Dragon's End is still massively overtuned and random

[yoni.7015]

16 minutes ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

The whole problem I'm putting upfront is the fact that you have to organize an lfg squad to guarantee it unlike every other meta save TT where being early enough in the map will mean the map will be full and it will clear.

There is nothing wrong with having one (!) meta event in the entire game where you have to organize a little bit and use the lfg. 
If that is too much for you, you can still do the 99% of other meta events in the game where you just have to auto attack. 
There should be a variety, even in open world content. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Hauwlyn.8051]

4 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

There is nothing wrong with having one (!) meta event in the entire game where you have to organize a little bit and use the lfg. 

Maybe if this game actually valued DPS throughout the solo content or put the LFG system upfront as an essential part of the experience from the get-go, that would be true. That ship has already sailed though.
Also you're downplaying the importance of this meta compared to the others. The story itself incentivizes you to play it through the quest description and an achievement tracking buff. Most players don't even know Serpents' Ire exists. Not all metas are promoted the same, nor do they lock up as much content being their completion.

[mandala.8507]

19 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

There is nothing wrong with having one (!) meta event in the entire game where you have to organize a little bit and use the lfg. 
If that is too much for you, you can still do the 99% of other meta events in the game where you just have to auto attack. 
There should be a variety, even in open world content. 

For what purpose? What are they protecting by keeping this content frustrating to clear for new, casual, and low-skill players? I'll tell you frankly: this content is not hard. It's ludicrously easy if you are even remotely skilled at this game. Open world just isn't composed of players who prioritize things like damage potential, build-craft, boon-sharing, etc. They are focused on progressing through the game at their own pace, exploring, and using skills they find useful or fun over optimal.

We are punishing these players for no other reason than to stroke our own egos and to promote the deluded notion that this will make players better at the game. And it isn't even to our benefit. I'd love to show up 10 minutes before this meta and just run it casually without being in a 50-man squad, sorting subgroups, etc. But right now, the timer prevents this from being a possibility. If the group forms late, if the organization isn't top-notch, if it seems like the dmg potential of the map is low or if the cc seems below par, you already know you're going to fail before the real fight even starts.

Players who care about running this map meta optimally can still do that even if the timer is increased. Nothing is stopping them. The only thing it stops them from doing is forcing others to do the same or be met with failure.

[Silent.6137]

34 minutes ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

Comparing it solely to other EoD metas is cherry picking because you're not comparing it to the actual popular metas like the HoT ones, and your analysis doesn't take in account the people who got into running DE all the time because the Antique Summoning Stone sold for a lot. Those prices for the statuette might go up in the future too if the stone keeps losing value. That is to say, you can throw plenty of hypothesis around, but this data is very far from conclusive, keep in mind the post you quoted wants us to consider the amount of people who are interested in the meta, not how dedicated the ones that do run it, which completely twists the metric that is the statuette.

It may seems like cherry picking but it is still a very good benchmark to use as a comparison. Aetherblade and Gang War metas are extremely popular. They are done daily and at every meta events. You use the phrase "the actual popular metas like the HoT ones", completely dismisses EoD metas out of hand and assumed they all do not fall into the popular category just because they're EoD metas.

By what metrics are you using to back up your claims? LFG? There are listings for HoT and those EoD ones at all events. Empty maps when you map onto during metas? It applies to every single meta. Players switch to meta maps and non-meta maps are deserted. HoT maps included (Go check it during meta events at HoT on a non-meta map if you doubt me).

Those data may not be conclusive but they are not irrelevant.

[yoni.7015]

5 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

For what purpose? What are they protecting by keeping this content frustrating to clear for new, casual, and low-skill players? I'll tell you frankly: this content is not hard. It's ludicrously easy if you are even remotely skilled at this game. Open world just isn't composed of players who prioritize things like damage potential, build-craft, boon-sharing, etc. They are focused on progressing through the game at their own pace, exploring, and using skills they find useful or fun over optimal.

We are punishing these players for no other reason than to stroke our own egos and to promote the deluded notion that this will make players better at the game. And it isn't even to our benefit. I'd love to show up 10 minutes before this meta and just run it casually without being in a 50-man squad, sorting subgroups, etc. But right now, the timer prevents this from being a possibility. If the group forms late, if the organization isn't top-notch, if it seems like the dmg potential of the map is low or if the cc seems below par, you already know you're going to fail before the real fight even starts.

