not be any other way possible with the given resources when wanting to keep the game healthy.

EDIT:

and just to show that we all might want things we don't get. I might WANT to get regular raid wing releases of at least 2 per year. Chances are very high I will not get that though, and that too is probably due to not being sustainable within the current resources available.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Kate.3679]

So I logged on this morning on the NA servers (10 AM eastern meta) and clicked the first squad I saw in lfg. Another easy clear with 4 minutes left on the timer. The squad didn't even have a commander until someone volunteered to tag up and sort people. I streamed the entire thing to show you there wasn't any "hidden private squad" carrying us. And it wasn't good rng either, she swapped sides a lot during 80-60% and 60-40%. I haven't failed this meta in over 30 attempts since March.

 

Here is the vod: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1687703205
And here is the corresponding log: https://dps.report/TiLl-20221224-104637_de

Edited December 24, 2022 by Ruru.1302

[mandala.8507]

4 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Yet every time the developers introduce content which:

A. teaches basics and provides context to how the games systems work

B. ups the difficulty slightly to encourage improvement and experimentation

a part of the player base starts complaining.

Okay, let me set up an analogy for what you've described and how making something like DE hard actually works.

Imagine you're doing a group project for an intro class for your major that everyone has to take.

Like most group projects, there are people doing a lot of the work and organizing, and then there are people that are just kind of along for the ride.

Now the teacher, in an attempt to get more people to pull their weight in the class and hopefully learn the material, made the group project significantly harder.

What the teacher thought would happen (wrongly) is that more students would step it up to get the grade they wanted since now it'd be a lot harder for groups with a lot of slackers to succeed without learning the material.

What actually happened was the group project became exponentially harder for the few students who were carrying everyone else in their groups. Some of the students who were succeeding at carrying their groups for the project before just couldn't handle doing so much extra work, so their groups failed the project.

And all the people who had been successfully skating by didn't just start magically carrying their weight and doing more for the project. Most of them just dropped the class or switched majors.

Now, some students were smart and tried to only pick group members who they thought would do their work, but of course not everyone can do this since all the students have to do the project and are trying to do the same thing (this is analogous to how there is so much stuff locked behind the meta, that even if you don't like the project, you still have to do it to get to the stuff you do actually want).

These students that were in good groups then claimed the project wasn't that hard and that all the students who failed were just lazy and didn't want to pull their weight. Meanwhile, the poor souls who were in groups doing basically the whole project by themselves who were working harder than the students in the good groups where everyone was contributing realized that the project wasn't appropriate for this introductory class.

Sure, making a project harder for a 500 level course for upperclassmen (analogous to raids) would perhaps motivate everyone to try harder and learn more (it could still end up with the same result, though, if the teacher made the project ludicrously difficult), but in the intro class it just made the class and the major less popular because the project was too hard.

Do you see how, if we suspend with the analogy, this meta (the project) is too hard, making the class (EoD) and the major (Gw2) less popular?

Nobody got better, some of the bad players just left and the good players now have to try harder to carry the less-bad bad players.

You're incorrect for saying the DE meta taught players anything. It just asked players to show up knowing more or get carried/carry harder. Nothing about DE is educational.

[Baseleader.4128]

40 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Now, some students were smart and tried to only pick group members who they thought would do their work, but of course not everyone can do this since all the students have to do the project and are trying to do the same thing (this is analogous to how there is so much stuff locked behind the meta, that even if you don't like the project, you still have to do it to get to the stuff you do actually want).

This is not what happens though. The good students are creating a big group where all groups of people are allowed in, there is no selection whatsoever, and then ask what kind of skills people have and try to create a structure that maximizes the group's ability and the result is that everyone finishes the project with a good grade. The good players arent excluding other players and only doing the meta among them. They create squads and subgroups. Send people where people need to go and the meta almost always succeeds in these groups.

 

Yes the meta requires a basic level of organization and veterans are more than willing to provide this. You may need to use the LFG a bit but anyone is welcome in these squads. No one is ever checked in any way and no one is ever forced to change their build (even though changing a skill to accomodate a group is the smallest of requests).

