Dragon's End is still massively overtuned and random

[mandala.8507]

Translation of all the people arguing against further adjustments to this fight: "It's important we have some fights people aren't allowed to enjoy at their current investment level on the golden path. It doesn't matter that there are important collections and lore locked behind it, the game needs to ostracize certain players on purpose or else I won't enjoy it. The only thing I actually find fun about this meta is that some people struggle with it if they don't put in extra effort, despite them not wanting to and most likely just leaving the content for good after their first few fails. I'd rather no one play it than it be enjoyable for everyone."

Nothing about the fight is challenging if you know what you're doing. Organizing the map is just an added hassle that pushes away players who don't want to take that next step into understanding organized group content just to enjoy parts of the game that shouldn't even engage with the culture around those systems in the first place.

The truth is, they know they can't force players to do this if it isn't a requirement to get successful runs, and so they want to keep it a requirement. It's entirely self-serving. The timer being tight doesn't make the fight any better and having it not be tight doesn't make it any worse. It's a ridiculous sentiment that the timer makes the fight good or bad.

The reward for organizing better is you'll be on the map for 20-30 minutes less than the groups that don't. Right now, the meta is an all-or-nothing gamble to take on with groups of players you don't know. That isn't fun for anyone. It's why I don't do the meta myself and I'm easily in the top 1% of players in this game when it comes to combat proficiency.

If they wanted this fight to be an added challenge that not everyone could tackle, they shouldn't have locked so much stuff behind it. It's that simple. They made getting a clear of this fight too important without considering that the majority of their playerbase doesn't care if the fight is hard.

The lesson learned should be not to lock unrelated content behind content you want to be more difficult. The solution should be to let people get the clear successfully more often by increasing the allotted time to take the final boss down.

People in this thread have already admitted they don't think the timer is tight and that it apparently doesn't matter, so change it.

[Taclism.2406]

I don't think its too hard but I'm still for nerfing it
Those who can do it on a regular basis don't want to / are done with it
Those who want to do it find it too hard.
So DE is effectively for no one but the few that want more than 5 ancient sum stone  a week. Be smart and fix it before s6 / exp4 if you dont want that meta to become as dead as serpent ire

Edited December 19, 2022 by Taclism.2406

[Sobx.1758]

45 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Translation of all the people arguing against further adjustments to this fight: "It's important we have some fights people aren't allowed to enjoy at their current investment level on the golden path. It doesn't matter that there are important collections and lore locked behind it, the game needs to ostracize certain players on purpose or else I won't enjoy it. The only thing I actually find fun about this meta is that some people struggle with it if they don't put in extra effort, despite them not wanting to and most likely just leaving the content for good after their first few fails. I'd rather no one play it than it be enjoyable for everyone."'

Really? That's what you want to do here? Ok then, translation of all the people arguing to further nerf the event: I just want to show up, press whatever (or not press, how dare you forcing me to do stuff?!) and get rewards no matter what.

Good new though, there's a type of games that will do it! Bad(??) news: it's called "autoclicker/idle game", not "action mmorpg".

45 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Nothing about the fight is challenging if you know what you're doing.

Ah, so you understand the players mostly require "understanding of what they're doing" in order to complete the event. And yet... here you are, arguing as if it's somehow a bad/huge requirement because what exactly? Because new players can't beeline into literally the latest meta event which is also a culmination point of the 10 years of existance of the game and simply succeed it by default? Tbh I struggle to see what point you think you're making with saying this here.

45 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

Organizing the map is just an added hassle that pushes away players who don't want to take that next step into understanding organized group content just to enjoy parts of the game that shouldn't even engage with the culture around those systems in the first place.

The truth is, they know they can't force players to do this if it isn't a requirement to get successful runs, and so they want to keep it a requirement. It's entirely self-serving. The timer being tight doesn't make the fight any better and having it not be tight doesn't make it any worse. It's a ridiculous sentiment that the timer makes the fight good or bad.

The reward for organizing better is you'll be on the map for 20-30 minutes less than the groups that don't. Right now, the meta is an all-or-nothing gamble to take on with groups of players you don't know. That isn't fun for anyone. It's why I don't do the meta myself and I'm easily in the top 1% of players in this game when it comes to combat proficiency.

