My Suggestion For a Mechanist Revamp.

[Corvolupo.5708]

5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Notice how mech brings conc in its alac dps build, but you refuse to do so because you need to get more dps. It is really nothing more than the choice you're making (it doesn't really hurt the damage as much as you apparently think it does, you're still meaningfully contributing -but who knows what you mean by that vague "a lot").

I never said that i don't bring conc in my Gear. In fact i was talking about Hybrid, and Power Q scrapper have around 50% conc bonus and It Is still spam your superspeed to get Quickness. However, when i Say: "a lot" i'm talking about 3500 / 4500 golem whise.

[Strixxe.2019]

So essentially scrapper but gyros shoots back? I think class uniqueness went out of window there.

[Kulvar.1239]

For a good revamp of mechanist :

• Make mecha work underwater
• Keep the toolbelt except F5
• F5 toggle commanding mech and using toolbelt (F1/F2/F3/F4)
• Replace Signets (these are suggestions of new effects)
  • Rectifier Signet
    • The mech heal itself and allies and remove conditions on itself and allies
    • Toolbelt: Heal yourself and remove conditions
  • Barrier Signet
    • The mech generate a projectile-blocking dome around itself that give allies barrier every second.
    • Toolbelt: Give a big barrier to allies around you
  • Shift Signet
    • The mech shadowstep to your target location, or yourself if you don't have any target, and grant Swiftness
    • Toolbelt: Breaks stun on allies and grant Swiftness
  • Force Signet
    • The mech pull foes toward it
    • Toolbelt: Knockback foes away from you
  • Superconducting Signet
    • The mech create a field that applies conditions
    • Toolbelt: Make your next attacks unblockable.
  • Jade Buster Cannon become
    • Unchanged

Edited December 29, 2022 by Kulvar.1239

[Corvolupo.5708]

-Remove the signets.

-Give engi his toolbelt back.

-Give the mech a proper position tool in the form of 3 commands: stay there, go there, follow. (Passive/aggressive are still here).

-Rework the mace to a mid range weapon 600/900 remote controller like (i'm a Genius why do i have to bonk everyone in my various elite forms) and replace his skills with 3 types of mech attacks.

[xellink.7568]

Speaking of Mecha and real estate space. I thought of a good idea to save the screen space without reducing the size of the Mecha. 

 

When 5 Mechas come within proximity to each other, f5 becomes a prominent key.  Press f5 and all the mechs will combine into a giant robot. 

 

That way you have 4 less robots but retain or even gain a damage bonus. 

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

There are several fundamental flaws with the current mech design. I've read through several threads on this and the mech defender arguments tend to boil down to ease of use while downplaying how utterly broken the current design is while claiming that the overplay of mechanist just means it is good design. I play primarily as an engineer, scrapper mostly, but I swap into mechanist because it trivializes content when I don't feel like doing a lot of things. Even soloing content that isn't normally meant to be solo'd on average (at least by a lay person) the mech trivializes outside of a few cheap boss mechanics.

 

The thing that makes me laugh is the number of people believing the mechanist would some how become undesirable post nerf, because a range limit some how was a nerf to them. Barely a slap on the wrist.

 

So, here are a few of the problems of mechanist and if people think mechanist got nerfed, scrapper really says high to you from your pedestal there.

 

First problem - Mechs health pool. They have a rather large health pool (47k on my engineer in my berserking gear) and this thing is sturdiest thing out there. Add on top of that the ultimate allows you to resummon a downed mech before the cooldown even comes close to expiring and you really have a ridiculously overpowered pet. Solution - Reduce the mechs health, it shouldn't be a super sponge.

 

Second problem - Mechs have ridiculous stability. Doesn't matter the CC; they can't be knocked, feared, or any other effect that will impair the engineer without stability. This means even when the engineer is running their head off, the mech will still be punching away or pewpewing away, and even with the range nerf this is still a constant stream of damage and effects that can be triggered when normally they can't be in any other set up. Solution - Mechs should not be immune to most forms of CC constantly.