[Cyninja.2954]

56 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Okay, let me set up an analogy for what you've described and how making something like DE hard actually works.

Imagine you're doing a group project for an intro class for your major that everyone has to take.

Like most group projects, there are people doing a lot of the work and organizing, and then there are people that are just kind of along for the ride.

Now the teacher, in an attempt to get more people to pull their weight in the class and hopefully learn the material, made the group project significantly harder.

What the teacher thought would happen (wrongly) is that more students would step it up to get the grade they wanted since now it'd be a lot harder for groups with a lot of slackers to succeed without learning the material.

What actually happened was the group project became exponentially harder for the few students who were carrying everyone else in their groups. Some of the students who were succeeding at carrying their groups for the project before just couldn't handle doing so much extra work, so their groups failed the project.

And all the people who had been successfully skating by didn't just start magically carrying their weight and doing more for the project. Most of them just dropped the class or switched majors.

Now, some students were smart and tried to only pick group members who they thought would do their work, but of course not everyone can do this since all the students have to do the project and are trying to do the same thing (this is analogous to how there is so much stuff locked behind the meta, that even if you don't like the project, you still have to do it to get to the stuff you do actually want).

These students that were in good groups then claimed the project wasn't that hard and that all the students who failed were just lazy and didn't want to pull their weight. Meanwhile, the poor souls who were in groups doing basically the whole project by themselves who were working harder than the students in the good groups where everyone was contributing realized that the project wasn't appropriate for this introductory class.

Sure, making a project harder for a 500 level course for upperclassmen (analogous to raids) would perhaps motivate everyone to try harder and learn more (it could still end up with the same result, though, if the teacher made the project ludicrously difficult), but in the intro class it just made the class and the major less popular because the project was too hard.

Do you see how, if we suspend with the analogy, this meta (the project) is too hard, making the class (EoD) and the major (Gw2) less popular?

Nobody got better, some of the bad players just left and the good players now have to try harder to carry the less-bad bad players.

You're incorrect for saying the DE meta taught players anything. It just asked players to show up knowing more or get carried/carry harder. Nothing about DE is educational.

I love how you wrote all that gibberish only to forget 1 thing: you are dealing in absolutes. Sure, not all students might have put in more effort or improved. Some probably switched classes and others probably did not pass the course (hello less organized meta runs). Those were never the target audience for this.The ones that wanted to pass and put in the additional work were, and the same applies here.

Dragon's End and more challenging content does not HAVE to get every player to improve. It's absolutely sufficient that some do, which is the only goal here. No one wants to change the entire player base. Its sufficient if enough improve so that they can if desired move on to more challenging content. That's the developers goal here. That's what they are trying to achieve in order to be able to provide the content they feel is necessary to keep this game moving forward.

Now unless you want to take the position that absolutely no player what so ever decided to read up or pay attention to what is going on during this encounter, which would again be an absolute and pretty nonsensical position to take, and thus improve, your entire argument falls apart.

Going even further, the fact that entire sub communities developed around this meta with players actively seeking participation within those communities and actively shaping successful runs, is already an indicator that at least some amount of knowledge is being passed on, if only that the LFG system might be inadequate.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[mandala.8507]

17 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I love how you wrote all that gibberish only to forget 1 thing: you are dealing in absolutes. Sure, not all students might have put in more effort or improved. Some probably switched classes and others probably did not pass the course (hello less organized meta runs). Those were never the target audience for this.The ones that wanted to pass and put in the additional work were, and the same applies here.

You're totally right. Story gamers who just want to do their collections and talk to NPCs vital to understanding the narrative and character arcs for the expansion were absolutely not the target audience for this meta. It's a good thing there weren't mountains of collections, voiced dialogue, and lore locked behind completing it multiple times. 🙂 

So...do you think that's a problem, or is it another "get good" moment? Should story gamers have to get good? Are you of the opinion that if they don't want to "put in additional work," they "aren't the target audience" and should probably go ahead and "switch classes" and likely switch majors as well?