If they wanted this fight to be an added challenge that not everyone could tackle, they shouldn't have locked so much stuff behind it. It's that simple. They made getting a clear of this fight too important without considering that the majority of their playerbase doesn't care if the fight is hard.

The lesson learned should be not to lock unrelated content behind content you want to be more difficult. The solution should be to let people get the clear successfully more often by increasing the allotted time to take the final boss down.

Lock what stuff?

45 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

People in this thread have already admitted they don't think the timer is tight and that it apparently doesn't matter, so change it.

As you said it yourself: if people understand what they're doing. Which isn't exactly a steep requirement for the last meta event of the game. So no, don't change it.

[mandala.8507]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Lock what stuff?

So, you don't understand the foundation of my argument to make the fight simpler to clear, yet still you choose to say I'm wrong? Interesting.

[Hashberry.4510]

Mmo’s man. Its not enough to do well, others have to do poorly, or the heroic effort is wasted. Smh.

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

So, you don't understand the foundation of my argument to make the fight simpler to clear, yet still you choose to say I'm wrong? Interesting.

So you can't just clarify by quickly responding to the question, but instead make a snarky remark while using it as a pretext to completely avoid everything I wrote. Alrightly, tbh for now it seems that's all the "explanation" needed here.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[mandala.8507]

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

So you can't just clarify by quickly responding to the question, but instead make a snarky remark while using it as a pretext to completely avoid everything I wrote. Alrightly, tbh for now it seems that's all the "explanation" needed here.

Nah, it's just clear from your responses you don't have the desire to engage in a discussion. Why waste my breathe on someone who's going to jump through every problematic hoop possible to convince themselves they're right.

I understand the arguments for having harder content in the appropriate places for gw2. This is not a case of a place that was appropriate to make the content harder. You wouldn't need me to explain "what stuff" if you were reading the this thread with the intent of understanding people's positions and putting forth valid counterpoints to them. You're not.

Have a good one.

[Hauwlyn.8051]

12 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I'm not lost about anything here, not sure why you think I am? It was about joining for escorts, by completing escorts you get... 5 stacks of the buff?

Not only that, but in the very next part you've quoted I wrote this: "How is "everyone involved doing it" supposed to make the event fail more? Again, it would only do that if "everyone involved" aren't able to pull their weight. It's not like you need full stacks to do enough damage to succeed the event and pretty sure it's not even close."  -What do you think I meant by writing about "full stacks" and "doing enouhg damage" if not that? The only thing I'm "lost" about here is how you've started questioning my ability to follow the context of these responses, pretty much right where I clearly write about "stacks" and "enough damage to succeed the event".

In other words: no, I am pretty clearly not lost what it is about, seeing how I specifically wrote about it in the very post you've just quoted.

In this theoretical world where everyone was able to pull their weight, yes, the event isn't even close with 5 stacks of the buff. In reality even current LFG squads have plenty of people who don't carry their weight after so many gave up on that meta. Hence why everyone losing a 15% damage buff will certainly reduce their chances. Stop talking about this hypothetical scenario where all those involved would be hardcore and start taking a look at the reality of it. I'm sure in this fictional universe where everything is as you want it you make plenty of points.

 

12 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

How is you describing "people not doing enough and other compensating for it" supposed to change anything about my mention of "people needing to pull their weight"? What point are you trying to make here? That people shouldn't try to improve and instead be entitled to slack to rewards on other players' backs or the event bad?

Yes, actually, even if you present it in the worst way you can, that's exactly what open world is, and has always been in every MMO there ever was. If you don't like it, might I suggest not involving yourself in open world and trying to take it away from the casuals?

 

12 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

How to incentivize performance? Well, it sure ISN'T endlessly nerfing every event that -for a change- requires some degree of acceptable performance in the first place

Tell me right now off the top of your head how many open world events that needed some degree of acceptable performance have been nerfed in recent times, since it happens "endlessly" there must be plenty. Personally DE is the only one I can think of that's any "recent" and even plenty of hardcores thought things like reducing RNG was easily justified.