 

Third problem - Mechanist signets are just way stronger than signets of any other class out there. Where as most other classes lose the passive buff on their signets when used the mechanist keeps the buff and gains the benefit of the effect after use. This is just fundamentally broken when other classes have to choose between passive effects or an active one, especially when a lot of classes don't benefit from a pet taking focus. Why should the mechanist be allowed this with an already ridiculously strong pet? Solution - Mechanist signets should act like other signets in that when activated the passive effect should be deactivated or all other class signets should keep their passives active too.

 

Fourth problem - Walking alacrity buff. All you see for is a call for HAMs now, no one asks for any other alacrity class, at least in my experience. Worse this nearly considered crtiical buff is not spread out between all the support based classes. I am sure a lot of scrappers out there would prefer to be more than just walking quickness dispensers, since they typically get hit with a nerf bat on the regular (and ANet still threatening the fact they plan to change gyros down the line anyways). Solution - Really isn't one other than propagating alacrity to other builds and not just one specific build or spec. Also making it easier to use alacrity on other builds instead of some really silly methods that are either too time consuming or too niche to actually be useful. Alacrity calls should not always be demanding HAMs, this is a problem in itself.

 

I've played a lot of pet classes, ranging from good to really awful, and mechanist, by far, has outstripped them all. Even being stronger than the tamer from Ultima Online back in the day. This class requires so little input from the mechanist and there is no moment you are in a situation of having to choose between saving something or using it. The idea that some how that using manual input over autofire will make a significant difference in DPS is also absurd as well. The only time those will matter is defiance breaking, which mechanist can already get some heavy hitting in with either mace and shield or rifle as well.

 

The defense of the current mechanist setup is a weak one. When a class requires near zero input to play then that is a problem, and when a large number of people have been rolling one up because of how little it requires to play, then yes, that is a problem. The class is significantly overperforming, and it's a veritable fact players gravitate to what's easiest not what is balanced. And if that means a broken overpowered class, well guess what. If one of the so-called piano classes started doing huge damage and were breaking the game you can bet your last dollar that you would see a shift to that class, and you have in the past.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[Kuma.1503]

Thi

On 1/1/2023 at 4:00 PM, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

There are several fundamental flaws with the current mech design. I've read through several threads on this and the mech defender arguments tend to boil down to ease of use while downplaying how utterly broken the current design is while claiming that the overplay of mechanist just means it is good design. I play primarily as an engineer, scrapper mostly, but I swap into mechanist because it trivializes content when I don't feel like doing a lot of things. Even soloing content that isn't normally meant to be solo'd on average (at least by a lay person) the mech trivializes outside of a few cheap boss mechanics.

 

The thing that makes me laugh is the number of people believing the mechanist would some how become undesirable post nerf, because a range limit some how was a nerf to them. Barely a slap on the wrist.

 

So, here are a few of the problems of mechanist and if people think mechanist got nerfed, scrapper really says high to you from your pedestal there.

 

First problem - Mechs health pool. They have a rather large health pool (47k on my engineer in my berserking gear) and this thing is sturdiest thing out there. Add on top of that the ultimate allows you to resummon a downed mech before the cooldown even comes close to expiring and you really have a ridiculously overpowered pet. Solution - Reduce the mechs health, it shouldn't be a super sponge.

 

Second problem - Mechs have ridiculous stability. Doesn't matter the CC; they can't be knocked, feared, or any other effect that will impair the engineer without stability. This means even when the engineer is running their head off, the mech will still be punching away or pewpewing away, and even with the range nerf this is still a constant stream of damage and effects that can be triggered when normally they can't be in any other set up. Solution - Mechs should not be immune to most forms of CC constantly.

 

Third problem - Mechanist signets are just way stronger than signets of any other class out there. Where as most other classes lose the passive buff on their signets when used the mechanist keeps the buff and gains the benefit of the effect after use. This is just fundamentally broken when other classes have to choose between passive effects or an active one, especially when a lot of classes don't benefit from a pet taking focus. Why should the mechanist be allowed this with an already ridiculously strong pet? Solution - Mechanist signets should act like other signets in that when activated the passive effect should be deactivated or all other class signets should keep their passives active too.

