The 4th specialization, what is left for the class?

[Arheundel.6451]

I believe everything that could have gone wrong has been fully covered now with Untamed, for better or for worst, people got what they wanted : a pet "focused" elite with hammer reminiscing of the Bunny Thumper from GW1, now for possibly the last elite for the class, the company should answer in tune and give the ranger community what they have been asking for like..forever?! -  a ranged AoE non projectile based for WvW or brawler sort of spec, at least that's what I felt so far and personally I am hoping for a mechanic that finally allow the ranger to join group fights efficiently without pet worries, while giving close to the same freedom as Soulbeast offers, to date the best elite ranger has in all game modes, in terms of flexibility and results.

So let's see what the poll says...

[Dadnir.5038]

I find the answers that the poll provide way to restrictive to vote.

And, who know, maybe the next e-spec will be an underwater e-spec which would basically mean trident as a weapon.

[Kodama.6453]

My personal (and the one of my best friend, who mains ranger for many years now but unfortunately is not a great forum-goer) would be an elite spec that uses the scepter as a whip.

Like having a green, thorny, magical vine extend from the scepter, which is used to flay enemies at medium range.

As utility skills, wells could get used to give ranged AoE abilities, but this skill type seems a bit overused already. My friend oftenly requested to get access to venoms, since these make sense for ranger thematically (especially since venoms on thief are all based on Tyrian animals, something ranger sits at the source of). To make it thematically different from the thief venoms, maybe a ranger could use poisons taken from plants instead, which would also feed into the thematic of the scepter/whip with the vine animation.

Only problem I see with venoms is that the gameplay mechanic seems a bit similar like the stance share from soulbeast already, so it would need a pretty good twist to make it different.

Now just spitballing ideas here: What if ranger venoms wouldn't put all stacks of the venom buff in a PBAoE around the ranger, but instead they are ground targeted and the ranger grows a plant at the selected area, which then will pulse an effect around it which affects enemies and allies? One plant, for example, could pulse conditions onto enemies around it and at the same time pulse stacks of the venom to your allies.

 

 

[Kodama.6453]

18 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I find the answers that the poll provide way to restrictive to vote.

And, who know, maybe the next e-spec will be an underwater e-spec which would basically mean trident as a weapon.

I don't think that adding elite specs which get access to an under water weapon is a good idea anymore, considering how much they abandoned that stuff. They don't even create weapon skins for underwater weapons anymore most of the time. We also still just have one set of under water legendary weapons while all other weapons got at least 3 (counting the aurene variants as one set here).

At this point, I think it's best to just let it go.

[stormemperor.3745]

Rifle ranger 1500 range, Better sniper compared to deadeye. Quick switch to longbow for burst 2. 

[Dadnir.5038]

56 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

At this point, I think it's best to just let it go.

Never!

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

I want  need rifle ranger next. I don't know why they've been so stubborn on this. I want a hunter-type class, that uses rifle as a sort of shotgun. Think the blunderbuss rifle skill on engineer but way more fleshed-out and with different types of loads. Have an explosive load (projectiles in a cone but every individual projectile is aoe), a flechette load (bleeding), etc. Then for skill #5 maybe have a slug that hates on low target HP for a takedown shot. Do something cool with pets, like what about having both pets out at once? I feel like that would really complement a posh hunter / tracker vibe (ofc I'd use dogs for both pets)

Edited December 18, 2022 by Elricht Kaltwind.8796

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

27 minutes ago, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

I want  need rifle ranger next. I don't know why they've been so stubborn on this. I want a hunter-type class, that uses rifle as a sort of shotgun. Think the blunderbuss rifle skill on engineer but way more fleshed-out and with different types of loads. Have an explosive load (projectiles in a cone but every individual projectile is aoe), a flechette load (bleeding), etc. Then for skill #5 maybe have a slug that hates on low target HP for a takedown shot. Do something cool with pets, like what about having both pets out at once? I feel like that would really complement a posh hunter / tracker vibe (ofc I'd use dogs for both pets)

I feel like this just a thematic idea and could very easily go the same way as Untamed.

 

What does this spec do that's different from other ranger specs beyond the second pet and having access to rifle?

 

How does having the second pet always out interact with both the player and the rest of the game? Do you get more control, like untamed? Does the second pet not let the ranger use their f2 skill (i.e. if I had my wyvern and gazelle, could I only use the wyvern's f2 until I swap to the gazelles)?

