Piece of Unidentified Gear and/or Crests/Medallions etc. are NOT rewards..

[Mungrul.9358]

I doubt they'd do it, but something that might help shore up the early-to-midgame rewards is if whenever you get a piece of gear that you haven't previously unlocked, you get a free transmutation charge.

 

Mind you, given that another recent study in the UK is recommending that loot boxes should be restricted to those who are 18 or older (following the lead of Belgium, etc.), I think it may be time for ANet to look at retiring Black Lion Chests and making the things exclusive to them either available for direct purchase in the Gem store, or as rare drops.

 

Better to get ahead of the curve and drop loot boxes before worldwide adoption of legislation, than to drag your heels and end up looking like someone who is intentionally exploiting children for cash.

 

This would free up all sorts of interesting things, such as permanent contracts and gathering glyphs.

[Kozumi.5816]

EoD is basically End of Rewards because lack of rewards have been an issue in everything added since it was released.

Game is said to be "horizontal progression" but I find that it's zero progression. It used to have tons of cool things to grind towards, but that stopped after EoD.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[Kozumi.5816]

On 12/19/2022 at 10:45 PM, Ashen.2907 said:

Ultimately I think ANet bit off more than they could chew with a cosmetic reward and horizontal progression system. They cannot come close to producing cosmetics, nor introduce meaningful masteries, at a rate that satisfy the desire for rewards that dont feel like just another few coppers en route to that 1k gold purchase. 

 

They made masteries too easy and free. For example, I finished progressing fishing before I fished a single time, that's wrong.

They do add cosmetics waaay too slow even in the cash shop only.

Overall, even including the cash shop, there's so few rewards added since EoD that the game feels like a one and done single player game.

  

On 12/20/2022 at 4:46 AM, McWelp.1723 said:

Thats the price you pay for horizontal progression. Loot is just not that interesting in this game. Its just do stuff -> open containers -> dump whatever you got to material storage (and salvage the rest).

Loot is mostly cosmetic after lv80 for most of the players.

FF11 had horizontal  for 15 years and gear was fun and there was never an end. Anet just failed at the concept.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[Mungrul.9358]

5 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Game is said to be "horizontal progression" but I find that it's zero progression. It used to have tons of cool things to grind towards, but that stopped after EoD.

It's kinda been that way since release. Making my first legendary way back way, I was disappointed that after I completed all the "interesting" stuff, I was then expected to complete it by grinding for materials (or, as tuned by ANet, converting gems to gold to buy them from the TP).

 

A lot of end-game items feature a soulless grind component, cynically designed to "encourage" users to buy gold.

[Sobx.1758]

It's just another source of gold/materials. Seems like a reward to me.

[Khisanth.2948]

5 hours ago, Dreams.3128 said:

Now am I saying to make ALL end-game items prestige? No, but some sprinkled here or there wouldn't hurt either.

This has the same problem as the people complaining about drops.

Implementing things that supports these goals create their own problems. Problems that are arguably worse than what they are solving. For example with the prestige thing you would need to make it completely inaccessible to the vast majority of players. If you want that prestige to endure you also have to make that inaccessibility endure.

Edited December 21, 2022 by Khisanth.2948

[Drakz.7051]

Their sole purpose just seems to be to sell or to break down for mats (to sell). Same goes for exotic gear since by the time you actually get it as a drop it is either not the stats you need or you've already bought a full set with the amount you've made from sell all the trash.

This is the unfortunate side effect of horizontal progression, once you get a full set of any set of exotic gear then you are basically done (in terms of none high tier instanced content).

[Rogue.8235]

14 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

I'm about as confused by the reaction to my post as my post seems to have been. 

I didn't argue for vertical progression, nor more super rare RNG drops. In fact I don't like either of those things at all, for all the same reasons you listed here. 

All I did was to explain why the loot system of GW2 is the pretty lacklustre way it is, and inquiring about what the OP would actually like to see done differently. 