 

12 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I didn't say this event is "faceroll auto-succeeding", I said there's plenty of those already in the game. Is it "far above"? Not sure, but currently it is above it and that's the point.

 

I completely agree that it should be harder than the other metas, and I don't think anyone claims it should be exactly as easy as any other meta. You should actually try to gauge how much more demanding it is, since the whole topic is tuning it right, hence the words "massively overtuned", how else do you expect to give relevant feedback?

13 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

So first you write lfg would need to be essential and it isn't, so this ship has sailed: "Maybe if this game actually valued DPS throughout the solo content or put the LFG system upfront as an essential part of the experience from the get-go, that would be true. That ship has already sailed though." as well as say that using lfg shouldn't be required for anyone, but now... you're saying LFG is an essential tool to do even open world content in this game? So which one is it?

What do you not understand about my statements that LFG IS required to optimize your chances even in open world, but really shouldn't? It's not necessary for most metas if you're early enough on the map, but it is for DE or if you arrive just on time, unless you get lucky, hence "optimize your chances".  What do you not get? Is it the part where open world events are succesful organically in every other MMO all the time compared to this one where you have to LFG to make sure?

 

13 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And again, the players are informed about lfg at the early levels of their playthrough as well as they have group content to utilize said lfg.

 

15 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

massive info dump you get one level after another, in a game where leveling is very quick.

 

15 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

the many people who skip over dungeons,

 

15 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

they do not remotely belong on the same level of visibility and awareness.

 

15 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

I lost count of how many times I had to reintroduce the LFG to a newbie.

 

13 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, I am not "trying to focefully get the playerbase to get good", it's just giving the opportunity and a reason to improve the understanding of the game.

If that reason locks a ton of content behind it that those people were interested in, it's forceful and it's them getting good. You're just trying to frame it with different words. Uncharacteristic of you since thus far you didn't mince your words. Did you know changing tone like that in the middle of an argument is characteristic of arguing in bad faith?

 

13 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

There's no guesswork involved, if someone ignores it, they ignore it because they don't care, don't want to read or w/e else.

 

15 hours ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

massive info dump you get one level after another, in a game where leveling is very quick. It's foolish to expect such information retention for every detail, and considering the LFG is only truly relevant at max level, at least to the many people who skip over dungeons, they're probably gonna retain the stuff they use right now rather than the stuff they're gonna need much later. The real reason experienced gamers know about the LFG is because someone told them, hence the game failed at teaching them, or they imported the knowledge from another game.

 

13 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, I am not "trying to focefully get the playerbase to get good", it's just giving the opportunity and a reason to improve the understanding of the game. And don't confuse "improving understanding of the game" with some sort of "meta/optimal gameplay" because that's not it. Didn't you literally just listed the incentives to increase performance as one of the goals of this thread/discussion? (yes, yes you did: "whether or not the tuning is right and how to incentivize performance and getting more people interested in the meta with better incentives").

I'm seriously confused why you're even writing things like "But I guess it's fine to have one such meta." or the more recent "how to incentivize performance" when you're still going back to calling it "forcing player to do x" or calling what I said "unrealistic". How else do you think you'll incentivize performance? By NOT having events requiring any performance because it forces players to perform and that's unrealistic? 😐 

blablabla extremes, nuance, matter of tuning, repeating myself.

 

13 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

And lets be clear about what I called fearmongering (if somehow it wasn't clear before?): "...but it's not realistically happening without killing the game." -this is still nothing more than fearmongering. Duh, that event is very much in the game now and it's not even somehow the hardest thing we have access to and yet... Game not dead or dying. So what else is it if not just baseless fearmongering to get it your way (...or the game will die!)? What exactly am I "not comprehending" from what you wrote in your previous post?

I'm saying if the devs were crazy enough to keep alienating the casuals who never wanted to get better, like you're trying to do, the game would die, hence it won't happen because the devs aren't that atrocious at meeting the needs of their playerbase. That's pure logic and just a way to show how far in cuckooland your hypothesis even is. Anyone who would have the slightest worry or fear reaction out of that statement has either terrible reading comprehension or is also living so far in their own bubble that I can't possibly begin to predict what they'll think, hence there's no intent to provoke fear, hence it's not fearmongering. Can't make it more obvious than that.