Edited December 18, 2022 by RainbowTurtle.3542
I sure do love glitchy mobile interfaces wahoo

[Infusion.7149]

1200 range hybrid condition rifle with bleeding and burning and slower attack rate than shortbow. There's power weapons such as longbow and axe (arguably hybrid) so ranger is missing a ranged condition weapon that doesn't rely on flanking and that also has respectable power damage. Rifle also is the least used land weapon in the game probably and befits a "hunter".

Example:
#1 = "Rifle shot" or something ... bleeding and ~0.8 coefficient (~0.4 in PVP/WVW) with 0.75 activation and piercing

#2 = ~1.5 coefficient piercing attack with bleeding (~1.0 in PVP/WVW); ~8 cooldown --- modeled after CoR on revenant

#3 = 180 radius ground AoE ~2.0 coefficient (~1.5 in PVP/WVW), 5 stacks burning and ignores projectile defenses; ~10 cooldown and a slightly higher activation for an obvious telegraph but no self root --- modeled after explosive shell on warrior or blunderbuss on engineer but with actual damage

#4 = 600 PBAOE cone burning with 600 knockback (150CC) ; ~15 cooldown and half the cooldown if hits a defiant target
#5 = long duration poison and 2s daze CC unblockable if immob/stunned ; ~20 cooldown

I don't see a point to shield (support weapon when druid exists) or mace (CC weapon when it has untamed with hammer). Scepter and focus are magic weapons so they are extremely unlikely. 

Pistol offhand would likely function similarly to offhand torch and mainhand pistol would function similar to axe mainhand. Aesthetically it doesn't fit a "hunter" spec as much as a rifle.

Special Features: Pet can be permastowed in combat for crit chance as a "spotter" to make it relevant in WvW.  😄

Bonus points: rework Rune of the Privateer parrot

[Kodama.6453]

36 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Scepter and focus are magic weapons so they are extremely unlikely. 

Why you consider magical weapons unlikely if ranger has druid which uses a staff and the class is obviously making use of magic (literally having a trait line called "nature magic")?

Magical weapons are perfectly fine for ranger. Thematically, I consider it to be less likely that ranger gets rifle, because of the nature theme it has going.

[Infusion.7149]

1 minute ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Why you consider magical weapons unlikely if ranger has druid which uses a staff and the class is obviously making use of magic (literally having a trait line called "nature magic")?

Magical weapons are perfectly fine for ranger. Thematically, I consider it to be less likely that ranger gets rifle, because of the nature theme it has going.

Well if you want to argue it has nature magic (which is essentially a support traitline) what sort of synergies do you expect from a new spec and a scepter or focus? If it is a scepter you still end up having axe or warhorn or torch as an offhand ; if it's focus then you still have mainhand axe or sword.

Instead of another support ranger should get a viable spec for WVW as it is fine in PVE and druid should get pet stow in WVW since the pet contributes very little save for the siege turtle which has a projectile dome.

[Kodama.6453]

Just now, Infusion.7149 said:

Well if you want to argue it has nature magic (which is essentially a support traitline) what sort of synergies do you expect from a new spec and a scepter or focus? If it is a scepter you still end up having axe or warhorn or torch as an offhand ; if it's focus then you still have mainhand axe or sword.

Instead of another support ranger should get a viable spec for WVW as it is fine in PVE and druid should get pet stow in WVW since the pet contributes very little save for the siege turtle which has a projectile dome.

Nature magic is a supportive trait line, but a new elite spec doesn't need to be supportive, too.

This is a thematical hook. But they could make it different by making the ranger use the nature magic to attack enemies this time instead of supporting allies. Like influencing plants in the environment to attack enemies and such. Which could also give it a niche in WvW by giving it ranged AoE abilities.

It would explore another side of nature magic, I don't think that it always has to be supportive. Showcase the destructive side of nature instead.

[Infusion.7149]

4 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Nature magic is a supportive trait line, but a new elite spec doesn't need to be supportive, too.

This is a thematical hook. But they could make it different by making the ranger use the nature magic to attack enemies this time instead of supporting allies. Like influencing plants in the environment to attack enemies and such. Which could also give it a niche in WvW by giving it ranged AoE abilities.

It would explore another side of nature magic, I don't think that it always has to be supportive. Showcase the destructive side of nature instead.

