Elementalist.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

8 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

I mean that goes for any class running zerk mara assassin etc, but do they have the same amount of defenses to rotate/compensate? taking no damage is better than taking some over time.

These classes if built properly even on berserk stats can have quite kitten load of defenses in one build: Warrior, Spellbreaker, Mirage, Chronomancer, Virtuoso, Teef, Daredevil, Deadeye, Specter, Guardian, Dragonhunter, Willbender, Ranger, Druid, Soulbeast, Herald, Vindicator, Scrapper, Holosmith, Mechanist. 
On top of that, they'll pretty much kitten on any "power" based build that Ele has beside maybe FA that abuses superspeed spam. Necromancer is pretty dead on any power build in WvW, since it doesn't have any good active defenses in long run and you have to outplay pretty much anything for kills.

[Sahne.6950]

im gonna say it....  The Ebastionbuff that Tempest has received like 3 weeks ago.... was a liiiiiiittle bit too much maybe. They changed the scaling from x0.415  to x0.8....    I belive something like x0.65   -   x0.7 would be enough.

^I think this and the buffed sceptre is the reason we see so many eles currently.  Idk how it is in other matchups, but over here every 5th guy you meet when roaming the AlpineBL is a tempest with sceptre spamming FireAA like a monke. If you meet any group of 4 or more people you can be sure there is a suptempest with them.   I am bringing this up because Anet has a tendency to nerf the wrong things... im already seeing them nerf the sceptre cuz tempest has a bit too much healing. Which leads to them directly nerfing FAWeaver.... Every tempest will just goes back to dagger and FAWeaver will be more garbage than ever.

Catalyst on the other hand, is just as broken as any other class, that can run cele. Doesnt need any nerfs if you ask me... there is specs being ALOT stronger for roaming.    Some people seem to have forgotten that Celeharbinger is still on day 1 balancing, regardless of hundreds of QQ threads. Ever fought a cele Virtuoso?

 

But Lets be real for a second....

its smallscale we are talking about....  Devs dont give a single Quaggan about smallscale.....   Nothing will change, unless its interfering with the Zergmeta.

If you truely want to get ele nerfed, you need to share a video that somehow shows how ele is janking up the Boonball meta..... if it doenst jank the boonball meta......    they dont care.   Sad but true.

If you want fair smallscale pvp... you sadly have to play  salty pvp, or you have to accept the fact that your gonna get 1vXed by the next competent player on a celebuild, unless your playing Cele yourself.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Limbo.4087]

21 hours ago, Chewy Komeiji.2576 said:

Going to guess it's been weeks or months since any of you actually set foot in WvW.

 

Everyone and their aunt is rolling an Ele if they didn't have one already, just to stick Cele stats on it and then repeat the same DPS rotation without reacting to literally anything thrown at them, because they don't have to.

 

Both Catalyst and Tempest are completely busted right now, taking a group of three players of equal skill to their own to kill solo.

 

God forbid you find them in a group, because all of their ludicrously overtuned heals and boons are also AOE.

Just yesterday I fought against catalyst+specter 2v2 (I'm on holo and my friend on vindi). Confidently defeated them in every fight. I will clarify, 2 cele vs 2 cele

[nthmetal.9652]

On 12/18/2022 at 11:06 PM, Junkpile.7439 said:

Yes i was running with my ele in WvW and thief back stab me 12.8k from stealth and i have 2k hp left after that.

Have you tried puitting on some armor?

[Dawdler.8521]

11 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

I had less than 1600 armour, you could sneeze on me and I'd die.

Especially if you have even lower armor than having no gear or traits. 1900ish is base for an ele.

[andrewlcl.8176]

Folks. Stop worrying about elementalists. Let’s talk about cele harb. They can beat you while standing still. It might take them 5 minutes, but they get there eventually.

[The Raven.1320]

15 hours ago, solemn.9670 said:

People forget that traits are so much more important than stats. Take a full cele catalyst, put one on arcane/fire/catalyst and the other on air/fire/catalyst. The arcane build will be the one people call "nearly unkillable broken bunker" while the air build will be the one people sneeze at and it dies instantly unless the catalyst does nearly everything 90% perfectly in "rotations" (rotations don't actually exist on these builds) that are completely foreign to the average player.