 

Fourth problem - Walking alacrity buff. All you see for is a call for HAMs now, no one asks for any other alacrity class, at least in my experience. Worse this nearly considered crtiical buff is not spread out between all the support based classes. I am sure a lot of scrappers out there would prefer to be more than just walking quickness dispensers, since they typically get hit with a nerf bat on the regular (and ANet still threatening the fact they plan to change gyros down the line anyways). Solution - Really isn't one other than propagating alacrity to other builds and not just one specific build or spec. Also making it easier to use alacrity on other builds instead of some really silly methods that are either too time consuming or too niche to actually be useful. Alacrity calls should not always be demanding HAMs, this is a problem in itself.

 

I've played a lot of pet classes, ranging from good to really awful, and mechanist, by far, has outstripped them all. Even being stronger than the tamer from Ultima Online back in the day. This class requires so little input from the mechanist and there is no moment you are in a situation of having to choose between saving something or using it. The idea that some how that using manual input over autofire will make a significant difference in DPS is also absurd as well. The only time those will matter is defiance breaking, which mechanist can already get some heavy hitting in with either mace and shield or rifle as well.

 

The defense of the current mechanist setup is a weak one. When a class requires near zero input to play then that is a problem, and when a large number of people have been rolling one up because of how little it requires to play, then yes, that is a problem. The class is significantly overperforming, and it's a veritable fact players gravitate to what's easiest not what is balanced. And if that means a broken overpowered class, well guess what. If one of the so-called piano classes started doing huge damage and were breaking the game you can bet your last dollar that you would see a shift to that class, and you have in the past.

Some well articulated and laid out points. I see where you're coming from, but here are my objections to the points you've given. 

 

Point 1 - Mechanist's Health

Jade Mechs in PvE boast a large health pool. While they can die in some encounters (such as Sequana Peak CM), they're more durable than other pets. 

However, this is balanced by the fact that:

1. The mechanist is weaker than all other pet users when it does go down. (Note: HAM doesn't run overclock signet)

2. Unlike every other pet user, the engineer only has one pet. 

3. More of the engineer's power budget is given to the pet to balance out its power. 

4. Unlike Ranger, we cannot instant revive our pet, or pet swap when our pet dies. 

 

These four trade-offs balance out its large HP pool. Bringing the hp down would require Arena Net to make the Engineer less dependent on the pet to compensate. For example, giving access to toolbelts when the mech is away. 

 

Point 2 - Mech Stability 

This does not exist in WvW/PvP so I will only talk about PvE here. 

The Mech is CC immune while other pets are not. Rangers, for example, can have their pets ragdolled around while our Mech can keep on trucking no matter what. 

This is a very powerful trait to have in a pet class, however there are reasons for its existance. 

The mech has the some of lenghtiest cast times of any pet class. Many of these also root the mech in place for an extended period of time. With how much CC flies around in PvE, this would make getting off your mech skills extremely frustrating. 

Other pet skills tend to have quicker cast times, and don't punish the player nearly as much if they are canceled. If we look at fire wyvern for example, it's f1 has a very long channel time, but the pet evades during its entire duration. 

Our pet skills contain a lot of our value. 

If this needs to be nerfed, one solution would be to turn mech skills into commands. Lock them out if the player is CC'd. This will require the player to position better to get off their mech skills while avoiding frustrating scenarios where the mech can't get of a single cast. 

 

Third Problem - Mech signets

Mech signets are absolutely stronger than other classes signets. However, it is untrue that keeping signets on cooldown is a unique effect that only mechanist has. 

Elementalist, for example, can do the same by running the trait Written in Stone

Signets compete with kits for a utility slot, and currently the balance between the two are good. Kits require more effort to use, but will generally pull ahead of a signet. 

HAM only runs one signet, and Condi mech can replace super conductor signet with an extra kit for a dps increase. 

Heal Signet is swapped out for med kit on HAM for group utility. 

Other utilities such as Throw mine, and rocket boots also find a use in place of signets. 

The important factor at the end of the day isn't that Engi signets are as strong as Other class signets

It's that Engi is balanced around these signets AND they don't crowd out other utility options. 