 

13 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

So if you understand there are reasons to get "a" (play safer) and do "b" (go for damage) then not sure why you're claiming the game doesn't incentivize going for high damage. Why are you writing something about bearbows here? Did I say anything about safer gameplay not being a thing? On the other hand, when someone plays that safe, slow bearwhateverbuild to slowly smack mob after mob, but then they see properly utilized dps builds with better use of active defenses mowing through the mobs... Do you think those "safer players" somehow still don't understand the reason to go for more damage? Does "if you deal more damage, stuff dies a lot faster!" really need to be spelled out on their screens?

You're just projecting here. I like killing things faster, you clearly like killing things faster, they don't. Yes, any casual who's ever come across a hardcore in open world knows thet they kill kitten faster. Clearly if this is the only incentive to do more damage, the "natural" one in any game with health bars, then it wasn't enough to change their mind this whole time. It's too stressful to them to learn how to do that and they figured a long time ago that playing it safe feels better to them. If there were more, actually designed for incentives to do more damage while staying in a ballpark that seems realistic to them, maybe some of them would change their minds and play in a way that helps them do more dps.

 

13 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Also... doesn't "I had to reintroduce some players to LFG" just show that those players didn't read/care when the game told it about lfg?

This is a game they pay for to entertain themselves in various ways, not some kind of homework, if they want to skip over some info that gets dropped at the same time as so much more info that's more immediately relevant, not only is it fine for them not to focus too hard on it, but that's implying all of them would retain this even if they tried to focus so hard. Try to teach this game to someone who has basically no experience with MMOs or RPGs, you'll see how much info they forget that became second nature to you a long time ago, even if you do it with someone you thought had a good memory.

 

13 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

So first you write lfg would need to be essential and it isn't, so this ship has sailed: "Maybe if this game actually valued DPS throughout the solo content or put the LFG system upfront as an essential part of the experience from the get-go, that would be true. That ship has already sailed though." as well as say that using lfg shouldn't be required for anyone, but now... you're saying LFG is an essential tool to do even open world content in this game? So which one is it? And again, the players are informed about lfg at the early levels of their playthrough as well as they have group content to utilize said lfg.

 

13 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Ah, so I see you corrected yourself right in the very same sentence. You understand when and why lfg is introduced. So lets repeat it once again: when the player wants to skip over lfg/group content, it's not because the game didn't inform them about it.

 

13 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

lol, where is this conclusion even supposed to be coming from? The game pops a window in the middle of your screen to tell you about lfg. Players know about lfg because it's clear what/where it is, not because you think it's some mystical knowledge passed over between the players. Like... wow.

Either you're completely incapable of putting yourself in someone else's shoes, or you believe humans have perfect perception, treat every information on a conscious level and have perfect memory.

 

3 hours ago, Mungrul.9358 said:

Personally, I still think all of the major complaints with Dragon's End could be solved by extracting it from the open world and treating it more like Dragon Storm.

Absolutely agree. move all the OW stuff stuck behind it somewhere else and make it instanced content, at which point you can make it twice as hard and it will be fine. Still doesn't belong in OW though.

 

3 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Let's not tune this until the very possibility of failure is deleted, mmkay?

No, but let's tune it until everyone who deserted it comes back and it would THEN only occasionally fail a bit more than other metas. You know, a point at which you think you can actually carry it with a random group of 50 open world players, unless you get very unlucky on that selection of players.

[Hauwlyn.8051]

46 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Really? That's what you want to do here? Ok then, translation of all the people arguing to further nerf the event: I just want to show up, press whatever (or not press, how dare you forcing me to do stuff?!) and get rewards no matter what.

Good new though, there's a type of games that will do it! Bad(??) news: it's called "autoclicker/idle game", not "action mmorpg".