Players who care about running this map meta optimally can still do that even if the timer is increased. Nothing is stopping them. The only thing it stops them from doing is forcing others to do the same or be met with failure.

Even new, casual and low skill players can clear the DE meta and they do, every day. 
I think it’s good that there is different content in open world. There are so many meta events if you want to show up ten minutes before start without being in a squad. Why can’t this one meta event be a bit different? It is the final meta event, it would be very disappointing if it would be a loot piñata like all the other meta events. 

[soul.9651]

4 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

Even new, casual and low skill players can clear the DE meta and they do, every day. 
I think it’s good that there is different content in open world. There are so many meta events if you want to show up ten minutes before start without being in a squad. Why can’t this one meta event be a bit different? It is the final meta event, it would be very disappointing if it would be a loot piñata like all the other meta events. 

Also i noticed how they like saying new player = casual player = low skill player. And thats just wrong, you can find a new player who enjoys some challenge in the gameplay and improves fast and you can also find a 10 year old veteran who is still refusing to improve and dragging everyone down, plus i can bet those veteran players are the loudest people on forums who are crying for what ever reasons they have.

[mandala.8507]

1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

Why can’t this one meta event be a bit different? It is the final meta event, it would be very disappointing if it would be a loot piñata like all the other meta events. 

Because it just so happens to be the best open world meta by far for reasons that have nothing to do with its difficulty, it is part of the golden path of the franchise's 10-year dragon story, it gatekeeps MAJOR collections and dialogue relevant to story and lore players who might not necessarily care about the combat side of the game, and it sets a terrible precedent for what open world content should look like and incentivize.

If the only reason you find it fun is because the timer is tight, you're just trying to gatekeep the content.

Already, the rate of failure of this event has significantly soured many players' impressions of the End of Dragons expansion. Why continue to let that be the case. Let more players enjoy the content. The timer being tight doesn't matter to anyone who isn't trying to feed a superiority complex.

[yoni.7015]

6 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Because it just so happens to be the best open world meta by far for reasons that have nothing to do with its difficulty, it is part of the golden path of the franchise's 10-year dragon story, it gatekeeps MAJOR collections and dialogue relevant to story and lore players who might not necessarily care about the combat side of the game, and it sets a terrible precedent for what open world content should look like and incentivize.

If the only reason you find it fun is because the timer is tight, you're just trying to gatekeep the content.

Already, the rate of failure of this event has significantly soured many players' impressions of the End of Dragons expansion. Why continue to let that be the case. Let more players enjoy the content. The timer being tight doesn't matter to anyone who isn't trying to feed a superiority complex.

The timer is not even a problem and it is not tight. Groups clear the meta usually with more than 6 minutes left on the timer. 

[mandala.8507]

2 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

The timer is not even a problem and it is not tight. Groups clear the meta usually with more than 6 minutes left on the timer. 

So you agree we can change the timer then? If it's not affecting you and I'm telling you it is affecting me and others, you'd be down for that change, no?

[Freya.9075]

Just now, mandala.8507 said:

So you agree we can change the timer then? If it's not affecting you and I'm telling you it is affecting me and others, you'd be down for that change, no?

Anet already tweaked the meta to the difficulty they want it to be. They have the statistics when it comes to success and failure. We do not. So if you’re unlucky with your squads in this meta as it is now, that’s not anets fault. That’s just bad luck. I have not had a failure in a very long time now. Be it through lfg or randomly going to the map and a commander is running it. 

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

If everyone did that, the completion rate would go down. I'm not saying this for some kind of moralistic appeal, whether you think it's fine or not to do it this way is your call, but the matters remain: if everyone did it, it would fail more.

Not if those mysteriously -but conveniently- vague "everyone" were able to pull their weight.

1 hour ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

Maybe if this game actually valued DPS throughout the solo content

I think currently the game does better job at having an actual difficulty curve than it did in the past. How would you go about that "actually valuing DPS throughout the solo(??) content"?

1 hour ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

or put the LFG system upfront as an essential part of the experience from the get-go, that would be true. That ship has already sailed though.

The game does put lfg system upfront, if you think otherwise you probably didn't even bothere reading what the game tells you when you leveled up or simply didn't care about grouping up for whatever reason, at which point... it's not exactly the game's fault, but more of a choice you're making. So no, nothing seem to have sailed.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Hindenburg.3415]

I did it one time to see what it's like.