 I don't think you thought this out. How are you going to compete with hammer rev (1200 range), power scourges with double wells (900 range), or any staff ele just by mainhand scepter (or even worse with offhand focus)? The damage would need to be high and on <10 second cooldowns and a mainhand only has 2 actual skills other than the auto. Most offhands are >20s cooldown so you're realistically looking at scepter exclusively. In addition, any utilities would need to compete with a LoTP traited One Wolf Pack and Dolyak Stance soulbeast using greatsword + sword with offhand axe or double axes. That's an extremely tall order without a full weapon skillset 1-5.

Untamed is a clear example of this, there are AoEs and boon rips on hammer and also the utilities but because it is melee ranged and still uses a pet it cannot compete with spellbreaker's consistency and utility. It's a similar case with thief which gained scepter. The damage isn't there and single target support is only suited for PVP.

There are several main things that need to happen:
* It can't be fully projectile even if the auto is projectile , greatsword is fine for melee range and to a lesser extent so is sword with axe offhand (offhand axe roots you in comparison to offhand axe on warriors)
* the skills need to do some AoE with appreciable power damage > 1.0 coefficient
* If it is 900 ranged (i.e. scepter) the skills cannot be delayed a second or two to the extent of elementalist scepter for largescale or people would rather run scepter eles or power scourges
* Can't have the pet always hanging about

This is all assuming the forth expansion will even add additional elite specs. It is possible it will not.

[Kodama.6453]

8 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

This is all assuming the forth expansion will even add additional elite specs. It is possible it will not.

Well, yeah, but this thread here is specifically asking about opinions on what a next elite spec could be. It should be a given that we are working with the premise that a next elite spec is coming. The entire thread is based on that.

11 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Untamed is a clear example of this, there are AoEs and boon rips on hammer and also the utilities but because it is melee ranged and still uses a pet it cannot compete with spellbreaker's consistency and utility. It's a similar case with thief which gained scepter. The damage isn't there and single target support is only suited for PVP.

It is quite a challenge to create something viable for ranger in WvW, agreed. But I don't think that this is something impossible to achieve with scepter as a weapon. It is harder to get to that point with focus, so I will give you that.

Anyway, the main point I was actually refuting from you was that it is really unlikely that ranger gets a magical weapon, because that makes no sense for me. Ranger already has clear precedence of using magical weapons.

[Elricht Kaltwind.8796]

2 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

I feel like this just a thematic idea and could very easily go the same way as Untamed.

 

What does this spec do that's different from other ranger specs beyond the second pet and having access to rifle?

 

How does having the second pet always out interact with both the player and the rest of the game? Do you get more control, like untamed? Does the second pet not let the ranger use their f2 skill (i.e. if I had my wyvern and gazelle, could I only use the wyvern's f2 until I swap to the gazelles)?

Yes, what I'm describing is a theme, because that's what I want. A spec with that theme. I don't have any input on how it should play beyond that because I'm not a game designer, I'm a character designer.

 

I figure the tradeoff of the class would be you aren't eligible for any pet swapping bonuses, which are central to a lot of the existing traits. But perhaps those traits could be modified, becoming "lesser" traits that activate upon using your F1 skill (which would function the same way as the core ranger F1 skill.) Or just activate upon entering combat. That would give them good initial damage and way worse sustained damage, the opposite of the way the pet-swap-related traits work.

[Mell.4873]

I could see a Rifle Ranger with something like Kits making it a sort of beast master or beast trapper. 

The Rifle will most be offensive damage with long cast times. It would play like artillery providing much needed ranged aoe damage. It would sort of be like deadeye but pure aoe.

The Kits could replace your pets skills and give them buffs based on the kit. They could deploy boons or provide aoe damage, even root the enemies in place so they can't move for your rifle artillery.

Pets could be buffed based on the kit a bit like how Mechanist Signets work and swapping kits could be a strategy to heal them or give them more damage.

A good addition with this is the ability to move the Pets to a targeted location, and wait or fight close to that target. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Mell.4873

[ApaWanka.2698]

I would said that Magic theme fits more that Tech theme for the ranger (even if nowadays hunters use rifles)

 

rifle would be just ANOTHER long range dps wrapon… we already have LB for that. 

 

…as @Kodama.6453said before we have a trait line called nature magic….. let’s embrace it 🤣

 

…. Much better something new, non projectile weapon (sceptre) or something with utility that ranger don’t have now (shield or focus) 

 

 

[Sansar.1302]

All is fine as long it is not rifle, ranger is not ranged class by default and already have mutch ranged power. Next weapon should be melle or short ranged. 

