Dragon's End is still massively overtuned and random

[Debesyla.7102]

58 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

I feel like this is a meta followed by a world boss. Just imagine having to do an hour long meta before Triple Trouble.

Are you complaining of pre-meta rewards?

Edited December 23, 2022 by Debesyla.7102

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Debesyla.7102 said:

Are you complaining of pre-meta rewards?

Well, yes, if the preevents had rewards comparable to, say, south Drizzlewood preevents, the complains would go down significantly. It's the combination of DE being overtuned, all rewards being backloaded and hinging on final boss fight success, a long term commintemt necessary that makes this whole meta design a big issue. Well, that and locking a lot of unrelated map achievements (and map completion) behind meta success.

[Cyninja.2954]

11 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, yes, if the preevents had rewards comparable to, say, south Drizzlewood preevents, the complains would go down significantly. It's the combination of DE being overtuned, all rewards being backloaded and hinging on final boss fight success, a long term commintemt necessary that makes this whole meta design a big issue. Well, that and locking a lot of unrelated map achievements (and map completion) behind meta success.

 

I actually agree on the reward part and I believe I've stated so myself earlier in the thread.

 

Having a somewhat less backloaded reward system for the map would encourage more attempts at completing it, even from players who might go in less prepared. Note though that the map is already very rewarding, even the pre events, it's just that the rewards are not as tangible for many players. Acquiring some imperial favor, karma and experience does not immediately strike one with "I got loot" even if valuable, especially when the main reward are the bulk of the perceived value (and actual value, the success chest is decent).

 

Maybe the rewards could be broken down to have a tad more after the pre events and before the actual Soo-Won fight (some minor weekly chest maybe, or even daily, primarily to give players a "feeling" of being rewarded part way) while keeping the main reward enticing enough to not have players leave before attempting the final fight.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Kozumi.5816]

6 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

No, lol. This is fractally wrong.

Look up what the word factual means.

[Kozumi.5816]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Well, yes, if the preevents had rewards comparable to, say, south Drizzlewood preevents, the complains would go down significantly. It's the combination of DE being overtuned, all rewards being backloaded and hinging on final boss fight success, a long term commintemt necessary that makes this whole meta design a big issue. Well, that and locking a lot of unrelated map achievements (and map completion) behind meta success.

It's been a year and they've done nothing about the rewards besides adding an A.S.S. super early on, they don't have any interest in making their game worth playing and rewarding for whatever reason.

[vares.8457]

26 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

It's been a year and they've done nothing about the rewards besides adding an A.S.S. super early on, they don't have any interest in making their game worth playing and rewarding for whatever reason.

Then why are you still here? Just to cry and complain? 
I think the game is worth playing. 

[Ultramex.1506]

15 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

If your players need to premade and organize open world content with specific builds to succeed, the content is a failure.

Content like this belongs in instances, not open world.

If you are talking about Alac and Quickness, well me personally, all i did was click on trait that give boon to other nearby while still wearing my exotic marauder or dire gear depend on classes (Willbender and Harbinger)

You may think it's a mess uh yea it is, but it still get the job done. Anet these days seem to push everyone to use these boons, why else other classes can now give them out like candies?

Edited December 23, 2022 by Ultramex.1506

[Kate.3679]

15 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

If your players need to premade and organize open world content with specific builds to succeed, the content is a failure.

Content like this belongs in instances, not open world.

 

False. Yesterday I joined a squad in lfg 5 minutes before the meta started. The commander randomly chucked people into subs based on what he thought were quickness and alac builds. We cleared with 5 minutes left on the timer. This is the log: https://dps.report/KtoE-20221222-124614_de

 

You can see that boon uptime isn't great and the majority of it was generated by the protocols. We still easily cleared.

[Silent.6137]

1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Look up what the word factual means.

 

6 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Nope, fractally

The word was used intentionally. Fractal wrongness

[Shadowmoon.7986]

15 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

There's no single other meta that requires "(quick+alac+comm calls splits for phases)" to have a chance of succeeding. Not even Triple Trouble (which is heads above all other pre-EoD metas organizationwise). And as for potential dps checks, the only meta i still see sometimes fail due to lack of dps is Drakkar (and only if it starts with small group of players - it never happens to larger squads, even if they are completely ad-hoc made). No other meta has a dps check based around a large part of the squad running actual dps builds (instead of the run of the mill random OW ones), with high level of boon coverage either. Those things are generally limited to instanced content only - with the glaring exception of DE.

That's why DE is being considered by a lot of players to be a design failure. And why most players that think otherwise are among those that do like and play instanced content which this meta so much resemble.

 

I mean, if you pick a meta that was launched before alac existed, mass quickness was not a thing (but mesmers were asked to bring time warp for burn phases) and required more specialized teams than DE (there was a dedicated group for 5 people per worm to condi husks because of the condi cap, 5 people per worm to reflect eggs), and required 3 squad coordination to kill the 3 worms at the same time or it auto failed, not reset the hp to try again, then by this very bad faith definition this is a true statement. But in reality, TT required just as much or more than DE now.  This meta also required dedicated  guild who would run training exercises 30 minutes to an hour before the event.  If you are judging the meta now post condi cap removal, post Xpac power creep, this would be true, but at the time TT required just as much or mote than DE.

The biggest feature I want is a gear/trait inspect in OW. I do not care if the alot of players think DE was a design failure, because I suspect most are using random gear, with random rarity, with mismatched runes and sigils, running random traits. Of course they will think the game is broken when they have bad tools, and it is 100% Anets fault by not punishing them using bad tools for so long. A gear/trait inspect would at least allow people to see what good people are using, further move the needle to players "gitting gud". When players "git gud" we get meaningful encounters, not the boring encounters of the PoF metas.