And what should the solution be at this point now that the content is where it is? Should it be to keep the casual gamers unhappy and unsatisfied with the finale of a 10-year long arc (narratively so much of which is locked behind this meta) so that hardcore-oriented players who got 4 new strikes with some of the most challenging CMs can fantasize about how this meta is maybe-possibly-sorta-kinda making players better, or should it be to make the open world fight less of a weed-out for more casual players at literally no cost to hardcore gamers by making the timer (that according to all of you doesn't matter and you hardly ever fail) less tight when players are literally asking them to do that?

I'd also love to see you flesh out this idea that the game has to cater to its hardcore audience or fail to survive. I don't think anyone with a single clue about the current gaming market and culture believes this, but you keep saying it.

The funny part is, this expansion did cater heavily to hardcore players and made the game noticeably more challenging at every possible turn, but those players are still chronically livid that Guild Wars 2 isn't Darks Souls NG+7.

Luckily, the creatives were on point, so the arbitrary difficulty increase was overshadowed by the quality of the content.

[Cyninja.2954]

8 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

I'd also love to see you flesh out this idea that the game has to cater to its hardcore audience or fail to survive. I don't think anyone with a single clue about the current gaming market and culture believes this, but you keep saying it.

I'm just going by what the revenue has been in the past and well what the developers of THIS game are currently doing. I mean I am sure you know better than them and will find tons of alternative explanations for past revenue reports (which isn't that hard, it can be interpreted in different ways). Me, I'm just going with what I see here and now.

Make sure to provide tons of resources when you submit your recommendations and ideas for improvement to the developers as to how they should change the game based around current market realities given you disagree with their approach on some issues.

8 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

The funny part is, this expansion did cater heavily to hardcore players and made the game noticeably more challenging at every possible turn, but those players are still chronically livid that Guild Wars 2 isn't Darks Souls NG+7.

Luckily, the creatives were on point, so the arbitrary difficulty increase was overshadowed by the quality of the content.

If by "it added watered down scalable content" while lowering the skill bar and passing out boons left and right you understand catering to hardcore players, then sure. Also yes, I did enjoy the increase from 0-1% of challenging content to maybe 5-10% (that's about how much I'd attribute to strikes taking up from the entire expansion development, once again the maps and story probably taking up the majority of work).

You are correct though, the developers seem to have found a good and hopefully sustainable balance in how they want to release content (and we will know more on this in their next update on where they are going with the game). The game has done really well this year. So why are you complaining again?

Edited December 24, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Cuks.8241]

9 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

You're totally right. Story gamers who just want to do their collections and talk to NPCs vital to understanding the narrative and character arcs for the expansion were absolutely not the target audience for this meta. It's a good thing there weren't mountains of collections, voiced dialogue, and lore locked behind completing it multiple times. 🙂 

 

Even if it would be true that this meta would be inaccessible to "story" gamers, which is not true. 

Why shouldnt non story gamers (thats a silly distinction anyway) , competitive gamers get collections, rewards and dialogues in their own content. 

Raids have all of that. You raid if I read correctly. Was all that non combat trivia and all those fluff rewards from raids completely redundant? Maybe for you (and I get that) but Im sure many enjoyed them. 

[Silent.6137]

2 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Okay, let me set up an analogy for what you've described and how making something like DE hard actually works.

......

You're incorrect for saying the DE meta taught players anything. It just asked players to show up knowing more or get carried/carry harder. Nothing about DE is educational.

Fake analogy since none of the players are prevented from joining one group or another at any other time. There is totally free movements limited by group size only.

This is the correct scenarios. In majority of the undergraduate course loads, everyone are able to pass by just doing minimal courseworks by groupings with whomever on any projects. And there's always someone in each group designated as leader.

As they enter the more advanced years and are presented with a few more advanced materials, some of these leaders stepped up and do some basic organization to better utilize their resources in these random groupings. Knowing that to do nothing will result in failures. However, some of the other leaders refused to change to tackle the harder contents even after repeated failing attempts. They figured that donning the leader's tag should have been more than enough to carry the groups through.

So they come to the forum to complain instead and insisted any materials more advanced than the rest should be confined to Master Degrees only. And that those have no place in Bachelor Degrees curriculum.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Silent.6137

[mandala.8507]

1 minute ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Even if it would be true that this meta would be inaccessible to "story" gamers, which is not true. 