It was long and unusually hard for gw2 meta  ( like TT only x2 )

And people here saying it was even harder ? Whoa

 

But I guess it's fine to have one such meta.

I mean all hot metas now can be done in 2 minutes. Total faceroll.

So having one more or less challenging event is fine  I guess.

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Hindenburg.3415

[Hauwlyn.8051]

28 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Not if those mysteriously -but conveniently- vague "everyone" were able to pull their weight.

Everyone.... involved? Was implying the "involved" part conveniently vague? Did you want me to include the Pope?
You're ignoring the part where I defend that casuals belong in this game and fund it. The whole point is that they want to play naturally. You're not gonna keep the game alive by forcefully trying to change the mindset the majority of the playerbase has. I understand the wishful thinking of hardcores on that front, because this game has long enabled leechers in hardcore content, but it's not realistically happening without killing the game.

 

33 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I think currently the game does better job at having an actual difficulty curve than it did in the past. How would you go about that "actually valuing DPS throughout the solo(??) content"?

Which part of EoD story or open world incentivizes doing high damage instead of playing it safe? Only this meta. Also HoT story & open world mobs are harder than EoD so I'm not sure what you're on about.

 

The only thing the game got slightly better at is teaching breakbars through that monastery heart in Seitung, probably since breakbars didn't exist when the game launch, and doing combos, but that part got you to do random combos rather than try to learn what the different combos do. Here's some really basic stuff that we could have: part of the interface, probably somewhere in the hero window, telling you what combos your current loadout can do. Between that absence and inaccurate tooltips when it comes to defiance bar damage, the game clearly isn't teaching much. And it's not like it does anything to keep the various kinds of animation cancelling anything but obscure. We're not in the early 2000s where that was the norm in MMOs

 

43 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The game does put lfg system upfront, if you think otherwise you probably didn't even bothere reading what the game tells you when you leveled up or simply didn't care about grouping up for whatever reason, at which point... it's not exactly the game's fault, but more of a choice you're making. So no, nothing seem to have sailed.

 

One reference to it in an ocean of tooltips is not "putting things upfront". LFG doesn't even have its own menu since its nested in the social one. Compare to FFXIV which has you go through LFG (and teaches you to) to do the group instances your story requires of you. Where you incidentally also can tell that your choice of class is supposed to be optimizing damage. Sure it's not like you can do much more than optimize your damage as a DPS in that boring combat system but still, they're making it obvious anyway.

 

Meanwhile GW2 requires you to go through the LFG to do open world content. In other MMOs you just go there at the right time and it happens, no LFG involved.

[Silent.6137]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

The timer being tight doesn't matter to anyone who isn't trying to feed a superiority complex.

 

1 hour ago, yoni.7015 said:

The timer is not even a problem and it is not tight. Groups clear the meta usually with more than 6 minutes left on the timer. 

Timer is only tight for less organized groups. I do think they should change the reward system to something like what I suggested:

On 12/17/2022 at 1:47 PM, Silent.6137 said:

• 0% remaining = 20 Minor chests (the number right now); 5% = 10; 10%  = 5. (No Major chests or Hero's Choice on fails)
• Change Dragon's End Contributor . Can still get the 10% from map events for the buffs but they will not count towards receiving the 10 Major chests. Escorts events required to receive them (5 events @ 2/event) and get 2% Dragon's End Contributor from each event. This will negate the necessity to do map events unless squad wishes to get the map readiness to High (takes about 25 mins from 0% to High readiness for the +5% Damage vs Dragonvoid).  And also prevent AFKers who gets the 10%, afk and just join during the last instances of the Temple top fights. This way, squads can just form for the main event only (takes about 40 mins total from Escort to final fights)

Or Extend the timers. Add 5 mins or even as much as 10 mins as a 2nd phase and if cleared, get the Hero's choice but only 5 Major and 10 Minor chests (as opposed to 10 & 20). That should give most map squads a very decent chance. And if still fail, just go do HoT meta instead. If map groups are unable to finish the Escorts within the current time, they really do not deserve to attempt the final fights. The Escort events scales rather well and can be easily completed by a handful of players at each lane.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Sobx.1758]

23 minutes ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

Everyone.... involved? Was implying the "involved" part conveniently vague? Did you want me to include the Pope?
You're ignoring the part where I defend that casuals belong in this game and fund it. The whole point is that they want to play naturally. You're not gonna keep the game alive by forcefully trying to change the mindset the majority of the playerbase has. I understand the wishful thinking of hardcores on that front, because this game has long enabled leechers in hardcore content, but it's not realistically happening without killing the game.