I feel that in my soul. 
I tried dueling a WB as fire/air/cata with d/d and got deleted almost instantly. Swapped to fire/arcane/cata and was untouchable. I'd much rather play fire/air but it's so squish. 

[Jski.6180]

5 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

im gonna say it....  The Ebastionbuff that Tempest has received like 3 weeks ago.... was a liiiiiiittle bit too much maybe. They changed the scaling from x0.415  to x0.8....    I belive something like x0.65   -   x0.7 would be enough.

^I think this and the buffed sceptre is the reason we see so many eles currently.  Idk how it is in other matchups, but over here every 5th guy you meet when roaming the AlpineBL is a tempest with sceptre spamming FireAA like a monke. If you meet any group of 4 or more people you can be sure there is a suptempest with them.   I am bringing this up because Anet has a tendency to nerf the wrong things... im already seeing them nerf the sceptre cuz tempest has a bit too much healing. Which leads to them directly nerfing FAWeaver.... Every tempest will just goes back to dagger and FAWeaver will be more garbage than ever.

Catalyst on the other hand, is just as broken as any other class, that can run cele. Doesnt need any nerfs if you ask me... there is specs being ALOT stronger for roaming.    Some people seem to have forgotten that Celeharbinger is still on day 1 balancing, regardless of hundreds of QQ threads. Ever fought a cele Virtuoso?

 

But Lets be real for a second....

its smallscale we are talking about....  Devs dont give a single Quaggan about smallscale.....   Nothing will change, unless its interfering with the Zergmeta.

If you truely want to get ele nerfed, you need to share a video that somehow shows how ele is janking up the Boonball meta..... if it doenst jank the boonball meta......    they dont care.   Sad but true.

If you want fair smallscale pvp... you sadly have to play  salty pvp, or you have to accept the fact that your gonna get 1vXed by the next competent player on a celebuild, unless your playing Cele yourself.

The thing is healing auras where already the better chose over alacrity on overloads due to the scraper class getting effectly removed from the support meta (its still very much in the dps meta). So the only thing your asking for is just low healing over all for "big" groups. When it comes to smaller groups if your letting the tempest get overloads off you already lost as for aura skills and combos its not as much healing as say most self healing from other classes in the roaming builds that are more passive then active.

I think the main problem that ppl are having is with catatlyest and its not a new problem from the last update its just catatlyest is a more tankly ele due to stab on auras as well as +% self boon (all witch got nerfed in the last update).

Its far better to have the more easy to hard cc and lowest base hp / def as the "main healer" in gw2. There no ture mages support combo set in the game (Healing power/ Boon duration main and vit/def off or maybe condi duration/condi dmg off).

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

8 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Necromancer is pretty dead on any power build in WvW, since it doesn't have any good active defenses in long run and you have to outplay pretty much anything for kills.

Then explain how I'm able to dive in and out of the Mag zerg on my reaper tagging them for their bags.

[solemn.9670]

17 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Well, I play a class that doesn't have boon stripping (DH) and I really like this class, so I play it, but I don't really have an answer for thieves or catalysts. Thieves because they have way too much access to stealth and mobility and well, recently I don't have an answer for catalysts cause I can hold out for a little bit but no matter what I try I just can't seem to do much or any damage to them.

But I just don't even get a chance to damage them it feels like. So maybe it's just because I'm not a very good player, but with most other classes I feel like I at least have a chance. Catalysts not so much. So if you have any tips of how to penetrate their defenses without having boon stripping/corruption, I'd like to learn.

My tip is go play catalyst

I don't mean to sound rude but isn't that how we all learned to fight things? Ppl think they can just disregard an entire elite specs playstyle/mechanics and commonly played builds but if they die they have no idea why. You have to know what you're fighting.

Play catalyst and every time you go down ask yourself what happened, where was the weakness.

[solemn.9670]

17 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

I mean that goes for any class running zerk mara assassin etc, but do they have the same amount of defenses to rotate/compensate? taking no damage is better than taking some over time. Ele's have a good number of defenses including immunes to rotate and be able to sustain without even needing toughness. This builds into them sustaining well to the point that the opponent needs to get lucky with their burst or read your moves with a fine tooth comb to see the opening for it.