Why shouldnt non story gamers (thats a silly distinction anyway) , competitive gamers get collections, rewards and dialogues in their own content. 

Raids have all of that. You raid if I read correctly. Was all that non combat trivia and all those fluff rewards from raids completely redundant? Maybe for you (and I get that) but Im sure many enjoyed them. 

Raids are isolated stories. They tie in heavily to the narrative of the world in some instances, but they're largely unnecessary for understanding the story as a whole. Any parts of the raid story that are important are placed in the open world and accessible, believe it or not.

DE is THE story. The quests and dialogue locked behind it are THE story.

And THE story should be for everyone.

[yoni.7015]

Just now, mandala.8507 said:

And THE story should be for everyone.

Good thing it is. 

[mandala.8507]

5 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

Fake analogy since none of the players are prevented from joining one group or another at any other time. There is totally free movements limited by group size only.

This is the correct scenarios. In majority of the undergraduate course loads, everyone are able to pass by just doing minimal courseworks by groupings with whomever on any projects. And there's always someone in each group designated as leader.

As they enter the more advanced years and are presented with a few more advanced materials, some of these leaders stepped up and do some basic organization to better utilize their resources in these random groupings. Knowing that to do nothing will result in failures. However, some of the other leaders refused to change to tackle the harder contents even after repeated failing attempts. They figured that donning the leader's tag should have been more than enough to carry the groups through.

So they come to the forum to complain instead and insisted any materials more advanced than the rest should be confined to Master Degrees only. And that those have no place in Bachelor Degrees curriculum.

By trying to undermine my point, you've made my point. Congratulations.

[Krzysztof.5973]

19 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

You're totally right. Story gamers who just want to do their collections and talk to NPCs vital to understanding the narrative and character arcs for the expansion were absolutely not the target audience for this meta. It's a good thing there weren't mountains of collections, voiced dialogue, and lore locked behind completing it multiple times. 🙂 

So...do you think that's a problem, or is it another "get good" moment? Should story gamers have to get good? Are you of the opinion that if they don't want to "put in additional work," they "aren't the target audience" and should probably go ahead and "switch classes" and likely switch majors as well?

And what should the solution be at this point now that the content is where it is? Should it be to keep the casual gamers unhappy and unsatisfied with the finale of a 10-year long arc (narratively so much of which is locked behind this meta) so that hardcore-oriented players who got 4 new strikes with some of the most challenging CMs can fantasize about how this meta is maybe-possibly-sorta-kinda making players better, or should it be to make the open world fight less of a weed-out for more casual players at literally no cost to hardcore gamers by making the timer (that according to all of you doesn't matter and you hardly ever fail) less tight when players are literally asking them to do that?

I'd also love to see you flesh out this idea that the game has to cater to its hardcore audience or fail to survive. I don't think anyone with a single clue about the current gaming market and culture believes this, but you keep saying it.

The funny part is, this expansion did cater heavily to hardcore players and made the game noticeably more challenging at every possible turn, but those players are still chronically livid that Guild Wars 2 isn't Darks Souls NG+7.

Luckily, the creatives were on point, so the arbitrary difficulty increase was overshadowed by the quality of the content.

The story-driven finale is in story instance. Those "casual" gamers have 99% of the game to enjoy. All you will miss are couple flavor dialogues with the dragons after the meta is over. Also I thought we were against portraying casuals as bad at the game. Even casual gamers should know the basics of the game. You can play the game casually and be capable at your role (doing damage as dps or proving boons like quickness or alacrity as support). The "git gud" part ends here - know the basics to contribute enough so this meta can succeed. 

This will not suddenly drive away every single casual player. They will also not become "hardcore" players by doing so...

[Silent.6137]

Just now, mandala.8507 said:

By trying to undermine my point, you've made my point. Congratulations.

You presented a false premise. Which is hardly making any point at all. But thank you all the same. I humbly accept the congratulations. And will make sure to share the rewards with the rest of my groups as we celebrate yet another victory.