Ah, so you understand the players mostly require "understanding of what they're doing" in order to complete the event. And yet... here you are, arguing as if it's somehow a bad/huge requirement because what exactly? Because new players can't beeline into literally the latest meta event which is also a culmination point of the 10 years of existance of the game and simply succeed it by default? Tbh I struggle to see what point you think you're making with saying this here.

Lock what stuff?

As you said it yourself: if people understand what they're doing. Which isn't exactly a steep requirement for the last meta event of the game. So no, don't change it.

Yeah, your stance is that people should improve, and the majority of the playerbase who joined when this game got the reputation of a casual MMO don't want to improve. They were fine with giving up on hardcore endgame content and just enjoy their routine in open world, but the demands of some unsatiable hardcores made it so the hardcore content treaded on their ground, and they're unhappy about it. That's it. Stop trying to force anyone to put in effort just because that is your way of playing the game. Accept that casual gaming is a thing on its own and not just a step towards eventually becoming hardcore, and that it's essential to this game.

[vares.8457]

21 minutes ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

You know, a point at which you think you can actually carry it with a random group of 50 open world players, unless you get very unlucky on that selection of players.

But why? Why not have one event that is a bit different than the rest? 
There are open world players that want a little bit more challenge. Why not have one event in the whole game for them?

Why does this trigger you so much?

Edited December 19, 2022 by vares.8457

[Hauwlyn.8051]

8 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

But why? Why not have one event that is a bit different than the rest?

If you bothered to read, you'd see I do want it to be "a bit different", as in a bit harder, you're downplaying just how much harder it is. Ironic that you stand on the side of people who want others to do more effort and yuo don't put that same effort into a simple forum thread.

 

11 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

There are open world players that want a little bit more challenge. Why not have one event in the whole game for them?

 

Even if they want to do it in open world, there's plenty of mostly abandonned events that are fun to solo. They can try soloing bounties for example, that's clearly harder than metas. But if they want more challenge, why not go where it's found and start by progressing in fractals? The reason that level of challenge doesn't belong in open world is that open world creates an instance with a completely random set of people with which you may interact in many ways. If one such ways happens often and is "they made this event fail by not being good enough", that's on the devs, not on the players. The very fact you need your squad to manipulate the system into having your own instance means this is just instanced content with extra steps.

[Cuks.8241]

1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said:

The reward for organizing better is you'll be on the map for 20-30 minutes less than the groups that don't. Right now, the meta is an all-or-nothing gamble to take on with groups of players you don't know. That isn't fun for anyone. It's why I don't do the meta myself and I'm easily in the top 1% of players in this game when it comes to combat proficiency.

If you are top 1% you should be able to carry 5 other players if they do nothing at all, just stand there. One or 2 more if you go through the hassle of getting the map buffs. If they do half their job, which is almost impossible not to do unless they truly are afk, you really shouldnt be failing at all by today's meta standards. I dont see meta failing anymore anyway. I do it about once per week, just yesterday did it with a random group that formed ~ 20 min before start (many didnt have the full buff) and we cleared it with 5+ mins to spare.

21 minutes ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

No, but let's tune it until everyone who deserted it comes back and it would THEN only occasionally fail a bit more than other metas. You know, a point at which you think you can actually carry it with a random group of 50 open world players, unless you get very unlucky on that selection of players.

I would say the meta is already at that point difficulty wise. If my win rate in the first weeks was about 50 % and it usually meant failure with complete random group and win with organised group. Now I dont remember the last time I failed. It has been months. I do join a well known meta train often but I also do it on a whim with random group about as often. The problem is and always was time commitment if you go for map buffs.

DPS or CC was never the problem with this meta. Yeah its tighter than usual but its still very relaxed. The problem was always people dying to mechanics and low dps was just a consequence. In the first month people were all over platform, dying left and right, didnt know what to do. Today most people know what to do. And even if the dps is not the best and CC is not there (just had a group like that yesterday, at release that group would fail) meta is cleared with plenty minutes just because people dont die as much.

[vares.8457]

4 minutes ago, Hauwlyn.8051 said:

Even if they want to do it in open world, there's plenty of mostly abandonned events that are fun to solo.