[Gehenna.3625]

6 hours ago, Debesyla.7102 said:

Are you complaining of pre-meta rewards?

nope.

[Gehenna.3625]

7 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Nope, fractally.

It is when something is wrong itself, and it makes claims that are wrong based on assumptions that are wrong and applying logic that is wrong.

Like a fractal. It's wrong, and as you keep zooming in, it just keeps being wrong.

Hmmm, I've never in my life seen it used that way and looking it up also didn't give results for that particular meaning/use. Interesting. How did you come to this use if I may ask?

[The Boz.2038]

4 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Hmmm, I've never in my life seen it used that way and looking it up also didn't give results for that particular meaning/use. Interesting. How did you come to this use if I may ask?

It is a concept that's been around, as linked a few posts above.

[Krzysztof.5973]

22 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

If your players need to premade and organize open world content with specific builds to succeed, the content is a failure.

Content like this belongs in instances, not open world.

Is the general population displeased with 'having' to use decent builds and interacting with each other on higher level than just seeing the crowd of nameless faces? Is that what's happening? 

[Gehenna.3625]

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

It is a concept that's been around, as linked a few posts above.

Cool, I've learned something new 🙂

[SuavePuppy.2809]

I think the rewards need to be less backloaded, especially considering the length of the entire meta. And more maps overall need to incorporate reward tracks for participation. It makes the time spent feel valuable even if the final fight isn't a success.

[Kozumi.5816]

2 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Is the general population displeased with 'having' to use decent builds and interacting with each other on higher level than just seeing the crowd of nameless faces? Is that what's happening? 

No, that type of gameplay just doesn't belong in OW content.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[PzTnT.7198]

I kind of wonder what it really takes to have this meta complete reliably. Ive tried it a couple of times with random groups off of LFG but so far its been a 100% failure rate at the end of the final boss fight.

I'm not too keen on trying it again since its over an hour long but i need to complete it for the turtle mount. A longer timer would help or something like the boss resetting so the group can try again immediately rather than having to wait for several hours to get back to the boss.

[Ashen.2907]

11 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Look up what the word factual means.

Reread what he said.

[vares.8457]

47 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

No, that type of gameplay just doesn't belong in OW content.

it does. Open World doesn’t have to be boring. 

[Randulf.7614]

56 minutes ago, PzTnT.7198 said:

I kind of wonder what it really takes to have this meta complete reliably. Ive tried it a couple of times with random groups off of LFG but so far its been a 100% failure rate at the end of the final boss fight.

I'm not too keen on trying it again since its over an hour long but i need to complete it for the turtle mount. A longer timer would help or something like the boss resetting so the group can try again immediately rather than having to wait for several hours to get back to the boss.

I think they changed it so you don’t need it for the turtle mount anymore - you buy the egg instead as an alternative option.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Siege_Turtle

Edited December 24, 2022 by Randulf.7614

[Firebeard.1746]

Most DE groups are started within communities. And it's really a raid buff/comp test. You're basically supposed to ignore tail, CC and DPS as hard as you can, clean up bad adds. Tail is a very unrewarding mechanic:

1) It moves too much to be useful as a focused target

2) It's a DPS sink: THere's no reward for killing tail over Soo Won. Basically my discussions with sneb have have emphasized breaking the bar and doing hard DPS there. 

 

Unfortunately, it's like almost any other GW2 encounter: ignore mechanics as much as possible then do gobs of DPS. I personally prefer PVE where mechanics are the biggest thing, not DPS, but sometimes, telegraphs and mechanics are so unreliable in this game, I get kind of grrateful. 

 

I do agree with you, it is overtuned, but it's basically just a DPS meter. It's not terrible if you have a few people pumping raid DPS in your group + full boons on everyone else. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Firebeard.1746]

On 12/17/2022 at 11:33 AM, Cuks.8241 said:

DE meta will never be consistently cleared with completely random maps. Its how its designed and it seems to be intentional. And I like it, some might not.

Yes joining an organised group is by far the most consistent way to clear this. But none of these groups have any requirements. You just need to join them. I've been joining some meta trains without any requirements and the event is being cleared with 8+ min of spare time. 

I've noticed that people in ow are actually doing a lot more dmg as they did before EOD. Yeah its anecdotal, I could be wrong, its not a huge sample and I dont run arc all the time. But I have a feeling all the effort with educating players, opening up more LI builds and more boon support options and  actually providing OW encounter where performance is somewhat important lead to more players playing better. And this is great. And also strike LFG has never been livelier so maybe their plan to bring OW and instance players closer together actually worked.

If it needs that much prep in order to succeed, what's the point of it being an open world thing? It's like having a raid that's public squad and no one is required to have the right gear/talents/setup, it's guaranteed to fail at least 90% of the time. Why not make it like DS or Marrionette but require private squad all the time?

The fairest thing to me would be to nerf its difficulty in OW, make a private squad version, and buff the rewards for the private squad, maybe nerf the rewards a LITTLE bit in the OW version (the OW verison is SOOOO LOOOONG it still needs a hefty chunk of change to be worth it). 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Firebeard.1746]

4 hours ago, vares.8457 said:

it does. Open World doesn’t have to be boring. 

Is failing 90%+ of the time if you don't enter a pre-organized community group exciting? Is that a good experience for players? 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[vares.8457]

4 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Is failing 90%+ of the time if you don't enter a pre-organized community group exciting? Is that a good experience players? 

That’s not true but if you prefer boring and unchallenging open world content you can play the other 99% of open world. 
Everyone can join an organized squad, no one has to fail the meta. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by vares.8457