[Firebeard.1746]

3 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Fair enough, but have you ever considered that what you want might be in direct conflict with what the game might need to survive?

Let's look at how other MMORPGs promote their instanced content:

they predominantly make it mandatory as part of their gear thread mill. In fact, most open world content in other MMORPGs becomes irrelevant a few weeks/months into a current expansion.

That obviously wouldn't work in GW2. As such the corresponding adaptation here would be: make instanced content far superior reward wise to open world content, or the other way around: nerf open world content rewards SIGNIFICANTLY. Doesn't sound fun now does it?

The developers have openly communicated that all their attempts currently are centered around getting more players ready, able and willing to try instanced content. It's also clearly visible in their streamlining of content in an attempt to offer multiple difficulties. The necessity here is that first steps are taken in open world and story content to allow a better transition. The alternative is as described above: force players into instanced content by making the rewards there far more appealing.

So while you might want that the developers go about this in a different way, there just might not be any other way possible with the given resources when wanting to keep the game healthy.

EDIT:

and just to show that we all might want things we don't get. I might WANT to get regular raid wing releases of at least 2 per year. Chances are very high I will not get that though, and that too is probably due to not being sustainable within the current resources available.

I got back into WoW because of DE. If Anet is going to start becoming too much like other MMOs or make that level of coordination required, for its chillest content, I might as well raid in WoW. 

[Firebeard.1746]

3 hours ago, Ruru.1302 said:

So I logged on this morning on the NA servers (10 AM eastern meta) and clicked the first squad I saw in lfg. Another easy clear with 4 minutes left on the timer. The squad didn't even have a commander until someone volunteered to tag up and sort people. I streamed the entire thing to show you there wasn't any "hidden private squad" carrying us. And it wasn't good rng either, she swapped sides a lot during 80-60% and 60-40%. I haven't failed this meta in over 30 attempts since March.

 

Here is the vod: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1687703205
And here is the corresponding log: https://dps.report/TiLl-20221224-104637_de

I'm sorry I've done this so much and had it fail it's still sheer dumb luck to me. I also don't play at 10 AM ET, so that might be the issue. 

[Firebeard.1746]

8 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

For me a private event like DS would be great. For the game I think this is bad. Because this would ensure that casual players that avoid instanced content for some reason never do this meta.

Right now anyone can join this meta without saying a word, caring about the build or fearing any pressure. They dont even need to be in the squad. 

Players wanted Anet to bring instance content a OW closer together. Here we have DE meta, players complain.

Except your post ignores the fact that enough of them must care about their build. Random group failures, at least in my experience are super common, so you're basically giving them something like instanced group content and setting them up to fail. It's true some people can be carried, but without enough coordination, the meta fails. 

Anywho, anet has the numbers, it's clear there's a bunch of die-hards watching this conversation trying to drown out anything anyone else says. Anet made me play this game less by making me fail it 10 times in a row. That's their problem. It's clear plenty of lurkers agree with OP based on reactions to the OP. You all can say what you want but it doesn't change reality. And there's multiple. Depending on region, play times, etc and it's clear the reality for most players is they're not having fun with this. And at this point, we're sitting on survivor bias, the reactions were even stronger after it was first released. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Silent.6137]

15 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Anywho, anet has the numbers, it's clear there's a bunch of die-hards watching this conversation trying to drown out anything anyone else says. Anet made me play this game less by making me fail it 10 times in a row. That's their problem. It's clear plenty of lurkers agree with OP based on reactions. You all can say what you want but it doesn't change reality. And there's multiple. Depending on region, play times, etc. 

Who is trying to drown out what you say? If your points are flawed, others are going to debate it. Even if they are flawless, not everyone will share your viewpoints. It's ridiculous to think there's some hidden agenda or conspiracy.

There's multiple threads with lots of suggestions on ways to get successful meta. If you insist on doing it the same way no matter how many times you fail, do you really expect a different result?

If more people try to make this a more winnable meta by just doing a little organizing, it'll benefit everyone. Higher successes will create more groups and it'll be easier to find groups to join at any meta events. And I don't mean higher successes through raid-like structure but basic organizing as groups are doing them now to ensure virtually 100% successes. And it'll benefit me as well since I will not be confined to peak hours and have to join earlier than necessary before squads fill up.