 

Not that I'm complaining about the player, if you have the skill and you play it well to perform that well, good on you, ele's are a very high skillbase class. I do think they have access to a little bit too much of everything all at once, but I haven't really thought about nerfing them for anything specifically, just point out some stuff like the cc's, just the extra boost they get off celestial, which also helps a lot of other specs overperform.

Well that's the crux of my point: if we nerf ele, shouldn't everyone else be brought down a bit too? I'm not denying it feels bad to die to sometimes. Especially if it's a relatively new player vs an experienced player on ele. It's a head scratching moment, it *feels* broken.

But the alternative to proper balance is nuking ele builds into near irrelevance which has happened a plenty of times before thanks to copious amounts of forum complaints and streamers whispering into devs ears.

That's why I get so defensive about it here, I'll note. Im tired of my main class being nerfed bc ppl don't want to play it themselves and see what it's weak to and how actually difficult it is the majority of the time if you aren't playing at peak level.

Take meteor shower for example. Staff weaver was nuked into near irrelevance, so many times now that it's like: "stop, he's already dead!" And anet keeps obliterating the build further; all because people don't want to learn how to step out of big obvious red circles.

 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Those dang Elementalists, killing people in a PvP game mode. They're just gods of war, walking around untouchable with 10k health and a whole 1900 armor. Its just unbelieveable that they can't be beaten.

 

One time my party got hit by a meteor and they all instantly died.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

10 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Then explain how I'm able to dive in and out of the Mag zerg on my reaper tagging them for their bags.

I was talking about skilled opponents.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

I was talking about skilled opponents.

True....

[Gehenna.3625]

14 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Play as an "willbill" willbender and be a better d/d ele from 2012. Not all classes are good at small group fights or roaming i am not even sure if the game is balanced around the ideal of smaller groups for wvw. Your best bet vs an catalyst is going to be stacking hard cc not just 1. Ele runs out of steam fast out side of its rotation and if you simply with into there rotation you going to be ground down (the good eles can change there rotation but only some what the bad ele cant).

 

I widely disagree with the maker of this but i must make one point if you see a thf you comply missed the point of why ppl play thf.

thanks for answering. You definitely gave me something to think about 🙂

[Arianth Moonlight.6453]

fun fact: The first time I got myself banned was after getting tired of seeing how OP eles were in pvp 🙃

funny enough, I have no problem killing most eles now 🤔

[SleepyBat.9034]

On 12/19/2022 at 4:40 PM, solemn.9670 said:

There are next to no eles in WvW and when you do see one they're either montage fodder/terrible or running much more than just celestial because they're unkillable bunkers who do little damage or only condi damage.

Are you delusional or something? I see them all the time.

[Gehenna.3625]

11 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Are you delusional or something? I see them all the time.

Yeah I see them more and more as well. 

[aspirine.6852]

13 hours ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Are you delusional or something? I see them all the time.

Indeed, I see many catalyst, core and tempests. Not a lot of weavers anymore.

[apharma.3741]

Celestial stats aren't broken on every class, it's only on a few general classes and some very specific specs, try running celestial on deadeye/daredevil/DH/mirage/reaper/most core classes etc and you might do OK but there are much better stats to run. Elementalist and Engineers have generally made the best use of celestial as classes but other specs with the following stand a good chance of being strong or broken:

1. Good power scaling AND conditions on weapon skills/traits.
2. Good might stacking.
3. Lots of small and decent scaling heals or good scaling on 1.
4. Protection and fury access, other boons like quickness, vigor, and regen are also excellent for celestial.

What is really broken is "perfect stats" and is one thing the core game did really well at trying to combat until we got dire and it was downhill to minstrel, trailblazer and now celestial's current iteration. Think about it, full zerk soulbeast can 100-0 most classes that don't have high armour and protection, even if you avoid the rapid fire there's follow up 6k autos (4K + 2K OWP) while it's got active defences to stay ranged. Minstrel builds just won't die without excessing CC or high poison application and trailblazer is utterly insane for condition heavy builds.
So why is celestial so promenant now? Look at the list, that discribes nearly every expansion spec since PoF until we had the hard reset from CMC a few years back and now we're seeing a rolling back of that reset. Now we're seeing these elite specs that can make use of 5-7 of those celestial stats with no viable alternative in the mix and match pool of stats.