And there is plenty to do in open world where you just have to auto attack while watching Netflix. 99% of open world is zero challenge and zero difficulty. That should be enough for people like you, don’t you think? 
Why does this 1% of open world trigger you so much? 

Edited December 19, 2022 by vares.8457

[Hauwlyn.8051]

1 minute ago, Cuks.8241 said:

I would say the meta is already at that point difficulty wise. If my win rate in the first weeks was about 50 % and it usually meant failure with complete random group and win with organised group. Now I dont remember the last time I failed. It has been months. I do join a well known meta train often but I also do it on a whim with random group about as often. The problem is and always was time commitment if you go for map buffs.

 

You're completely ignoring the simple phenomenon which is people boycotting this meta. The nerfs weren't remotely as consequential as you paint them out to be, the meta got much easier because the people interested in it shifted towards the hardcore parts of the playerbase.

5 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

DPS or CC was never the problem with this meta. Yeah its tighter than usual but its still very relaxed. The problem was always people dying to mechanics and low dps was just a consequence. In the first month people were all over platform, dying left and right, didnt know what to do. Today most people know what to do. And even if the dps is not the best and CC is not there (just had a group like that yesterday, at release that group would fail) meta is cleared with plenty minutes just because people dont die as much.

The day the expansion was released, I rushed through the story and ended up doing the meta this very evening. The people with me were motivated and focused, because people taking it easy wouldn't have possibly reached that map yet, but plenty were trying out new specs. We had what was at the time a lucky pattern, though I only could deduce that after more attempts. Everyone did the tail the 2 times it showed up because people who read the event and buffs called it out and everyone was focused enough to follow the call. They were fresh enough to not get hit more than once if at all by the same attack. We had enough people conscious that Thornhearts were a problem to get them killed during interphases. We however didn't optimize boons in the slightest, but the map buffs were about as stacked as they were the last few times I did it. This first group of utter madlads failed with 7% left. Doing it after the nerfs this way we would have barely eeked out a win, because we had a lucky pattern even by the post nerf standards. If the difference between a 50/50 shot at it and consistency is making boon optimized subgroups and playing decent specs for this squad, imagine what it would be for octovine farmers. It's not "very relaxed" as you put it, it's massive. Just look at your meter in any other meta, you'll see the massive disparity merely within top 10, how can you pretend this isn't a sizeable effort to them?

 

19 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

And there is plenty to do in open world where you just have to auto attack while watching Netflix. 99% of open world is zero challenge and zero difficulty. That should be enough for people like you, don’t you think? 

 

Apparently you didn't even read the opening post since you believe me to be one of those casuals. Hey, at least you're honest in your desire to ostracize them now, hmm? It's good to be honest but you can go back to trolling now. Have fun.

[Crono.4197]

17 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

Why does this 1% of open world trigger you so much? 

If they wanted to make a hard meta and it involved a random boss that doesn't fit anywhere/isn't relevant, like Triple Trouble, then no one would complain. But this boss is tied to the game's story and the game even wants you to do this meta first before proceeding with the story. Not to mention that it takes so long to even reach the Soo-Won part, of course it will leave people frustrated if the meta fails.

But yeah people will only say "git gud" and ignore the fact that most people who play this game aren't here to "git gud". If I wanted to "git gud", I would play Dark Souls or MMOs where bosses one shot me if I make one mistake, instead of Guild Wars 2.

[Hauwlyn.8051]

2 minutes ago, Crono.4197 said:

If they wanted to make a hard meta and it involved a random boss that doesn't fit anywhere/isn't relevant, like Triple Trouble, then no one would complain.

And at least, TT doesn't require anyone to change their build and gear to something optimized for dps, it just requires them to be early for the commanders to teach them the (rather easy) mechanics. Clearly the better way to do more challenging meta events without overtuning anything.
Plus, if TT had been as popular as something like Dragon's Stand, I could see the possibility that enough players would be informed enough that it would succeed without the briefing.

[Cyninja.2954]

4 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

It's why I don't do the meta myself and I'm easily in the top 1% of players in this game when it comes to combat proficiency.

