Guardian Hammer

[Gaiawolf.8261]

10 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Focus doesn't give aegis, do you mean the block mechanic on the 5th skill?

Yes, my bad. Only grants aegis when traited, although block and aegis operate similarly in most situations and for many traits. There are exceptions.

[hash.8462]

5 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Yes, my bad. Only grants aegis when traited, although block and aegis operate similarly in most situations and for many traits. There are exceptions.

Focus Mastery grants protection, not aegis.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

4 hours ago, hash.8462 said:

Focus Mastery grants protection, not aegis.

Communal Defenses grants aegis to 5 allies when you block an attack with Shield of Wrath.

[SleepyBat.9034]

1 hour ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Communal Defenses grants aegis to 5 allies when you block an attack with Shield of Wrath.

I didn't know that trait worked with the focus block, thought it only worked with aegis.

[hash.8462]

56 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I didn't know that trait worked with the focus block, thought it only worked with aegis.

It works with any block, not only with a focus (that is also why I was a bit confused, I was thinking about "traited focus")... it only give aegis to other allies nut not to yourself, so is only useful for party support; also there is the problem that you have to block an attack to make it work, if you are not the target you may not be able to trigger it and if the party is hit by an aoe aegis will be granted only after the hit, a bit problematic to use propriely.

Edited December 27, 2022 by hash.8462

[Gaiawolf.8261]

Communal Defenses is used in some wvw builds that maximize stab and aegis proccs. Best with Mantra of Solace on FB, but other block skills are used with core builds. I almost always prefer shield to focus tho, except when I'm on a strike team targeting the enemy commander. 

 

[Thalanox.7281]

I just had an idea. If we really want to keep the skill functions and animation timing the same for some reason, then would it make sense to significantly buff the damage on the hammer? What I've heard is that in pvp, the actual hit rate of the hammer's attacks is dramatically lower than of the standard weapons' attacks because the swing is so slow, awkwardly telegraphed, and weirdly timed that it's far harder to physically hit the enemy player if they're even trying to dodge. It should be possible to get the hammer's actual damage in line with the other weapons considering the limitations involved in the Hammer's actual connection rate.

This does nothing to address any of the other problems with the hammer's kit or synergies.

[GoingMenthol.7281]

I'm gonna refer (once again) to a post I made a while ago on the problem with hammer's design and some crazy ideas I made up for changing it, please have a look

[Hogwarts Zebra.8597]

AA -- make it the speed of a normal AA chain

2 -- increase leap range to 600

3 -- make the skill actually hit moving targets

4 -- reduce cast time to 0.5s

5 -- now is a 600 range leap that places the ring + a full 5 second symbol of protection upon landing. The ring also blocks projectiles

[draxynnic.3719]

As I've said before, I'm resistant to proposals that involve removing the symbol from the auto chain. Plonking down a symbol every few seconds is part of its character, and it's quite useful in situations where you need sustain more than raw damage. Which makes it fairly niche in PvE, but it does see use in some solo, support, or semi-support builds. When you have as many weapons as guardian has, it's unlikely that they're all going to be mainstream.

Competitive modes do have the 'good luck landing the full chain' issue. Other hammers require similar amounts of time to complete the chain, but they're generally less reliant on doing so and have more control available to pin the target down. With this being the case, hammer in competitive could probably do with a faster auto chain (although this might require shortening the symbol duration somewhat) or improving hammer's snaring capabilities so it's more capable of keeping enemies in position to complete auto chains (and on the symbol when the chain completes).

Or, to think outside the box a little, give the first two steps of the chain a bit more reach so it's harder for enemies to kite out of it.

[Falseprophet.1502]

5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

As I've said before, I'm resistant to proposals that involve removing the symbol from the auto chain. Plonking down a symbol every few seconds is part of its character, and it's quite useful in situations where you need sustain more than raw damage.

 

Then get ready to accept it as never being a truly viable weapon. Having weapons just fill rare niches, like you've detailed, is so antithetical to this game's balance philosophy.  Subsequently, no other guardian weapon functions like this. There is a reason why the most recent "buffs" on 8/23/2022, weren't actually buffs in PvE when they were trying to "help close the gap between it and other damaging weapons." This also debunks this fallacy of this weapon being lumped in the "support category." The reason being that Guardian has too many modifiers that are contingent upon symbol uptime thus meaning it is not worth weaving those skills because it prevents symbol uptime. 