They currently do not crowd out our other utility options... the good ones anyway (RIP turrets)

 

Problem 4 - The Alacrity 

 

HAM is the best alac provider, but there's a very good reason for it, and it's not a flaw with HAM. 

The reason is that the Alac generation is fluid, and it doesn't have to sacrifice its entire utility bar and hit it off CD to provide it. This is a good design because it allows the mech to use its other utility skills reactively/skillfully. You can barrier signet to block incoming damage, Elixir gun to cleanse/heal, mortar kit to blind/heal/CC, ect. 

Compared to scrapper who ends up throwing their ranged res skill to apply quickness, and has to hit each gyro as it comes off CD or its boons fall off. 

This needs to be addressed in other supports. 

 

Druid, is actually a very stacked support right now with great utility, versatility, consistent RANGED healing, great burst healing, immobilize, projectile destruction, burst cleansing, AoE rez power, and more. However spirits are obnoxious and force you to press them all off CD so people dislike playing it. Fixing the issue I layed out above would make Druid a better support than HAM. 

HAT is also close to being great, with some of the best healing, rez power, 25 might generation on its own + vulnerability, rebound, can support from range, and handles high pressure situations very well. It can solo carry groups. 

The problem... The alac generation. If it just pulesed at the start of an overload, it's clunkiness would be reduced to the point where it feels much better to play. 

 

 

tl;dr Mech is fine for the most part. Fix other supports alac generation and you'll see more variety and fewer HAM's. 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

4 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Thi

Some well articulated and laid out points. I see where you're coming from, but here are my objections to the points you've given. 

 

Point 1 - Mechanist's Health

Jade Mechs in PvE boast a large health pool. While they can die in some encounters (such as Sequana Peak CM), they're more durable than other pets. 

However, this is balanced by the fact that:

1. The mechanist is weaker than all other pet users when it does go down. (Note: HAM doesn't run overclock signet)

2. Unlike every other pet user, the engineer only has one pet. 

3. More of the engineer's power budget is given to the pet to balance out its power. 

4. Unlike Ranger, we cannot instant revive our pet, or pet swap when our pet dies. 

 

These four trade-offs balance out its large HP pool. Bringing the hp down would require Arena Net to make the Engineer less dependent on the pet to compensate. For example, giving access to toolbelts when the mech is away. 

 

Point 2 - Mech Stability 

This does not exist in WvW/PvP so I will only talk about PvE here. 

The Mech is CC immune while other pets are not. Rangers, for example, can have their pets ragdolled around while our Mech can keep on trucking no matter what. 

This is a very powerful trait to have in a pet class, however there are reasons for its existance. 

The mech has the some of lenghtiest cast times of any pet class. Many of these also root the mech in place for an extended period of time. With how much CC flies around in PvE, this would make getting off your mech skills extremely frustrating. 

Other pet skills tend to have quicker cast times, and don't punish the player nearly as much if they are canceled. If we look at fire wyvern for example, it's f1 has a very long channel time, but the pet evades during its entire duration. 

Our pet skills contain a lot of our value. 

If this needs to be nerfed, one solution would be to turn mech skills into commands. Lock them out if the player is CC'd. This will require the player to position better to get off their mech skills while avoiding frustrating scenarios where the mech can't get of a single cast. 

 

Third Problem - Mech signets

Mech signets are absolutely stronger than other classes signets. However, it is untrue that keeping signets on cooldown is a unique effect that only mechanist has. 

Elementalist, for example, can do the same by running the trait Written in Stone

Signets compete with kits for a utility slot, and currently the balance between the two are good. Kits require more effort to use, but will generally pull ahead of a signet. 

HAM only runs one signet, and Condi mech can replace super conductor signet with an extra kit for a dps increase. 

Heal Signet is swapped out for med kit on HAM for group utility. 

Other utilities such as Throw mine, and rocket boots also find a use in place of signets. 

The important factor at the end of the day isn't that Engi signets are as strong as Other class signets

It's that Engi is balanced around these signets AND they don't crowd out other utility options. 