Now I'm sure wingman logs are not the be-all end-all and performance for most players will be significantly higher in their statics (and you have no killproof.me account).

Still, going by your  openly available wingman logs though, you are not top 1%. Far from it actually. You are a decent dps which outperforms most average pug players. That's not top 1% though. Even I can pull that off and most certainly do not consider myself top 1% (because I have seen what that actually means performance wise and it makes even decent players cry).

Even comparing your performance with our full clear run this week (or past weeks), you were around 20-30% below our dps on every fight on wingman (and yes, sub optimal boons and longer fights will cause that) and that's on a full clear run, not even pushing speed-run levels here. Doesn't change the fact that there is not a single "top 1%" log available for your account (which might very well be a twink account).

Just a small readjustment to your self-observation. That's the issue we face in this game a lot though. Many players believing they are far above their skill grade than they actually are, then complaining about content being to "difficult" instead of improving just a bit.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Ellon.4316]

As a defender of this meta staying as is i want to get some things cleared up.

• "You need highly optimized raid builds and gear". No you don't , https://dps.report/M4Je-20221219-192730_golem <-- 13.3K on harrier/cleric heal gear (monk runes and all). I believe the damage needed for Soo Won was set at 7K so almost double what is needed. Plus this is without the 25% damage buff you get from pre-events and the 150 power buff from protocols. If you want an explanation of the rotation: sword phantasm -> press buttons -> sword phantasm -> swap -> gs phantasm -> ether -> gs phantasm -> press buttons -> gs phantasm -> swap. More then enough time in the pre-events to explain this.
• "It's unfair that all those lore/collections/achievements are locked behind the meta". So are the lore/collections/achievements locked behind fractals/dungeons/strikes/raids/etc.. That content is a lot more difficult yet i see no-one complaining about missing the white mantle lore. Also people engaged enough to go for collections dependent on the DE meta are engaged enough to open the LFG.
• "Casuals should be teached in-game what is expected instead of suddenly hitting this roadblock". Everything is explained, jumping over shockwaves is done in Seiting and Kaineng meta's. Hiding behind crystals/junk or insta-kill mechanics is done in echovald, killing bosses at the same time or moving out of orange circles is done in so many meta events you should know it by now. The only new mechanic in the DE meta is the wisps phase, the rest of the meta is just boons and DPS check. Boons are handled by the commander and other players so you don't even have to worry about that. 
• "Just remove the timer so everyone can succeed" Fair point, this also means removing the biggest most meaningful reward from the meta, that is beating Soo Won. It also means removing the only step-up in the game towards instanced content. Further widening the skill gap in the player base and making it impossible for Anet to do anything even remotely challenging in open world. Which eventually leads to the skilled player base leaving because there is nothing for them to do and you might not like it but the skilled and engaged playerbase is kind off important. It is the playerbase that leads meta-events, makes new builds, write articles and guides and in general push the game further then what was thought possible. Losing that playerbase means losing a lot of community knowledge.
• "Casuals don't want to git gud". You don't need to git gud, just willing to improve and there is enough downtime during the pre-events for me or any of the other more skilled players to help you pick the traits/skills you need to successfully complete this meta. I do not want to see this meta fail, I want to help people succeed! That is the reward i play for and that reward is far better then 12 unidentified greens.

And as a note, I'm far from a good player. I barely hit 75% of the snowcrows benchmarks and yes i struggle in instanced content. So if i can be confident enough in leading a DE meta then with just a tiny spark of motivation and some knowledge anyone can do it.

 

[mandala.8507]

25 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Now I'm sure wingman logs are not the be-all end-all and performance for most players will be significantly higher in their statics (and you have no killproof.me account).

Still, going by your  openly available wingman logs though, you are not top 1%. Far from it actually. You are a decent dps which outperforms most average pug players. That's not top 1% though. Even I can pull that off and most certainly do not consider myself top 1% (because I have seen what that actually means performance wise and it makes even decent players cry).

Even comparing your performance with our full clear run this week (or past weeks), you were around 20-30% below our dps on every fight on wingman (and yes, sub optimal boons and longer fights will cause that) and that's on a full clear run, not even pushing speed-run levels here. Doesn't change the fact that there is not a single "top 1%" log available for your account (which might very well be a twink account).