How is "everyone involved doing it" supposed to make the event fail more? Again, it would only do that if "everyone involved" aren't able to pull their weight. It's not like you need full stacks to do enough damage to succeed the event and pretty sure it's not even close.
I'm not ignoring that though, it just doesn't mean the whole game should be faceroll auto-succeeding content no matter what the players do. Isn't there enough easy content throughout the game already? You seem to be understanding there is, based on your previous post so I'm a bit confused about you still trying to go back to this notion how the one -latest- meta event in the game being harder is somehow supposed to make the game anti-casual or w/e. Adding some more demanding content, while not making the whole game inherently demanding only adds more goals and actual reason to improve/better understand at the game, it has nothing to do with -clear fearmongering attempt boiling down to nothing more than "do what I want or game ded" btw-  killing the game, not even close.

23 minutes ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

Which part of EoD story or open world incentivizes doing high damage instead of playing it safe? Only this meta. Also HoT story & open world mobs are harder than EoD so I'm not sure what you're on about.

Which part of it doesn't do that? Do you not understand the benefits of killing stuff faster? And why are you trying to single out EoD here?

23 minutes ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

The only thing the game got slightly better at is teaching breakbars through that monastery heart in Seitung, probably since breakbars didn't exist when the game launch, and doing combos, but that part got you to do random combos rather than try to learn what the different combos do. Here's some really basic stuff that we could have: part of the interface, probably somewhere in the hero window, telling you what combos your current loadout can do. Between that absence and inaccurate tooltips when it comes to defiance bar damage, the game clearly isn't teaching much. And it's not like it does anything to keep the various kinds of animation cancelling anything but obscure. We're not in the early 2000s where that was the norm in MMOs

Did you misunderstand the question or just avoided it? The question here was: How would you go about that "actually valuing DPS throughout the solo(??) content"? and from my understanding talking about how "they could show us list of combos ingame" or "the game explains breakbars" has nothing to do with it, right?

23 minutes ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

One reference to it in an ocean of tooltips is not "putting things upfront". LFG doesn't even have its own menu since its nested in the social one. Compare to FFXIV which has you go through LFG (and teaches you to) to do the group instances your story requires of you. Where you incidentally also can tell that your choice of class is supposed to be optimizing damage. Sure it's not like you can do much more than optimize your damage as a DPS in that boring combat system but still, they're making it obvious anyway.

 

Meanwhile GW2 requires you to go through the LFG to do open world content. In other MMOs you just go there at the right time and it happens, no LFG involved.

The game tells you about LFG pretty early in the game and "contacts and LFG" is a second icon in the game's bar right next to the settings. The game is putting it upfront, if someone isn't using it, it is because they don't care about reading what the game explains to them (just so they can then complain about stuff not being explained?) or because they simply don't want to use it.

I also find it interesting how you're talking about "ocean of tooltips" as a significant obstruction of information (that's what you mean by mentioning it here, right? Or am I missing your point about bringing it up?) right after saying the game should add more, even if only in the form of combo list. I guess having a rather clearly labeled "contacts and LFG" window is obstructing LFG, but adding the list of combos "probably somewhere in the hero window" would be perfectly fine. I don't know, that just looks like a bit of a double standard about what you consider as being an accessible information right out of the gate for me.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Hauwlyn.8051]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

How is "everyone involved doing it" supposed to make the event fail more?

Did you lose sight what the "doing" is? It's getting there late and not stacking the event buff. Which part of the thought process are you getting lost at?

 

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Again, it would only do that if "everyone involved" aren't able to pull their weight. It's not like you need full stacks to do enough damage to succeed the event and pretty sure it's not even close.

In this hypothetical scenario where everyone meets those standards, which we all know doesn't happen to this day. Assuming "pulling their weight" means "doing 1/50th of the total dps required to kill the boss". We all know even in runs with 8 minutes left there's plenty of people not doing that much and others are compensating for it, sometiimes greatly compensating. Nobody in this thread has even attempted to deny that. The whole thread is about whether or not people SHOULD be forced to try to that extent, whether or not the tuning is right and how to incentivize performance and getting more people interested in the meta with better incentives. No amount of "people should get good" is anything but repeating your stance without developping your points and thought process. We're well aware there's people with that opinion here, thank you.