 

For me personally, the way GW2 is designed (no gear treadmill, no subscription fee, comparatively very fair business model, very slow rate of invalidating content/creep of player tools, etc.) is 100% worth the bland loot system that resulted from that design. 

That doesn't change that it's a bland loot system though - idk why it seems so controversial to state that. 

 

I know subtlety is largely lost on people these days (in favour of with us or against us pile on mentality), but I can both call something bad as well as appreciate and even defend the reasons for why it is that way. 

 

Being one of those, me neither. But I'm still curious about the opinions of those likely to disagree with me, in search for points to potentially inform and evolve my own. That doesn't make me member of club vertical progression or rng drops.

 

I think you hit on a fundamental, underlying issue.  Thus far, all discussion concerning progression has been in terms of "things" such as gear and whatnot.  While this isn't what you're saying, you do bring up the problem in the perceived blandness of loot.  The pattern I see here is that there is a general mindset that players want new, shiny things (be it cosmetic, better stats, etc.).   

I'm not saying you, personally, think the loot system is a problem in need of a solution.  I'd just like to point out a pattern that I'm seeing.  Essentially, players want a perpetual influx of new, interesting "things" (things is always in quotes because we're talking about virtual items that don't actually exist).  The biggest flaw, or rather limitation, here is the same as the American business model faces:  Growth cannot be infinite.  It is impossible to have an infinite influx of new, exciting, and interesting loot, because it would require perpetual creation of new, interesting, and exciting loot.  There is no organization that can sustain that level of exorbitant growth.

 

Essentially, no matter how "interesting," "exciting," or "valuable" loot is defined, they all have the same requirement, which is the infinite creation of new things.  I'm not aware of any human or human-run organization that is capable of doing this.  This premise subsumes the aforementioned discussion of the paradox of a stat-based progression system which does not actually change the end-state of the game.

(this last bit is directed at everyone, not any one person)

 

[McWelp.1723]

19 hours ago, Rogue.8235 said:

If the argument is that you (collectively) want drops that have better stats, well that is really the status quo masquerading as change.  Players will perpetually obtain gear with bigger numbers to fight foes with bigger numbers.  Ultimately, the proportion of damage is the same.  If not, then all players will eventually be able to one shot everything with a single auto.  Stat-based vertical progression is merely the progression of damage numbers with the same end-state.  Nothing effectively changes.

Maybe they should sprinkle bit more ascended drops to open world events, so semi casuals could get some (especially armor) upgrades through loot.

For example, I have been playing this game maybe 3 or so years and never seen single ascended piece drop as loot in open world, which makes me think it might be bit too rare.

 

[Asum.4960]

1 hour ago, Rogue.8235 said:

 

I think you hit on a fundamental, underlying issue.  Thus far, all discussion concerning progression has been in terms of "things" such as gear and whatnot.  While this isn't what you're saying, you do bring up the problem in the perceived blandness of loot.  The pattern I see here is that there is a general mindset that players want new, shiny things (be it cosmetic, better stats, etc.).   

I'm not saying you, personally, think the loot system is a problem in need of a solution.  I'd just like to point out a pattern that I'm seeing.  Essentially, players want a perpetual influx of new, interesting "things" (things is always in quotes because we're talking about virtual items that don't actually exist).  The biggest flaw, or rather limitation, here is the same as the American business model faces:  Growth cannot be infinite.  It is impossible to have an infinite influx of new, exciting, and interesting loot, because it would require perpetual creation of new, interesting, and exciting loot.  There is no organization that can sustain that level of exorbitant growth.

 

Essentially, no matter how "interesting," "exciting," or "valuable" loot is defined, they all have the same requirement, which is the infinite creation of new things.  I'm not aware of any human or human-run organization that is capable of doing this.  This premise subsumes the aforementioned discussion of the paradox of a stat-based progression system which does not actually change the end-state of the game.