Just a small readjustment to your self-observation. That's the issue we face in this game a lot though. Many players believing they are far above their skill grade than they actually are, then complaining about content being to "difficult" instead of improving just a bit.

I'm not overvaluing my skill, you just don't know what that data actually represents. Also, dps is not the be-all, end-all. There are lots of components to combat proficiency that have nothing to do with being able to get 1 really good log. I'll be honest, I only pug, avoid high KP groups, am a left-handed skill clicker, don't care about doing top dps, and play on peripherals and keybinds that would make most gw2 raiders quit gaming entirely if they were forced to use them.

Wingman is an inherently top-heavy database and NONE of that data is representative of the playerbase as a whole. I've been doing raids for half a decade, and the vast majority of my runs don't end up on there.

I actually don't even know what you mean by top 1%. If you mean top 1% on Wingman?, that's probably closer to top 0.1% than it is to 1% considering the whole of the playerbase, especially with how biased reporting to Wingman is.

Thanks for your elitist diagnosis of why I think this meta should be more approachable, though 😕

[Cyninja.2954]

16 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

I actually don't even know what you mean by top 1%. If you mean top 1% on Wingman?, that's probably closer to top 0.1% than it is to 1% considering the whole of the playerbase, especially with how biased reporting to Wingman is.

Thanks for your elitist diagnosis of why I think this meta should be more approachable, though 😕

I simply went with your claim and put some data to it (even if imperfect data and I even made mention where some mistakes in my evaluation might come in). Also yes, dps isn't everything and if you want, I could go through those logs for failed mechanics, positioning, reaction to mechanics, etc. I do so on a regular basis for new players we train (in another guild). You decided to make claims as to validate your own bias and preference as to why this meta deserve changing, I am unsure why you are complaining about me actually questioning those claims.

That said, you are not in a unique situation here (and I didn't want to "elitist diagnose" your performance, simply add context to it). Many players are subject to their own biases in this game and as such draw personal conclusions (I do so myself). Always a difficult situation to be in when making assumptions, like all the players making assumptions on EoD content being dead, even though they are never actually present in the content, or questioning the completion rates of Dragon's End. That's where developer data is superior to our understanding of the game.

I'm sure if the meta does turn into a ghost land some time in the future, the developers will move in and adjust it. Until then my guess is it is where it's supposed to be at: a challenge for players who are encouraged to improve their game understanding.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Shadowmoon.7986]

I really need to check the forum archive, was the playerbase so entitled during teq, tt, tm and vw before HoT. All of those meta required organized group, and often failed, but i do not remember all the whining on the forum back then.

Is this a side effect of the covid lockdown? I understand we are in a great resigntion in RL, but this feel like bleed over into IG.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mandala.8507]

4 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Actually no, I am saying you are overestimating your own ability, just like many other players. Some of those other players are calling this meta to difficult when in fact it is their personal inability to perform which makes it this difficult (and reaching minimal competence levels for success in this meta is not that hard).

In short: the meta is fine where it is at and if more players did some critical self-evaluation and improvement this discussion would not be had.

So, obligatory "get good", is what you're saying. Makes sense. Gosh, I wish I were good enough to do the Dragon's End Meta without being carried. Too bad I'm not in the top 1% of raiders on Wingman and therefore my perspective is obfuscated by my badness.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 minute ago, mandala.8507 said:

So, obligatory "get good", is what you're saying. Makes sense. Gosh, I wish I were good enough to do the Dragon's End Meta without being carried. Too bad I'm not in the top 1% of raiders on Wingman and therefore my perspective is obfuscated by my badness.

 

Which is not what I said, but you are free to interpret as you see fit.

[vares.8457]

5 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

I'm easily in the top 1% of players in this game when it comes to combat proficiency.

I doubt that. 

[mandala.8507]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Which is not what I said, but you are free to interpret as you see fit.

I'm fairly certain "if more players did some critical self-evaluation and improvement" is an exact translation of "get good".