 

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I'm not ignoring that though, it just doesn't mean the whole game should be faceroll auto-succeeding content no matter what the players do. Isn't there enough easy content throughout the game already? You seem to be understanding there is, based on your previous post so I'm a bit confused about you still trying to go back to this notion how the one -latest- meta event in the game being harder is somehow supposed to make the game anti-casual or w/e.

 

This meta is far above "faceroll auto-succeeding" and you know it. It's laughable compared to the hardest content in the game, and apart from HT CM it's not like this game ever released anything truly challenging to the hardcores, from memory. Could be wrong, but I don't see any other CM qualifying, I suppose your mileage may vary. As to how it's making the game anti casual, I did just tell you, having to go through LFG after the meta's reputation made it deserted enough that your random selection of people will include enough decent players. First off having to go through lfg even when your map is full is bad design, but if you picked an average squad from another meta and put it in Dragon's End, the total dps clearly show it would fail. How is that not anti casual? You know for a fact looking at your meter that the jump in DPS demanded of those octovine farmers is drastic. DE does work when you go through LFG, but only because most Octovine farmers aren't even attempting it anymore, even when the rewards were at their peak. What more proof do you need?

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Adding some more demanding content, while not making the whole game inherently demanding only adds more goals and actual reason to improve/better understand at the game, it has nothing to do with -clear fearmongering attempt boiling down to nothing more than "do what I want or game ded" btw-  killing the game, not even close.

 

You're trying to forcefully get the playerbase to get good, that's the unrealistic part as it will never happen for the simple reason that the devs aren't trying to get themselves out of a job. In the insane case where it does happen, yeah, the game would die. It's your premise that is totally unrealistic, not my estimation of the consequences of it, and that's what this whole point is about: noone is gonna make GW2 a hardcore game, that would be extremely silly, you're just calling that fearmongering to misrepresent my argument. Only someone with abyssmal reading comprehension would genuinely see that as fearmongering.

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Which part of it doesn't do that? Do you not understand the benefits of killing stuff faster?

I do, do you not understand the benefits of playing it safe or are you gonna deny the very existence of stuff like how many bearbow rangers there are out there?

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And why are you trying to single out EoD here?

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I think currently the game does better job at having an actual difficulty curve than it did in the past.

The only thing that currently changed and therefore affected the difficulty curve is EoD released. I don't see how the new specs would have suddenly improved the difficulty curve towards your standard of "carrying one's own weight", especially considering we got bearbow 2.0 with mechanist, so the only thing left that changed would have been the new story. Do tell me what i'm missing that "currently makes the game do a better job at having an actual difficulty curve". I noted you use of "currently" so I'm naturally opposing it to "previously". Now who's actually being vague?

 

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

How would you go about that "actually valuing DPS throughout the solo(??) content"?

 

1 hour ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

Where you incidentally also can tell that your choice of class is supposed to be optimizing damage. Sure it's not like you can do much more than optimize your damage as a DPS in that boring combat system but still, they're making it obvious anyway.

See, the thing is, FFXIV is hooking you to the story ASAP and then getting you into group content where you're told you're a DPS. They also have tutorials litterally having you kill stuff before they kill NPCs though, so there's that. A mechanic you can actually implement in solo content, turns out. Also a principle called a "DPS check", though it can be flavored in many various and new ways. Thanks for insisting on the question when I went on a tangent though, the answer was so obvious I figured you were arguing in bad faith willfulling ignoring the obvious despite being experienced enough to carry your weight. My bad.

 

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The game tells you about LFG pretty early in the game and "contacts and LFG" is a second icon in the game's bar right next to the settings. The game is putting it upfront, if someone isn't using it, it is because they don't care about reading what the game explains to them (just so they can then complain about stuff not being explained?) or because they simply don't want to use it.

See, the thing with living in echo chambers is that what seems obvious to you might not be to other communities, notably
"casual players", because I lost count of how many times I had to reintroduce the LFG to a newbie. Or tell them they're supposed to use it to guarantee their success in open world, which is probably exclusive to this game, something you're making me rephrase once more. Now you can think that's them not putting the effort, but when they have no idea of its very existence you're basically asking them to find their way home when they're stuck in the middle of a desert. They don't even know where to start, which way to go.