 

Removing the symbol from the AA and then attaching it to the end of Hammer 2 and balancing the damage of the symbol and to last three to four seconds, will not take away this far cry that people have whilst assuming this is some "support" weapon (it's 2023, this isn't a support weapon, maybe it was six years ago when the protection uptime was marginally attractive for fractals or some other instanced content). It would substantially improve this weapon and it would be such an easy fix. 

 

 

[hash.8462]

I don't see the the removal of the symbol from AA as an "easy fix", it will just make the weapon unusable in every part of the game also killing it in the niches that are using it at the mement, unless you do a complete overhaul of skills and traits.

Apart of glacial heart there is no specific hammer's trait because that weapon's damage is traited trough symbols; if you just remove the symbol from there it doesn't matters if the AA chains is as fast as thief dagger AA, you won't even reach the same dps because more than half of the damage is done by the traited symbol itself, and that without all the others buffs that traited symbols can provide.

That weapon is mainly used in solo and random party PvE builds (and sometimes in WvW) because it can provide all boons, conditions and damage needed; while is not used in optimized group content because would gives redundant boons and in PvP because is "slow" (the same problem of the reaper's greatsword) and writ of persistence is overnerfed.

[Falseprophet.1502]

19 hours ago, hash.8462 said:

I don't see the the removal of the symbol from AA as an "easy fix", it will just make the weapon unusable in every part of the game also killing it in the niches that are using it at the mement, unless you do a complete overhaul of skills and traits.

Apart of glacial heart there is no specific hammer's trait because that weapon's damage is traited trough symbols; if you just remove the symbol from there it doesn't matters if the AA chains is as fast as thief dagger AA, you won't even reach the same dps because more than half of the damage is done by the traited symbol itself, and that without all the others buffs that traited symbols can provide.

That weapon is mainly used in solo and random party PvE builds (and sometimes in WvW) because it can provide all boons, conditions and damage needed; while is not used in optimized group content because would gives redundant boons and in PvP because is "slow" (the same problem of the reaper's greatsword) and writ of persistence is overnerfed.

 

 

But it wouldn't make it unusable. This is where you don't understand and are very mistaken. You fail to understand why hammer lags behind and isn't competitive in comparison to any other guardian weapon. It's because of the AA being attached to the symbol. Here is what I posted well over four months ago. 

 

On 8/26/2022 at 10:30 AM, Falseprophet.1502 said:

Go try benching with hammer right now. Use the standard raid set up with food. AA first. This should be around 22k-23k  if you use core guard (radiance/zeal/virtues). Now, do a second test, same set up, then integrate hammer skills 2-4 into the rotation in between each auto-attack symbol drop (I averaged between 20k-21k). You actually lose DPS doing this.

 

Now, detach symbol and put it to the end of hammer 2 (Mighty Blow). In my post above, you would obviously balance the symbol to match the cooldown of Mighty Blow (like I stated in my post), this would keep DPS the same. This wouldn't change ANYTHING you guys claim on this forum (especially this garbage you wrote: "That weapon is mainly used in solo and random party PvE builds (and sometimes in WvW) because it can provide all boons, conditions and damage needed." If you truly believe it provides all boons, conditions, and damage -- wouldn't you think this post would not exist and that every single person in the game would be playing hammer guardian?). Detaching the symbol from AA would allow you to further tweak the AA and integrate the skills they buffed in August 2022, making the weapon a much more competitive choice. If you're talking about PvP/WvW, it would make the weapon better because you're never just autoattacking to get symbols off. It would make the burst MUCH better. 

 

Also, you would never run Writ of Persistence in any DPS build. Your post is riddled with insane inaccuracies. 

 

 

[hash.8462]

My bad, since you've already decided that since the hammer is not a support weapon and therefore has to be used as a dps weapon, I guess there's no point in explaining why as a solo or support weapon it's not bad at all... I'm also assuming you never use solo builds or play with casual players so I guess it's pointless for me to continue discussing that.

 

[Gehenna.3625]

32 minutes ago, hash.8462 said:

My bad, since you've already decided that since the hammer is not a support weapon and therefore has to be used as a dps weapon, I guess there's no point in explaining why as a solo or support weapon it's not bad at all... I'm also assuming you never use solo builds or play with casual players so I guess it's pointless for me to continue discussing that.