If you can't find LFG squads to join, it's probably because they fills up extremely fast and are formed an hour before Escort (which is unnecessary but done that way for reasons discussed in other threads). Maybe join Discord groups such as Hardstuck or OTC. They run several DE meta daily for both NA and EU. There are many such groups, not just in Discord but also community guilds that are created specifically for meta events only.

[Firebeard.1746]

11 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

Who is trying to drown out what you say? If your points are flawed, others are going to debate it. Even if they are flawless, not everyone will share your viewpoints. It's ridiculous to think there's some hidden agenda or conspiracy.

I'm not seeing any good answers to questions me or others have asked and just a ton of "confused" reactions. 

I'll re-ask one such question here: what's so much fun about jengaing roles for this to succeed? How is this fun and engaging gameplay? 

I'll quote another:

 

Quote

And what should the solution be at this point now that the content is where it is? Should it be to keep the casual gamers unhappy and unsatisfied with the finale of a 10-year long arc (narratively so much of which is locked behind this meta) so that hardcore-oriented players who got 4 new strikes with some of the most challenging CMs can fantasize about how this meta is maybe-possibly-sorta-kinda making players better, or should it be to make the open world fight less of a weed-out for more casual players at literally no cost to hardcore gamers by making the timer (that according to all of you doesn't matter and you hardly ever fail) less tight when players are literally asking them to do that?

And as far as this goes, it's nothing novel, I already do this and play the meta less as a result:
 

11 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

If more people try to make this a more winnable meta by just doing a little organizing, it'll benefit everyone. Higher successes will create more groups and it'll be easier to find groups to join at any meta events. And I don't mean higher successes through raid-like structure but basic organizing as groups are doing them now to ensure virtually 100% successes. And it'll benefit me as well since I will not be confined to peak hours and have to join earlier than necessary before squads fill up.

So to me, this conversation seems very disconnected from the OP and I still haven't seen any of you say what most of the people reacting favorably to the OP as missing. Why aren't they having fun? I mean your solution is all over these forums, probably stated multiple times in our exchange alone and I've yet to see you explain that. I'm sure most people understand the formula for success now. They're just not having fun. 

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Ultramex.1506]

The "have to use lfg to win" complaints really made me scratch my head. Sorry havent we been doing that since Teq?

HoT lfg have 3-4 comms in the same map for what purpose? To get as many players as possible for each lane for each required mechanic, DE is just doing the same thing

"Require boon" this is what i would consider legit but i have said many times, just click on trait that give everyone boon no gears change needed

[Silent.6137]

14 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Why aren't they having fun? I mean your solution is all over these forums, probably stated multiple times in our exchange alone and I've yet to see you explain that. I'm sure most people understand the formula for success now. They're just not having fun.

Simple answer. Winning is fun. If they keep failing, it'll just lead to frustrations and that definitely is not fun.

And why are they repeating the same thing? Suggestions and advice had been given aplenty. And none of them include making groups that even come anywhere close to raid structures.

We keep hearing players that had previously constantly joined failing metas just go "Wow! That is so awesome, fun, etc." after they experience a win with an organized group (Again, I stress. With just basic organizing).

Edited December 24, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Firebeard.1746]

8 minutes ago, Ultramex.1506 said:

The "have to use lfg to win" complaints really made me scratch my head. Sorry havent we been doing that since Teq?

HoT lfg have 3-4 comms in the same map for what purpose? To get as many players as possible for each lane for each required mechanic, DE is just doing the same thing

"Require boon" this is what i would consider legit but i have said many times, just click on trait that give everyone boon no gears change needed

And this doesn't answer any of those questions above and repeats the idea that the rest of the community no longer doing it is just idiots.

However,  most buildsdon't give full boon duration by selecting the trait(s) alone, so if your group had high boon uptime, you were most likely being carried by someone else. I find that part of the discussion less interesting though than why most of the community doesn't find this fun and what they're supposedly missing that all of you are in on. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Firebeard.1746