The latter could be accomplished by... lets just say... BUFFING TURRETS?

 

Problem 4 - The Alacrity 

 

HAM is the best alac provider, but there's a very good reason for it, and it's not a flaw with HAM. 

The reason is that the Alac generation is fluid, and it doesn't have to sacrifice its entire utility bar and hit it off CD to provide it. This is a good design because it allows the mech to use its other utility skills reactively/skillfully. You can barrier signet to block incoming damage, Elixir gun to cleanse/heal, mortar kit to blind/heal/CC, ect. 

Compared to scrapper who ends up throwing their ranged res skill to apply quickness, and has to hit each gyro as it comes off CD or its boons fall off. 

This needs to be addressed in other supports. 

 

Druid, is actually a very stacked support right now with great utility, versatility, consistent RANGED healing, great burst healing, immobilize, projectile destruction, burst cleansing, AoE rez power, and more. However spirits are obnoxious and force you to press them all off CD so people dislike playing it. Fixing the issue I layed out above would make Druid a better support than HAM. 

HAT is also close to perfect, with some of the best healing, rez power, 25 might generation on its own + vulnerability, rebound, can support from range, and handles high pressure situations very well. It can solo carry groups. 

The problem... The alac generation. If it just pulesed at the start of an overload, it's clunkiness would be reduced to the point where it feels much better to play. 

 

 

tl;dr Mech is fine for the most part. Fix other supports alac generation and you'll see more variety and fewer HAM's. 

 

 

It might be their only pet but the mech will still do global strikes while not on the field. So it's not completely out of commission. So I don't find point 1 to be an adequate reason.

 

Point 2 on stability, the animations are not really an excuse. Lengthy is a bit of an exageration unless you are referring to use the ultimate as an actual attack instead of just a resummon. In fact the simple reality that we can decide what attacks teh mech has is a boon in itself.

 

As for your point three, if the mechanist actually had to give up a trait to keep the signet going you might have a fair point but that point is nullified by that alone. As far as competing with kits, it's not really that big of a competition. Especially on a class that can literally afk most of the time and the mech also can take focus so the only time a mechanist is in any real danger is from AoEs or adds. Comparing to an elementalist is a bit silly since an elementalist not only has to give up a trait line for that effect but to get pets to take focus from them with they have to give up additional utility slots for pets that also have limited duration and questionable use. This isn't even apples to oranges comparison at this point, this is literally trying to give someone a hot dog and tell them they are having a banquet.

 

As far as the alacrity thing, I don't think it's good design. A zero effort class is actually fairly poor design when it requires so little effort to do anything. It might not be the best but it far from just good enough and definitely above average. It's not balanced in the slightest it's just easiest and as usual people will die on a hill when something they perceive as easy or broken is good to them.

[Kuma.1503]

38 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

It might be their only pet but the mech will still do global strikes while not on the field. So it's not completely out of commission. So I don't find point 1 to be an adequate reason.

This requires the trait J-Drive. 

HAM does not run this trait, because they need Barrier Engine for boon upkeep. 

This also means they won't have permenant signets. 

 

 

38 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

 

Point 2 on stability, the animations are not really an excuse. Lengthy is a bit of an exageration unless you are referring to use the ultimate as an actual attack instead of just a resummon. In fact the simple reality that we can decide what attacks teh mech has is a boon in itself.

Jade Canon and Barrier burst are both long to cast, root the mech and place, and you do not want these getting canceled. If the mech is made CCable these cast times need to come down.

Sky circus also takes a fairly long time as the mech flies into the air, and the mech will run into melee range to do it. I don't think having a ranged mech walk into melee, start this channel, and then get knocked down while in mid air is particularly engaging gameplay, perhaps if it was given an evade frame while the mech is flying then it'd be fine. 

38 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

As for your point three, if the mechanist actually had to give up a trait to keep the signet going you might have a fair point but that point is nullified by that alone. As far as competing with kits, it's not really that big of a competition. Especially on a class that can literally afk most of the time and the mech also can take focus so the only time a mechanist is in any real danger is from AoEs or adds. Comparing to an elementalist is a bit silly since an elementalist not only has to give up a trait line for that effect but to get pets to take focus from them with they have to give up additional utility slots for pets that also have limited duration and questionable use. This isn't even apples to oranges comparison at this point, this is literally trying to give someone a hot dog and tell them they are having a banquet.