 

 

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

 

I also find it interesting how you're talking about "ocean of tooltips" as a significant obstruction of information (that's what you mean by mentioning it here, right? Or am I missing your point about bringing it up?) right after saying the game should add more, even if only in the form of combo list. I guess having a rather clearly labeled "contacts and LFG" window is obstructing LFG, but adding the list of combos "probably somewhere in the hero window" would be perfectly fine. I don't know, that just looks like a bit of a double standard about what you consider as being an accessible information right out of the gate for me.

 

LFG is an essential tool to do even open world content in this game. Combos are optimization, so they do not remotely belong on the same level of visibility and awareness.

Oh, and the ocean of tooltips refers to the massive info dump you get one level after another, in a game where leveling is very quick. It's foolish to expect such information retention for every detail, and considering the LFG is only truly relevant at max level, at least to the many people who skip over dungeons, they're probably gonna retain the stuff they use right now rather than the stuff they're gonna need much later. The real reason experienced gamers know about the LFG is because someone told them, hence the game failed at teaching them, or they imported the knowledge from another game.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Hauwlyn.8051

[Sobx.1758]

12 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

Did you lose sight what the "doing" is? It's getting there late and not stacking the event buff. Which part of the thought process are you getting lost at?

I'm not lost about anything here, not sure why you think I am? It was about joining for escorts, by completing escorts you get... 5 stacks of the buff?

Not only that, but in the very next part you've quoted I wrote this: "How is "everyone involved doing it" supposed to make the event fail more? Again, it would only do that if "everyone involved" aren't able to pull their weight. It's not like you need full stacks to do enough damage to succeed the event and pretty sure it's not even close."  -What do you think I meant by writing about "full stacks" and "doing enouhg damage" if not that? The only thing I'm "lost" about here is how you've started questioning my ability to follow the context of these responses, pretty much right where I clearly write about "stacks" and "enough damage to succeed the event".

In other words: no, I am pretty clearly not lost what it is about, seeing how I specifically wrote about it in the very post you've just quoted.

12 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

In this hypothetical scenario where everyone meets those standards, which we all know doesn't happen to this day. Assuming "pulling their weight" means "doing 1/50th of the total dps required to kill the boss". We all know even in runs with 8 minutes left there's plenty of people not doing that much and others are compensating for it, sometiimes greatly compensating. Nobody in this thread has even attempted to deny that. The whole thread is about whether or not people SHOULD be forced to try to that extent, whether or not the tuning is right and how to incentivize performance and getting more people interested in the meta with better incentives. No amount of "people should get good" is anything but repeating your stance without developping your points and thought process. We're well aware there's people with that opinion here, thank you.

How is you describing "people not doing enough and other compensating for it" supposed to change anything about my mention of "people needing to pull their weight"? What point are you trying to make here? That people shouldn't try to improve and instead be entitled to slack to rewards on other players' backs or the event bad?

How to incentivize performance? Well, it sure ISN'T endlessly nerfing every event that -for a change- requires some degree of acceptable performance in the first place. And make no mistake, that's all it is, you don't need full stacks of DE-specific damage modifier nor some optimal gameplay for it to be enough. If you truly believe this is a discussion about "how to incentivize performance" then you should know/understand "not requiring performance" isn't the answer here.

12 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

This meta is far above "faceroll auto-succeeding" and you know it. It's laughable compared to the hardest content in the game, and apart from HT CM it's not like this game ever released anything truly challenging to the hardcores, from memory. Could be wrong, but I don't see any other CM qualifying, I suppose your mileage may vary. As to how it's making the game anti casual, I did just tell you, having to go through LFG after the meta's reputation made it deserted enough that your random selection of people will include enough decent players. First off having to go through lfg even when your map is full is bad design, but if you picked an average squad from another meta and put it in Dragon's End, the total dps clearly show it would fail. How is that not anti casual? You know for a fact looking at your meter that the jump in DPS demanded of those octovine farmers is drastic. DE does work when you go through LFG, but only because most Octovine farmers aren't even attempting it anymore, even when the rewards were at their peak. What more proof do you need?

I didn't say this event is "faceroll auto-succeeding", I said there's plenty of those already in the game. Is it "far above"? Not sure, but currently it is above it and that's the point. I also fail to see how using lfg is somehow supposed to be bad for the game at all, let alone how you arrived at the conclusion that "opening a lfg window and clicking on a join squad button" somehow goes against the casual gameplay. And btw, lets make it clear that going through lfg is not required here either, but it sure increases your odds of getting at least a semi-organized squad, which will increase the success rate, duh. Once again though, I fail to see how any of that is bad or anti casual.