(this last bit is directed at everyone, not any one person)

 

That's what I meant with Anet having shot themselves in the foot in terms of the loot system (not to say not justifieably so). Even within horizontal progression and cosmetics being the primary endgame rewards, if they for example had stuck to humans only as playable race like with GW1 and/or even hadn't gone for this Light, Medium and Heavy armor concept, they in turn could have created vastly more different cosmetics. 

 

Instead of for example Strikes just getting the one single Runic Armor set, for 3 different weight classes and 5 races - they could have potentially done a new unique Armor set for every Strike, Raid, Fractal, major Meta-Event, and so on, to earn. 

Instead of a handful sets per expansion having to be created for all those variations, they could have focused on creating drastically more unique rewards and drops littered everywhere - not to last infinitely ofc, but potentially more than enough for most players to not run out of things to go for before the next content drop with the next set of to them compelling rewards. 

 

If a largely cosmetic shop hadn't also been the primary business model, all of those cosmetics could have found their way into the game as loot and content/achievement rewards.

 

But that's the thing, there are no infinite resources and everything has it's price/tradeoff.

The different Races and Armor types, the fair and largely cosmetics based business model, the horizontal progression, and so on, all provide their own value appreciated by many.

There isn't an objective answer here about what the best approach is, and I'm personally glad for most of the choices they made regarding these points.

 

It's just that the combination of choices they made left little room for exciting loot and directly ingame earnable rewards. 

That can be all true, unfortunate, worth it, partially worth it or not worth it - to different players with different priorities and interests - at the same time. 

 

Some are perfectly happy with the loot and reward systems as is, and many others will each have their own thing(s) that they wish Anet had compromised on in favour of more in this regard. 

The only thing for sure is that one can't have it all, and that one can't make everyone happy with the sacrifices made in one area for the investments into others. 

 

I think it's valid to criticise GW2's reward systems, it is imo pretty terrible, but it's also important to understand why it is that way, and to appreciate what GW2 all has instead.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Asum.4960

[The Boz.2038]

7 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Instead of for example Strikes just getting the one single Runic Armor set, for 3 different weight classes and 5 races - they could have potentially done a new unique Armor set for every Strike, Raid, Fractal, major Meta-Event, and so on, to earn. 

Instead of a handful sets per expansion having to be created for all those variations, they could have focused on creating drastically more unique rewards and drops littered everywhere - not to last infinitely ofc, but potentially more than enough for most players to not run out of things to go for before the next content drop with the next set of to them compelling rewards. 

Wait...
All your idea boils down to is... "Instead of x amount of effort, they could have done six times x, and that would have resulted in more stuff"
How is this at all a solution to anything?

[Khisanth.2948]

10 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Wait...
All your idea boils down to is... "Instead of x amount of effort, they could have done six times x, and that would have resulted in more stuff"
How is this at all a solution to anything?

You forgot the previous paragraph.

7 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

if they for example had stuck to humans only as playable race like with GW1 and/or even hadn't gone for this Light, Medium and Heavy armor

So instead of 3x5 sets of effort resulting in only 1 set being added to the game you get 15 sets for the same effort.

[The Boz.2038]

Still a case of "If we juggle the content to get less stuff, we get more stuff"

Hey, I know! Instead of 15 sets, we could have had 30 different swords! 30 > 15, yo!

[Shuzuru.3651]

2 hours ago, Khisanth.2948 said:

You forgot the previous paragraph.

So instead of 3x5 sets of effort resulting in only 1 set being added to the game you get 15 sets for the same effort.

Well, in this case, I have an even better proposition, you could also remove all the men because everyone knows the human female meta is the only valid option, so you could even double the number of set, going from 15 to 30 for the same effort 😄

[Asum.4960]

4 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Wait...
All your idea boils down to is... "Instead of x amount of effort, they could have done six times x, and that would have resulted in more stuff"
How is this at all a solution to anything?

I wasn't presenting an idea or solution, I was making a point. 

Try reading my entire post, and with a good faith mindset - constantly having to argue and go get someone must be tiring.