[SleepyBat.9034]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

Celestial stats aren't broken on every class, it's only on a few general classes and some very specific specs, try running celestial on deadeye/daredevil/DH/mirage/reaper/most core classes etc and you might do OK but there are much better stats to run. Elementalist and Engineers have generally made the best use of celestial as classes but other specs with the following stand a good chance of being strong or broken:

1. Good power scaling AND conditions on weapon skills/traits.
2. Good might stacking.
3. Lots of small and decent scaling heals or good scaling on 1.
4. Protection and fury access, other boons like quickness, vigor, and regen are also excellent for celestial.

What is really broken is "perfect stats" and is one thing the core game did really well at trying to combat until we got dire and it was downhill to minstrel, trailblazer and now celestial's current iteration. Think about it, full zerk soulbeast can 100-0 most classes that don't have high armour and protection, even if you avoid the rapid fire there's follow up 6k autos (4K + 2K OWP) while it's got active defences to stay ranged. Minstrel builds just won't die without excessing CC or high poison application and trailblazer is utterly insane for condition heavy builds.
So why is celestial so promenant now? Look at the list, that discribes nearly every expansion spec since PoF until we had the hard reset from CMC a few years back and now we're seeing a rolling back of that reset. Now we're seeing these elite specs that can make use of 5-7 of those celestial stats with no viable alternative in the mix and match pool of stats.

Celestial stats can be used quite well on Necromancer and Daredevil, especially Harbinger. I think another thing that can make a broken class is having a lot of traits that give extra stats.

[Jski.6180]

5 hours ago, aspirine.6852 said:

Indeed, I see many catalyst, core and tempests. Not a lot of weavers anymore.

Flashy skills do tend to show up more in our minds. Image if "stand your ground" or realty any other gurd shout had the same flash as the ele class you would see nothing but gurds hehe.

Its a very loaded point they are making and has nothing to do with balancing.

[Silinsar.6298]

7 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Celestial stats can be used quite well on Necromancer and Daredevil, especially Harbinger. I think another thing that can make a broken class is having a lot of traits that give extra stats.

Anything that can make up for the "loss" of damage usually thrives with cele. Be it strong hybrid damage, damage amplifying boons and/or traits. It used to much more of a defensive stat choice. Condi and boon duration is what pushes it over the top in most cases, because they are too potent amplifiers for both offense and defense.

[Jski.6180]

6 minutes ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

Anything that can make up for the "loss" of damage usually thrives with cele. Be it strong hybrid damage, damage amplifying boons and/or traits. It used to much more of a defensive stat choice. Condi and boon duration is what pushes it over the top in most cases, because they are too potent amplifiers for both offense and defense.

In the wvw environment hybrid dmg is more base off of being able to cover condi dmg on top of have strong burst dmg. Ele only have 2 condi dmg types and non spamly cover condis hold the class back a lot for full on cele being end all be all. Necro gets more out of cele as well as gurd. Most ppl do not know how to build the ele class so most ppl simply play cele by default it dose not make it good to run in wvw.

Out side of trying to get Pemra strong boons like alactiry and quickenss boon duration is mostly worthless and condi duration only has an real use vs ppl who dont have condi clears and that offten means death in wvw.

[apharma.3741]

5 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

In the wvw environment hybrid dmg is more base off of being able to cover condi dmg on top of have strong burst dmg. Ele only have 2 condi dmg types and non spamly cover condis hold the class back a lot for full on cele being end all be all. Necro gets more out of cele as well as gurd. Most ppl do not know how to build the ele class so most ppl simply play cele by default it dose not make it good to run in wvw.

Out side of trying to get Pemra strong boons like alactiry and quickenss boon duration is mostly worthless and condi duration only has an real use vs ppl who dont have condi clears and that offten means death in wvw.

It really depends on the builds, you can run cele on every class and spec and most will work due to celestial having so many stats that whatever would be optimal still has a boost over no stats, that doesn't make it optimal though. In my example I say DE, yes you can run a hybrid celestial DE but you would farm more players and do more on marauder/zerk mix, same for reaper, soulbeast, core mesmer etc etc.