12 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

You're trying to forcefully get the playerbase to get good, that's the unrealistic part as it will never happen for the simple reason that the devs aren't trying to get themselves out of a job. In the insane case where it does happen, yeah, the game would die. It's your premise that is totally unrealistic, not my estimation of the consequences of it, and that's what this whole point is about: noone is gonna make GW2 a hardcore game, that would be extremely silly, you're just calling that fearmongering to misrepresent my argument. Only someone with abyssmal reading comprehension would genuinely see that as fearmongering.

No, I am not "trying to focefully get the playerbase to get good", it's just giving the opportunity and a reason to improve the understanding of the game. And don't confuse "improving understanding of the game" with some sort of "meta/optimal gameplay" because that's not it. Didn't you literally just listed the incentives to increase performance as one of the goals of this thread/discussion? (yes, yes you did: "whether or not the tuning is right and how to incentivize performance and getting more people interested in the meta with better incentives").

I'm seriously confused why you're even writing things like "But I guess it's fine to have one such meta." or the more recent "how to incentivize performance" when you're still going back to calling it "forcing player to do x" or calling what I said "unrealistic". How else do you think you'll incentivize performance? By NOT having events requiring any performance because it forces players to perform and that's unrealistic? 😐 

And lets be clear about what I called fearmongering (if somehow it wasn't clear before?): "...but it's not realistically happening without killing the game." -this is still nothing more than fearmongering. Duh, that event is very much in the game now and it's not even somehow the hardest thing we have access to and yet... Game not dead or dying. So what else is it if not just baseless fearmongering to get it your way (...or the game will die!)? What exactly am I "not comprehending" from what you wrote in your previous post?

12 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

I do, do you not understand the benefits of playing it safe or are you gonna deny the very existence of stuff like how many bearbow rangers there are out there?

So if you understand there are reasons to get "a" (play safer) and do "b" (go for damage) then not sure why you're claiming the game doesn't incentivize going for high damage. Why are you writing something about bearbows here? Did I say anything about safer gameplay not being a thing? On the other hand, when someone plays that safe, slow bearwhateverbuild to slowly smack mob after mob, but then they see properly utilized dps builds with better use of active defenses mowing through the mobs... Do you think those "safer players" somehow still don't understand the reason to go for more damage? Does "if you deal more damage, stuff dies a lot faster!" really need to be spelled out on their screens?

12 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

See, the thing is, FFXIV is hooking you to the story ASAP and then getting you into group content where you're told you're a DPS. They also have tutorials litterally having you kill stuff before they kill NPCs though, so there's that. A mechanic you can actually implement in solo content, turns out. Also a principle called a "DPS check", though it can be flavored in many various and new ways. Thanks for insisting on the question when I went on a tangent though, the answer was so obvious I figured you were arguing in bad faith willfulling ignoring the obvious despite being experienced enough to carry your weight. My bad.

So more or less the equivalent of "kill this in x time to proceed"? Yes, I'm all for it and pretty sure that idea also popped up in other thread/s in the past (I think it was particularly about letting people into DE map, to give them the idea about what the "ok-ish" dps even is). I asked that question because I was interested how you see this particular topic and what -in your opinion- would be a good step to take here. If I understood you correctly, I think we're on the same page about this one.

12 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

See, the thing with living in echo chambers is that what seems obvious to you might not be to other communities, notably
"casual players", because I lost count of how many times I had to reintroduce the LFG to a newbie. Or tell them they're supposed to use it to guarantee their success in open world, which is probably exclusive to this game, something you're making me rephrase once more. Now you can think that's them not putting the effort, but when they have no idea of its very existence you're basically asking them to find their way home when they're stuck in the middle of a desert. They don't even know where to start, which way to go.

But it's obvious to me not because I'm somehow in an echo chamber. It's because, as already explained, the game literally tells you about lfg when you level up. There's no guesswork involved, if someone ignores it, they ignore it because they don't care, don't want to read or w/e else. It's not because the game doesn't show it to them or because it's hidden/hard to access. Pretty sure that's exactly what I was already saying?

Also... doesn't "I had to reintroduce some players to LFG" just show that those players didn't read/care when the game told it about lfg? Pretty sure that's mostly what it shows and not that it's somehow hidden or need to be actively looked for to learn about it.

12 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

LFG is an essential tool to do even open world content in this game. Combos are optimization, so they do not remotely belong on the same level of visibility and awareness.