 

[Einsof.1457]

On 12/19/2022 at 9:45 PM, Ashen.2907 said:

I have goals that center around a need for large amounts of gold. No drop in the game feels exciting or even rewarding, but over time enough of them contribute to my long term goals. Not fun. In any way. But by thinking about my goal rather than the drops from my current play session I get by.

Ultimately I think ANet bit off more than they could chew with a cosmetic reward and horizontal progression system. They cannot come close to producing cosmetics, nor introduce meaningful masteries, at a rate that satisfy the desire for rewards that dont feel like just another few coppers en route to that 1k gold purchase. 

 

I'm sort of the opposite. My goal is similar but I keep that goal out of focus and just play to have fun.. eventually I get what I need to get what I want. It is possible for the fun of playing to be its own reward. If you're not having fun, it's a job, and that's not good. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Einsof.1457

[Ashen.2907]

6 hours ago, Einsof.1457 said:

I'm sort of the opposite. My goal is similar but I keep that goal out of focus and just play to have fun.. eventually I get what I need to get what I want. It is possible for the fun of playing to be its own reward. If you're not having fun, it's a job, and that's not good. 

I think I expressed my point poorly. I meant that when I am inclined to think about rewards I focus on my goal rather than an individual drop. Otherwise I just play what sounds fun for any given session. Sometimes I will choose content that specifically feeds into my goals when deciding between multiple options that sound fun. For example, I ended up with enough skirmish tickets to buy legendary armor without even realizing it until a friend asked me how many I had and then told me that I had enough for two sets. 

[Hindenburg.3415]

On 12/20/2022 at 5:45 AM, Ashen.2907 said:

I have goals that center around a need for large amounts of gold. No drop in the game feels exciting or even rewarding, but over time enough of them contribute to my long term goals. Not fun. In any way. But by thinking about my goal rather than the drops from my current play session I get by.

Ultimately I think ANet bit off more than they could chew with a cosmetic reward and horizontal progression system. They cannot come close to producing cosmetics, nor introduce meaningful masteries, at a rate that satisfy the desire for rewards that dont feel like just another few coppers en route to that 1k gold purchase. 

 

 

As a person without a single legendary I can understand.

My whole bank is like 800g in mats and 300 in cash.

And in order to make that gold you need to farm group content like t4 fractals or spend many hours in Drizzlewood or something.

I don't want to do either of those things.

So I just kind of gave up on legendaries.

 

But I still like gw2 loot system.

One of the healthiest economies I ever seen.

 

[Holmindeboks.3490]

the only way of receiving a reward is do contend over and over again and saving little gold for a few years and then buy what you want. i am also annoyed with the effort reward ratio, EoD strikes are 5 times longer then previous strikes but the reward is worse. 
i just logged in on my second account (this one where i typ with) and i instantly got the expansion logos on the right of the screen. 
they keep trying, but if i don't get nice loot i won't spend any euro again on this game. 
if i loot something worth 2k+ that i can sell then i am in a mood to spend money again. but not now. eveywhere i see ppl show off their loot, chak egg infusions, or someone looted 2x perma contract from bl chests. and i keep trying now and then without any reward, feels like they want my money. or some person here on the forum just played 2 months and looted a chak infusion :@ 
this feels bad. i am a loot player in mmo. no nice loot let me play less.

also pve compared to wvw or pvp is unfair, ppl do wvw and that their game mode they like and get many mystic clovers. or a reward track to finish 1 living world season map, and a pve player can do 1 * whole story with all achievements. this is way harder because not all achievements are easy, ice beast 2 achievements (not getting frozen, and kill within 5 minutes) way harder for pver then just play wvw and do what you like.

[Khisanth.2948]

37 minutes ago, Hindenburg.3415 said:

As a person without a single legendary I can understand.

My whole bank is like 800g in mats and 300 in cash.

And in order to make that gold you need to farm group content like t4 fractals or spend many hours in Drizzlewood or something.

I don't want to do either of those things.