I mentioned this earlier, but...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mech_Core:_J-Drive

This trait is needed for permanent signets.

You might have been under the false impression that this passive came from Overclock signet? This is a mistake I used to make. 

38 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

 

As far as the alacrity thing, I don't think it's good design. A zero effort class is actually fairly poor design when it requires so little effort to do anything. It might not be the best but it far from just good enough and definitely above average. It's not balanced in the slightest it's just easiest and as usual people will die on a hill when something they perceive as easy or broken is good to them.

I think you're conflating HAM and Condi Mech with power mech. Power Mech is a zero effort build if played in the LI (or some would say NI) style. Mechanist is not a zero effort class. 

HAM has quite a high skill cap to it. 

Look at how firebrands are currently complaining about their tomes and how they can't track their skill cooldowns because they can't see them. 

HAM does that with their kits. They also have to juggle many different buttons and decide which to use at which time. Engi also makes use of the combo system to suppliment their support, going for blast combos in water fields for extra healing, and blast combos in their light field from mortar kit and super elixir for extra cleansing. 

Some of these combos can take good finger dexterity to pull off as you're rapidly opening and dropping kits to do so. 

Condi Mech can also run up to 3 kits for maximum DPS (you normally do this on Condi alac builds) and has a complex rotation + stands in melee.

Unless we're saying a 3 kit build takes no skill to play which is... certainly a hot take. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Kuma.1503
incorrect link

[coro.3176]

"I'm sorry. The revamp queue is currently experiencing high call volume. Estimated wait time is: 10 years, 2 months. If you'd like to make a forum post to save your place in line, please put in a request and we will get back to you!"

[Zzik.5873]

I also have a solution just remove the dump auto cast on f1/f2/f3 -___-

That was literaly the most stupid idea anet ever had for balance... Pressing button in your game is good design anet... 

[Zzik.5873]

On 1/5/2023 at 9:36 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

This requires the trait J-Drive. 

HAM does not run this trait, because they need Barrier Engine for boon upkeep. 

This also means they won't have permenant signets. 

 

 

Jade Canon and Barrier burst are both long to cast, root the mech and place, and you do not want these getting canceled. If the mech is made CCable these cast times need to come down.

Sky circus also takes a fairly long time as the mech flies into the air, and the mech will run into melee range to do it. I don't think having a ranged mech walk into melee, start this channel, and then get knocked down while in mid air is particularly engaging gameplay, perhaps if it was given an evade frame while the mech is flying then it'd be fine. 

I mentioned this earlier, but...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mech_Core:_J-Drive

This trait is needed for permanent signets.

You might have been under the false impression that this passive came from Overclock signet? This is a mistake I used to make. 

I think you're conflating HAM and Condi Mech with power mech. Power Mech is a zero effort build if played in the LI (or some would say NI) style. Mechanist is not a zero effort class. 

HAM has quite a high skill cap to it. 

Look at how firebrands are currently complaining about their tomes and how they can't track their skill cooldowns because they can't see them. 

HAM does that with their kits. They also have to juggle many different buttons and decide which to use at which time. Engi also makes use of the combo system to suppliment their support, going for blast combos in water fields for extra healing, and blast combos in their light field from mortar kit and super elixir for extra cleansing. 

Some of these combos can take good finger dexterity to pull off as you're rapidly opening and dropping kits to do so. 

Condi Mech can also run up to 3 kits for maximum DPS (you normally do this on Condi alac builds) and has a complex rotation + stands in melee.

Unless we're saying a 3 kit build takes no skill to play which is... certainly a hot take. 

Agree with what youve said, anet is balancing engi by listening to people that have no clue how engi work. Power mech is the only easy build and in exchange it has the worst benchmark of pure DPS build. But people still complain, that why we got this stupid infamous november 29 patch.