So first you write lfg would need to be essential and it isn't, so this ship has sailed: "Maybe if this game actually valued DPS throughout the solo content or put the LFG system upfront as an essential part of the experience from the get-go, that would be true. That ship has already sailed though." as well as say that using lfg shouldn't be required for anyone, but now... you're saying LFG is an essential tool to do even open world content in this game? So which one is it? And again, the players are informed about lfg at the early levels of their playthrough as well as they have group content to utilize said lfg.

12 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

and considering the LFG is only truly relevant at max level, at least to the many people who skip over dungeons

Ah, so I see you corrected yourself right in the very same sentence. You understand when and why lfg is introduced. So lets repeat it once again: when the player wants to skip over lfg/group content, it's not because the game didn't inform them about it.

12 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

The real reason experienced gamers know about the LFG is because someone told them, hence the game failed at teaching them, or they imported the knowledge from another game.

lol, where is this conclusion even supposed to be coming from? The game pops a window in the middle of your screen to tell you about lfg. Players know about lfg because it's clear what/where it is, not because you think it's some mystical knowledge passed over between the players. Like... wow.

 

 

 e:  tbh this is getting a bit long, I think we need to make some serious cuts in here to get more to the point 😄

Edited December 19, 2022 by Sobx.1758
missed a word

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

 

5 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

So you agree we can change the timer then? If it's not affecting you and I'm telling you it is affecting me and others, you'd be down for that change, no?

Amen 😛

Thankfully they will fully aware , so normal  Strikes have not timer .

 

(i hapilly would place the OW timer in the normal Srikes , if this means we dont have have an OW timer + have to speak to raiders telling us to do moar dps , xaxax

Next time that they tell us to use LI builds , we should ask them " how many days this spec will exist before the raiders asked to be nerfed  like Mechanist" , xaaxaxax) . Thankfully the majority of the  community have learned this lesson , and doent go near the LI threads in reddit .

Edited December 19, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Linken.6345]

23 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

 

Amen 😛

Thankfully they will fully aware , so normal  Strikes have not timer .

 

(i hapilly would place the OW timer in the normal Srikes , if this means we dont have have an OW timer + have to speak to raiders telling us to do moar dps , xaxax

Next time that they tell us to use LI builds , we should ask them " how many days this spec will exist before the raiders asked to be nerfed  like Mechanist" , xaaxaxax) . Thankfully the majority of the  community have learned this lesson , and doent go near the LI threads in reddit .

Man you crack me up with your wild swings far left or right on every thread your in that got nothing to do with the converstation going on.

Keep it up buddy I need my laughs to live longer.

[Juan.6124]

Think about this: people could save over a minute by doing the green mechanic correctly. There is no rng involved, yet it never succeeds. The goal of that mechanic is to return to the top of the tower and get your body back.

Also guys, the fight is 10 months old. Stop getting stomped by Soo-Won..... Boons are pretty good as well.

I killed it many times by just tagging up, using lfg while asking for boons and putting people into subgroups.  

Edited December 19, 2022 by DirtyDan.4759

[Dreams.3128]

I seem to be recalling people making this same exact argument for the Modremoth fight for..months in fact. Same issue, same argument, same complaint about it being too demanding, and now it is one of the easiest fights to do after all of the class powercreep and understanding mechanics. I swear I feel like the community simply repeats its history over and over again every time Anet implements something that makes the player actually work and not feel like some overpowered hero that can one shot everything.

[Exo.2143]

All I am gonna say is: it is relatively easily organised getting quickness and alacrity groups (people already put themselves in the groups for that), and people gotta dodge big red circles. My one or two fails I have had since EoD launch all came because of either low dps, not dodging the slam but let's face it: mostly a combination of the two.

 

It's good that there is atleast 1 challenging meta in this game. Find it too hard? Probably not just your fault if it's even your fault, but the fault of the majority that seems to not be responding to mechanics or having no idea how to actually use your class. Again, in general.

[Mungrul.9358]

Personally, I still think all of the major complaints with Dragon's End could be solved by extracting it from the open world and treating it more like Dragon Storm.

[The Boz.2038]

Let's not tune this until the very possibility of failure is deleted, mmkay?

[yoni.7015]

39 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Let's not tune this until the very possibility of failure is deleted, mmkay?

Some will not be satisfied until it becomes another loot piñata, without any challenge or difficulty.