[Kodama.6453]

30 minutes ago, ApaWanka.2698 said:

I would said that Magic theme fits more that Tech theme for the ranger (even if nowadays hunters use rifles)

Ever since I watched the movie Princess Mononoke, I just can't picture a ranger with a rifle anymore. I am associating this weapon pretty hard with industrialization and destruction of nature now, which is the polar opposite of what ranger represents as being one with nature and protecting it.

[Sansar.1302]

15 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Ever since I watched the movie Princess Mononoke, I just can't picture a ranger with a rifle anymore. I am associating this weapon pretty hard with industrialization and destruction of nature now, which is the polar opposite of what ranger represents as being one with nature and protecting it.

Never seen ranger as nature focused, I have alway thinked the class more like army rangers

Don't think any of the especs we have fits ranger especially Druid. 

[Kodama.6453]

17 minutes ago, Sansar.1302 said:

Never seen ranger as nature focused, I have alway thinked the class more like army rangers

Don't think any of the especs we have fits ranger especially Druid. 

..... you are kidding, right?

Nature magic, including summoning nature spirits.
Multiple skills with animal animations (the bear from greatsword 2, snake and hornet on sword, shark and jellyfish on spear, etc.).
 

kitten, this here is how Anet described the class on their own website:

Quote

Rangers rely on a keen eye, a steady hand, and the power of nature itself. Unparalleled survivalists with traps, nature spirits, and a stable of loyal pets at their command, rangers can adapt to any situation.

They are directly slapping you in the face everywhere that ranger is the nature themed class, further reinforced by their elite specs.
Maybe you personally would prefer them to be "army rangers", but Anet clearly didn't go that way with their design. Ranger is nature themed, through and through.

Saying "I never saw ranger as a nature focused class" is like saying "I never saw necromancer as a death magic themed class".

Edited December 19, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[draxynnic.3719]

Didn't ArenaNet even say back in the day that they viewed ranger as a profession that deliberately avoided technology in order to be closer to nature? Not to mention that the graphics from several skills on sword and greatsword are clearly evoking animals. Now, I don't think that makes a more techy rifle elite specialisation impossible, but ranger is pretty clearly drawing from supernatural nature-oriented powers, to the point where they even come across as dabbling in elementalist magic, albeit with a few unique characteristics like plant manipulation through Entangle.

 

21 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

My personal (and the one of my best friend, who mains ranger for many years now but unfortunately is not a great forum-goer) would be an elite spec that uses the scepter as a whip.

Like having a green, thorny, magical vine extend from the scepter, which is used to flay enemies at medium range.

As utility skills, wells could get used to give ranged AoE abilities, but this skill type seems a bit overused already. My friend oftenly requested to get access to venoms, since these make sense for ranger thematically (especially since venoms on thief are all based on Tyrian animals, something ranger sits at the source of). To make it thematically different from the thief venoms, maybe a ranger could use poisons taken from plants instead, which would also feed into the thematic of the scepter/whip with the vine animation.

Only problem I see with venoms is that the gameplay mechanic seems a bit similar like the stance share from soulbeast already, so it would need a pretty good twist to make it different.

Now just spitballing ideas here: What if ranger venoms wouldn't put all stacks of the venom buff in a PBAoE around the ranger, but instead they are ground targeted and the ranger grows a plant at the selected area, which then will pulse an effect around it which affects enemies and allies? One plant, for example, could pulse conditions onto enemies around it and at the same time pulse stacks of the venom to your allies.

 

 

Interesting idea. One of the ironies, I think, is that venoms are possibly the closest thing in GW2 to GW1 ranger preparations. That could be how they achieve distinctive effects - use GW1 as a guide and have things like exploding attacks.

17 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Well if you want to argue it has nature magic (which is essentially a support traitline) what sort of synergies do you expect from a new spec and a scepter or focus? If it is a scepter you still end up having axe or warhorn or torch as an offhand ; if it's focus then you still have mainhand axe or sword.

Instead of another support ranger should get a viable spec for WVW as it is fine in PVE and druid should get pet stow in WVW since the pet contributes very little save for the siege turtle which has a projectile dome.