So I just kind of gave up on legendaries.

You don't need to do any of those things to make a legendary. They just speed things up.

~900g for gen1, accessories, rings and back items are in the same ballpark

~1400g for gen2 full set of pvp legendary armor(can subtract ~200g since you won't actually need to use any mystic coins)

~1200g for gen3, full set of raid legendary armor

daily + home instance(just LS nodes plus mithril and platinum) + guild hall gathering and selling whatever overflows material storage(250) generates ~100g/month. That does not include the mystic coins and chest of loyalty from the login reward.

[Milo.3840]

On 12/21/2022 at 3:57 AM, Rogue.8235 said:

 

 

 

 

There are things in the game, such as Chak Egg Sac,  which are "exciting" drops. 

 

Even more cosmetic drops like that would be a huge upgrade from constantly getting greens. I'm not saying stat progression here at all, just some sort of unique option LIKE RUNES/SIGILS that can only be aquired AND ARE ACCOUNT BOUND through metas/raids/etc.

 

As for people lecturing me on salvaging and crafting, I have completed the Agent of Entropy achievement (salvage 200 items) 21,319 times, I'm no pleb when it comes to crafting and have made tons of gold from buying off the trading post not from a few pieces doing a meta. I buy stacks on stacks of 70-80 greens from the TP for and use my runecrafter's salvage-o-matic to craft runes/sigils etc and then the raw materials to craft and sell gear. The amount of items I have to salvage to do that cannot be aquired through a meta nearly as easily as I can buy them from the TP.

 

I just want something meaningful to be a possible reward from doing content, like tons more of Chak Egg Sac type things and ESPECIALLY unique ascended gear akin to what drops from Triple Trouble. The unique gear I mentioned above would be nice, but I know that won't ever happen. They didn't even add new Armor Runes to the expansion for the new specializations for some reason.

[mythical.6315]

Would you prefer 10 pieces of loot spread out across 60 min or 10 pieces of loot all at once followed by 60 min of no loot?  While the loot may seem to have no value at the individual level, it does add up.

[Linken.6345]

4 hours ago, Milo.3840 said:

Even more cosmetic drops like that would be a huge upgrade from constantly getting greens. I'm not saying stat progression here at all, just some sort of unique option LIKE RUNES/SIGILS that can only be aquired AND ARE ACCOUNT BOUND through metas/raids/etc.

 

As for people lecturing me on salvaging and crafting, I have completed the Agent of Entropy achievement (salvage 200 items) 21,319 times, I'm no pleb when it comes to crafting and have made tons of gold from buying off the trading post not from a few pieces doing a meta. I buy stacks on stacks of 70-80 greens from the TP for and use my runecrafter's salvage-o-matic to craft runes/sigils etc and then the raw materials to craft and sell gear. The amount of items I have to salvage to do that cannot be aquired through a meta nearly as easily as I can buy them from the TP.

 

I just want something meaningful to be a possible reward from doing content, like tons more of Chak Egg Sac type things and ESPECIALLY unique ascended gear akin to what drops from Triple Trouble. The unique gear I mentioned above would be nice, but I know that won't ever happen. They didn't even add new Armor Runes to the expansion for the new specializations for some reason.

You know what is not a reward these two OP

You need two of the first one if you want to craft two wvw legendary rings after that they are less then trash.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Emblem_of_the_Conqueror

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Emblem_of_the_Avenger

[Gehenna.3625]

On 12/21/2022 at 3:19 PM, Kozumi.5816 said:

EoD is basically End of Rewards because lack of rewards have been an issue in everything added since it was released.

Game is said to be "horizontal progression" but I find that it's zero progression. It used to have tons of cool things to grind towards, but that stopped after EoD.

Well "cool" is highly subjective. There are the gen3 legendary weapons and their alternate skins. I don't personally care for them, but they are things to grind towards.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

That trash loot you complain about is 30g/hour and can buy an entire legendary every few weeks.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Mariyuuna.6508