 

Well mace/shield and staff are definitely the support weapons. And all main weapons have symbols. Just because Hammer gives protection doesn't make it a support weapon in my eyes. It would have to have something more than that. I mean both sword/shield and staff have way more support options.

What I see, when I see the hammer skills is that skill 2-5 are CC skills (skill 2 upgraded to Glacial Blow). Also skill 4 and 5 benefit from the Glacial Heart trait. So for me this weapon is all about CC really. So then the question becomes, is CC support? Well according to the GW2 Wiki it's not. But they list 3 elements: damage, control and support. And going by GW2's definition I think it's clear that this is a control weapon.

For the record: I do play solo builds and play with casuals most of the time. 

 

[hash.8462]

1 hour ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Well mace/shield and staff are definitely the support weapons. And all main weapons have symbols. Just because Hammer gives protection doesn't make it a support weapon in my eyes. It would have to have something more than that. I mean both sword/shield and staff have way more support options.

You are right, but is not only protection, when Hammer is traited with Writ of Persistence it can also heal, symbols can overlap each other and you can drop a large 4 sec symbol (hit 5 times) every 1.85 sec (2.8s base speed + quickness) traiggering Writ of Persistence about 2.7 times per second to 5 allies (and of course 5 foes); I'm not saying that is the best one, but at the same time is also not so bad as people continue to say.

Edited January 5, 2023 by hash.8462

[Falseprophet.1502]

4 hours ago, hash.8462 said:

My bad, since you've already decided that since the hammer is not a support weapon and therefore has to be used as a dps weapon, I guess there's no point in explaining why as a solo or support weapon it's not bad at all... I'm also assuming you never use solo builds or play with casual players so I guess it's pointless for me to continue discussing that.

 

 

Maybe you're hellbent on your own biases while refusing to realistically see things while you post things that are just wrong? (reminder: you still think hammer gives all boons, conditions, AND DAMAGE needed).  Also, very much casual who plays solo. I think the difference between you and I, is that I actually play Guardian. 

 

Here, let me make it a little easier for you and use ArenaNet's words when they tried to "balance" hammer. Please pay attention to the following context clues: "hammer improvements," and "close the gap between it and OTHER DAMAGING weapons."

August 23, 2022 patch notes from ArenaNet:"The greatsword damage increases benefit Dragonhunter builds, and hammer improvements will help close the gap between it and other damaging weapons while living up to that weighty feel a hammer should have."

 

Except these did not help at all, it actually kept the weapon in the same state because you're forced to auto-attack for the symbol.

 

2 hours ago, hash.8462 said:

You are right, but is not only protection, when Hammer is traited with Writ of Persistence it can also heal, symbols can overlap each other and you can drop a large 4 sec symbol (hit 5 times) every 1.85 sec (2.8s base speed + quickness) traiggering Writ of Persistence about 2.7 times per second to 5 allies (and of course 5 foes); I'm not saying that is the best one, but at the same time is also not so bad as people continue to say.

 

Why are you so focused on a traitline? Your argument would be much better if you just left hammer out of the equation and just said "Honor is a SUPPORT traitline." If I took your argument of Hammer is support because we have Writ of Persistence, then that sort of argument would hold true for ever other weapon guardian has. Sword would be a support weapon with Writ of Persistence. Greatsword would be a support weapon with Writ of Persistence. Axe would be a support weapon with Writ of Persistence. Longbow would be a support weapon with Writ of Persistence (Ooh, this one has just as much CC as Hammer, must be a support weapon!). Should I go on?

Edited January 5, 2023 by Falseprophet.1502

[hash.8462]

20 minutes ago, Falseprophet.1502 said:

reminder: you still think hammer gives all boons, conditions, AND DAMAGE needed

What are you talking about? I never said that hammer give all that, but that the whole build does, and never said all conditions.

With Firebrand, Zeal and Honor, the right runes and hammer you can have Permament: Protection, 25 Might, Fury, Vigor, Regeneration and Quickness (some others, but not permanent) and, since is a power build, you can easily give 25 stack of vulnerability and that is all you need; damage is just 10k per second, not much but since this is a solo build that can facetank all maguuma hero points is not enough? Or you are just trolling?

By the way, no other guardian weapon can drop a symbol every 2 seconds so no other weapon can do the same.