I don't think sceptre with any of those offhands is really a problem for a nature magic theme. A lot of the offhands are already ambiguous as to whether they involve magic or not. Warhorn is known for summoning flocks of aggressive birds - maybe the ranger is being followed by trained attack birds, or maybe they're summoned by magic. Torch bonfires light suspiciously fast... maybe they spill an accelerant first, or maybe it's magic. Path of Scars boomerangs back so hard it's a pull... is that axe attached to scorpion wire, or is it magic? Not to mention Whirling Defence being a reflect, which is a pretty Jedi move right there.

So yeah, I'd be pretty content combining any of those three with a sceptre for a magic theme. Heck, if anything, matching power to power or condi to condi might be more restrictive.

[Infusion.7149]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Didn't ArenaNet even say back in the day that they viewed ranger as a profession that deliberately avoided technology in order to be closer to nature? Not to mention that the graphics from several skills on sword and greatsword are clearly evoking animals. Now, I don't think that makes a more techy rifle elite specialisation impossible, but ranger is pretty clearly drawing from supernatural nature-oriented powers, to the point where they even come across as dabbling in elementalist magic, albeit with a few unique characteristics like plant manipulation through Entangle.

 

Interesting idea. One of the ironies, I think, is that venoms are possibly the closest thing in GW2 to GW1 ranger preparations. That could be how they achieve distinctive effects - use GW1 as a guide and have things like exploding attacks.

I don't think sceptre with any of those offhands is really a problem for a nature magic theme. A lot of the offhands are already ambiguous as to whether they involve magic or not. Warhorn is known for summoning flocks of aggressive birds - maybe the ranger is being followed by trained attack birds, or maybe they're summoned by magic. Torch bonfires light suspiciously fast... maybe they spill an accelerant first, or maybe it's magic. Path of Scars boomerangs back so hard it's a pull... is that axe attached to scorpion wire, or is it magic? Not to mention Whirling Defence being a reflect, which is a pretty Jedi move right there.

So yeah, I'd be pretty content combining any of those three with a sceptre for a magic theme. Heck, if anything, matching power to power or condi to condi might be more restrictive.

I think people are losing sight of the forest for the trees. Nature magic theme or not, most players don't care about that sort of thing and would rather to have a strong spec to play. The topic is "what is left for the class" which is a WVW DPS spec (druid would be serviceable if it has pet stow as far as a support). That is why I don't agree with scepter being a top pick, the only way for it to be a strong spec for WvW would be if all utilities and scepter skills did ranged AoE (3 targets+ auto and 5 target AoE) and you would still not get major mileage from warhorn, offhand axe, or torch (condi in WVW). Scepter for the most part is also 900 ranged which again brings the question of why would you run it over a power scourge with double wells, staff ele, scepter ele, herald/vindicator with hammer, etc.

Rifle is the only weapon on the list with 5 skill slots available ; most people from other games call ranger a "hunter" class anyway. Pistol doesn't scream "hunter" so much as rifle does.

[Batalix.2873]

I want Ranger to get an offhand focus that lets it summon huge eldritch pets (depending on what pet type is being used).

 

I think scepter would feel too much like Druid staff. I think shield is unlikely given that we already have two shield especs. And I don't really feel like pistol/rifle really gel with Ranger's "au naturale" distinction against engineer and thief.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

On 12/18/2022 at 4:43 PM, Elricht Kaltwind.8796 said:

Yes, what I'm describing is a theme, because that's what I want. A spec with that theme. I don't have any input on how it should play beyond that because I'm not a game designer, I'm a character designer.

 

I figure the tradeoff of the class would be you aren't eligible for any pet swapping bonuses, which are central to a lot of the existing traits. But perhaps those traits could be modified, becoming "lesser" traits that activate upon using your F1 skill (which would function the same way as the core ranger F1 skill.) Or just activate upon entering combat. That would give them good initial damage and way worse sustained damage, the opposite of the way the pet-swap-related traits work.

1. Again, the theme could take priority over the design with this one. I don't want another "Core turned up to 11" (pvp untamed) or "Core with 1 extra trait" (pve untamed- tell me with absolute certainty that in general, instanced PvE untamed is not "Core with Fervent Force". You auto-cast your pet skills anyways, the extra control is really not worth it).

2. We don't need another burst option like you're suggesting. People LOATHE Soulbeast in WvW because all it can do is burst, so it's forced to burst well.  Having something that leans even harder into bursting is just a recipe for disaster, since up until the Eternal Bond changes (and even to a degree now, just less so with the EB changes) Soulbeast was a one trick pony. This spec would crash and burn harder than Firebrand after the initial design rework this past major patch.