Edited January 5, 2023 by hash.8462

[Falseprophet.1502]

On 1/4/2023 at 1:15 AM, hash.8462 said:

That weapon is mainly used in solo and random party PvE builds (and sometimes in WvW) because it can provide all boons, conditions and damage needed; while is not used in optimized group content because would gives redundant boons and in PvP because is "slow" (the same problem of the reaper's greatsword) and writ of persistence is overnerfed.

 

Your words not mine. Hammer does not do this.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I don't like hammer for casual pve because of the slowness, feels bad to use. I'd rather run my axe firebrand. 

[hash.8462]

1 minute ago, Falseprophet.1502 said:

 

Your words not mine. Hammer does not do this.

Whay you don't understand with the word "NEEDED"? What you need is there, everything else is optional.

maybe just a misunderstanding?

[draxynnic.3719]

On 1/4/2023 at 8:41 AM, Falseprophet.1502 said:

 

Then get ready to accept it as never being a truly viable weapon. Having weapons just fill rare niches, like you've detailed, is so antithetical to this game's balance philosophy.  Subsequently, no other guardian weapon functions like this. There is a reason why the most recent "buffs" on 8/23/2022, weren't actually buffs in PvE when they were trying to "help close the gap between it and other damaging weapons." This also debunks this fallacy of this weapon being lumped in the "support category." The reason being that Guardian has too many modifiers that are contingent upon symbol uptime thus meaning it is not worth weaving those skills because it prevents symbol uptime. 

 

Removing the symbol from the AA and then attaching it to the end of Hammer 2 and balancing the damage of the symbol and to last three to four seconds, will not take away this far cry that people have whilst assuming this is some "support" weapon (it's 2023, this isn't a support weapon, maybe it was six years ago when the protection uptime was marginally attractive for fractals or some other instanced content). It would substantially improve this weapon and it would be such an easy fix. 

 

 

Make hammer behave like every other power DPS weapon in the guardian's armory, and you know what the result would be? It would be competing with every other power DPS weapon in the guardian's armory. A profession really only needs two power DPS specialised melee weapons, and for guardian that's greatsword and sword. If you had your way, and hammer was made to be a straight DPS weapon, then one of two things will happen. Either it won't be as good as either of those, and it won't get used. Or it will be better than one of them, and then either sword or greatsword will be pushed out. When you've got four melee weapons before elite specialisations, they can't all be the best DPS weapon.

The solution to this is to have, you guessed it, niches. Warrior hammer had the same problem for a long time, but now it's seeing more use... because it has a particular set of traits and accompanying build that it works really well with. If you're not leveraging that particular build or traits, though, you're probably still going to be using greatsword or axes.

Guardian hammer's niche is that it produces symbols in quick succession, which gives it a very strong synergy with Writ of Persistence in particular (seriously, that's more of a hammer trait than Glacial Blow has ever been). Like it or not, that puts hammer in the position of being a DPS/support, or at least DPS/sustain, hybrid weapon. Almost like granting a defensive boon was a hint to its purpose. Maybe that's not to your liking, but sword and greatsword are there when you want a conventional straight DPS weapon. Your 'easy fix' would kill that trait synergy and put hammer in a position where either it manages to outDPS sword or greatsword, hence putting one of those in the proverbial bin, or it doesn't.

The main reason hammer doesn't see a lot of use is that it doesn't (currently) offer a lot of synergy with the existing elite specs - it lacks its equivalent of Spellbreaker.

[hash.8462]

1 minute ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

I don't like hammer for casual pve because of the slowness, feels bad to use. I'd rather run my axe firebrand. 

Wiki says the AA has the same length (both are about 2.8sec) but I've never checked ingame, on the other skills I have to agree they feel slow. Anyway is a matter of taste, personally I like both.

[draxynnic.3719]

3 minutes ago, hash.8462 said:

Wiki says the AA has the same length (both are about 2.8sec) but I've never checked ingame, on the other skills I have to agree they feel slow. Anyway is a matter of taste, personally I like both.

I think the distinction is that hammer puts more of the time on the final swing which takes a while, while for axe it's mostly in the aftercasts.

[hash.8462]

9 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think the distinction is that hammer puts more of the time on the final swing which takes a while, while for axe it's mostly in the aftercasts.

I've just checked ingame, the length of the full AA is the same, but you are right it seems more fluid because all attacks have the same speed.